Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

[danieldemol]

"Baha'is reject"

Bahais are human beings, they are free to have any belief they like.
Likewise I don't agree with them.

I would like to ask, which one is God among Krishna, Jesus and Bahaullh, please?
There is no compulsion to respond it, only respond if one wills to do it.

Regards

Mohammedans are also human beings, free to have any belief they like.

Perhaps your own reply to the question you ask is sufficient, or have you forgotten?

Agreed.
If Baha'ullah is not literally God, and I appreciate one's stance on Baha'ullah not being literally God...

In other words according to our prior agreement, none of them are in any literal sense God.
Kind regards,
Dan

 

[stvdv]

Christianity, Islam and Baha'i notwithstanding, in Judaism it is possible for everyone to become prophets (at least, if you were born before the destruction of the First Temple). There used to be prophet-training camps where you can go to train to become a prophet. Prophets-in-training are references in 2 King 2:3, 4:1 and 6:1. The only exception to that I know of is Jeremiah who, due to a dearth of available already qualified prophets, was pre-programmed from pregnancy to eventually be able to prophecy (Jer. 1:5).
For Judaism, you don't need to be unique to become a prophet. You just need to be willing to put in the effort to become one. According to a tradition from the Talmud, over the years when prophecy was possible, there were 1.2 million prophets. So, definitely not as special as later religions make it out to be.

For a moment I thought, wow Judaism is different here; everyone can become a prophet [even Christians, Muslims, Bahais, Atheists]. How nice this inclusiveness. Kind of surprised me [in a pleasant way]. But then I saw before "destruction of the First Temple". Bummer.

So, this makes we wonder why HUMANS took this part out of the Scripture. Can't be coincidental. Quite a big part IMO.
My first guess is "They want to control the masses". Thinking along this line, I can imagine that Christianity/Islam did not reinstate this part.

My Master has declared "One of the reasons I incarnated is to correct the errors in the scriptures". He did declare "All can be Messengers of God". I really like this inclusiveness. This lack of exclusiveness. Feels to me like "the key to peace on earth". That was also the feeling when being in His ashram for 10 years. All religions together in Love and harmony. Not discussing the differences but focus on "Unity in Diversity".

 

[Trailblazer]

Although I agree with others that numbers are not all important we need to consider that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and and set to overtake Christianity as the largest religion later on this century. What strikes me is how it has endured for over 1,400 years and adapted itself to so many different cultures.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...e-the-worlds-fastest-growing-religious-group/

The big question though is whether or not it will properly adapt to the modern world with rising standards of education and propserity.

I need to learn more about Muhammad and Islam. My husband has this book I am going to read written by a Hand of the Cause.
Muhammad and the Course of Islam
by H M Balyuzi (Author)

https://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Course-Islam-H-Balyuzi/dp/0853984786

This book contains a full biography of the Prophet and a history of Islam from the years of His mission to the Nineteenth century.

 

[siti]

in Judaism it is possible for everyone to become prophets (at least, if you were born before the destruction of the First Temple).

That's right - Numbers chapter 11 alone specifically mentions at least 73 divinely appointed prophets - Moses (of course), 70 elders at the tabernacle and Eldad and Medad in the camp. Presumably Aaron and Miriam who were also prophets were around because they spring up in Chapter 12 griping about Moses' wife - which ends up with God striking Miriam with leprosy. So that means there were at least 75 prophets delivering God's word to them. The wayward Israelites couldn't turn round without bumping into a divinely appointed messenger - but it didn't help - God still ended up having no choice but to smite them with a "very great plague".

 

[Trailblazer]

The idea of "divine messengers" as understood in Abrahamic religions doesn't translate very well into my religious tradition. The Abrahamic religions seem to assume only certain special people ever receive messages from the gods (pardon, God in their case). My tradition assumes that everyone receives messages from the gods and everyone is a "messenger."

Anyone can “say” anything. What actual evidence does anyone have that indicates that they got messages from (God) gods or that they are a messenger of the gods (God)?

Could someone help me understand why only certain special people would be considered conduits for God in Abrahamic traditions? Why isn't this accessible to everyone in these religions as it is in my own?

A Messenger of God is human, but more than a human. He has a human nature so He can communicate to humans and act as a mediator, but He also has a universal divine mind, which is beyond our understanding. We can understand His human side, but not His divine side.

Only the Messengers of God have a universal divine mind, heavenly intellectual power, which is beyond nature, embraces things and is cognizant of things, knows them, understands them, is aware of mysteries, realities and divine significations. A portion and share of this power comes to the righteous man through the Messengers of God.

Messengers of God are another order of God’s creation, a Being in between a man and a God. They are not like us so we cannot fully comprehend their nature. Unlike ordinary humans, whose souls come into being at the moment of conception, the souls of the Messengers of God were pre-existent in the spiritual world; there they were given the “capacity” to receive God’s revelation on earth and to communicate it to humanity in a way in which we can comprehend it. Since we are only human we can neither receive messages from God nor can we communicate God’s messages to humanity in a way that they can be understood by all. We just do not have that capacity.

This is the Baha’i belief about Messengers of God. I do not expect other people to accept it.

 

[Trailblazer]

If Bahaullah is also a Messenger, then my Guru can be a Messenger as well
0080 million = 01% is a small number [But 10 times Bahai]
And My Guru did indeed set up free education in India, and Free Super Speciality Hospitals and Free Drinking water projects

I rather believe that we are all messengers of God. And we need no external "something" to reach our Goal. The Power is within.
But I do agree it is easier to have someone do the heavy "lifting" for us. And finding out what and how to "lift"
But it's also kind of fun and challenging to find out all ourselves.

And if humans can let go "numbers" (mine bigger than yours), I think we have much more "peace" on earth.

I did not say that Muhammad was a Messenger just because 22% of the world population are Muslims. I said that 22% of the world population are not just following some guy. In other words, there has to be a reason why that many people believe in Muhammad.

No, I do not think it is good to compare numbers and say the biggest religion is the best. Bigger is not always better.

All religions are small in the first few centuries so that is no indication that Baha’u’llah was not a Messenger of God. There were no many Christians in the first few centuries either but I believe that Jesus was a Messenger of God. The Baha’i Faith has grown faster than Christianity because we now have mass communications, but people are still the same. They cling to their old religions like a baby blanket and that is the primary reason that the Baha’i Faith has not grown faster, the other reason is that many people do not even know about it. With all the religions these days that one can find on the internet, why would they be attracted to the Baha’i Faith unless they were searching for a religion and it had what they were looking for (very rare these days) or unless someone they knew told them about it and explained what it was all about?

Atheists are nowhere near 15% of the world population:

According to sociologists ArielaKeysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists). Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

I do not believe we are all Messengers of God or ever can be, although a portion of their divine power comes to the righteous man through them.

I explained why ordinary humans cannot be Messengers in my post to Quintessence: #45 Trailblazer, A moment ago

 

[siti]

In other words, there has to be a reason why that many people believe in Muhammad.

Yes - Adrian already provided the answer to that: hype.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet.
Wow, that really narrows down the field a bit. It also makes many people not considered prophets messengers, even if they aren't religious.

Who were these many messengers you refer to who trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge?

While I come from Abrahamic traditions, it is the conclusion I've come to as well. The whole "special messenger" thing just reeks of "self-serving tripe".

What did they get for themselves besides persecution, tribulation and suffering? What selfish motives did Jesus have for example, Muhammad, Baha’u’llah? Did they get rich or have temporal power?

 

[Trailblazer]

I will skip the commentary for now. I believe Muhammed is a messenger of God because the words have a godly ring to them. I believe once a person becomes accustomed to the way God speaks then he will perceive it is God speaking. In addition the Holy Spirit confirms the Qu'ran as the word of God.

If the Holy Spirit confirms the Qur’an as the Word of God Then why do so many Christians reject Muhammad?

I agree we can know by the scriptures that it is God speaking through Muhammad. The same applies to the scriptures that Bab and Baha’u’llah wrote. They are unmistakably the Word of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe an argument based on numbers is not valid. Millions of Catholics believe in the Papacy but that doesn't validate it. I don't believe anyone follows Muhammad directly but do through the Qu'ran indirectly.

I believe I am not sure how great he is but by writing the Qu'ran he has influenced a large number of people.

My point was simply that over one fifth of the world population is not likely to be wrong about Muhammad being a Messenger of God, not any more than one third of the world population is not likely to be wrong about Jesus being a Messenger of God.

Denominations and sects within the religions are a separate issue. They do not represent what the Messenger actually revealed in scriptures. They are man-made.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'll go with 'Yes' as I believe he did receive revelation from the angel Gabriel.

I fully agree.

 

[Trailblazer]

Personally, I have no doubt that Muhammad was no messenger from God.

Or, at least, he was no messenger from any God that I would want to consider treating as a real and worthy reference. From all appearances, Muhammad's conception of divinity was not very healthy and not very advisable.

If there is a God with a valid message and that God somewhat resembles the expectations of Ibrahim, it is self-evident that its message is expressed better, often and widely by people far less famous than Muhammad and the other prophets acknowledged by Islaam.

The messages of the Qur'an and of Islaam are simply not nearly enlightened enough to fulfill my expectations for support of such a bold claim.

To the extent that I spend some time thinking or talking about the Qur'an and Islaam, it is out of consideration for Muslims, not for the Qur'an, Muhammad or Allah.

With all due respect, as my husband always says, it is not a matter of what we think, what we want, or what we expect, it is a matter of what actually is. If God revealed Himself through the Abrahamic Messengers then He did. It makes sense that the most current revelations from God represent the One True God, as opposed to the older revelations that were revealed for an entirely different society, a world unlike we know today.

You can advocate people letting go of theism but you cannot change the fact that it represents the reality from God, if it does. You can say that you do not like theism but you cannot order up something different from God, like a made to order burger at a restaurant.

The same of course applies to Muhammad or any other claimant to be a Messenger of God... If He was sent by God it was God’s Will, so no nothing people believe or disbelieve can ever change that... Thus it would seem logical to me that we try to determine if Muhammad or any of the other Messengers were actually sent by God rather than discounting them before doing a thorough investigation..

But that is just how I think...

 

[Trailblazer]

Uhhhh okay. Sounds legit.

Science and Islam in Conflict

Science owes much to both Christianity and the Middle Ages

I am confused. How does Islam conflict with science? How does science owe much to Christianity?

 

[Tumah]

For a moment I thought, wow Judaism is different here; everyone can become a prophet [even Christians, Muslims, Bahais, Atheists]. How nice this inclusiveness. Kind of surprised me [in a pleasant way]. But then I saw before "destruction of the First Temple". Bummer.

So, this makes we wonder why HUMANS took this part out of the Scripture. Can't be coincidental. Quite a big part IMO.
My first guess is "They want to control the masses". Thinking along this line, I can imagine that Christianity/Islam did not reinstate this part.

My Master has declared "One of the reasons I incarnated is to correct the errors in the scriptures". He did declare "All can be Messengers of God". I really like this inclusiveness. This lack of exclusiveness. Feels to me like "the key to peace on earth". That was also the feeling when being in His ashram for 10 years. All religions together in Love and harmony. Not discussing the differences but focus on "Unity in Diversity".

I'm not sure if you understood what I meant. I didn't mean to say that everyone in the world can become a prophet and I didn't mean to say that after the destruction of the First Temple, only certain people could become prophets. Judaism isn't an inclusive religion nor does it claim to be.

What I did mean to say was that all Jewish people could become prophets (or according to some, those who serve the Jewish G-d even if they themselves aren't Jewish) - until the destruction of the First Temple at which point not even Jewish people can become prophets. There was a time period where we believe there were also non-Jewish prophets such as Balaam, but he was the last of those as we. The point of my previous post was just that in Judaism prophecy isn't reserved for unique individuals as the poster I was responding to suggested.

 

[stvdv]

Is Abdu'l-Baha's commentary reasonable? Should Muhammad be considered a Messenger of God?

We don't know anything for sure after 1400 years

One thing I do believe is that there are a few billionaires who decide what happens on earth. Control, power and money.
That is not a new thing, has been there for a long time.

Considering this, I would not be surprised if some very rich ones decide which religions grows how much and when
“If my sons did not want wars, there would be none.” Gutle Schnaper Rothschild
https://toolwielder.wordpress.com/2...here-would-be-none-gutle-schnaper-rothschild/
I don't know how long back they go, the "Rothschild". But this says something.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes - Adrian already provided the answer to that: hype.

That does not make any logical sense to me...
Of course, it is obvious to me that the Qur'an is divinely revealed... YMMV.

 

[stvdv]

I'm not sure if you understood what I meant. I didn't mean to say that everyone in the world can become a prophet and I didn't mean to say that after the destruction of the First Temple, only certain people could become prophets. Judaism isn't an inclusive religion nor does it claim to be.

What I did mean to say was that all Jewish people could become prophets (or according to some, those who serve the Jewish G-d even if they themselves aren't Jewish) - until the destruction of the First Temple at which point not even Jewish people can become prophets. There was a time period where we believe there were also non-Jewish prophets such as Balaam, but he was the last of those as we. The point of my previous post was just that in Judaism prophecy isn't reserved for unique individuals as the poster I was responding to suggested.

Thanks for clarifying. This is more clear for me, it confirms that I did understood correct the first time [after rereading it a few times]

 

[Tumah]

Thanks for clarifying. This is more clear for me, it confirms that I did understood correct the first time [after rereading it a few times]

Oh, ok. From your response earlier it looked like you thought I had said that everyone in the world could become a prophet until the destruction of the first Temple after which only Jewish people can. So I just wanted to make sure.

 

[LuisDantas]

I did not say that Muhammad was a Messenger just because 22% of the world population are Muslims. I said that 22% of the world population are not just following some guy. In other words, there has to be a reason why that many people believe in Muhammad.

No, I do not think it is good to compare numbers and say the biggest religion is the best. Bigger is not always better.

All religions are small in the first few centuries so that is no indication that Baha’u’llah was not a Messenger of God. There were no many Christians in the first few centuries either but I believe that Jesus was a Messenger of God. The Baha’i Faith has grown faster than Christianity because we now have mass communications, but people are still the same. They cling to their old religions like a baby blanket and that is the primary reason that the Baha’i Faith has not grown faster, the other reason is that many people do not even know about it. With all the religions these days that one can find on the internet, why would they be attracted to the Baha’i Faith unless they were searching for a religion and it had what they were looking for (very rare these days) or unless someone they knew told them about it and explained what it was all about?

Atheists are nowhere near 15% of the world population:

According to sociologists ArielaKeysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists). Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

I do not believe we are all Messengers of God or ever can be, although a portion of their divine power comes to the righteous man through them.

I explained why ordinary humans cannot be Messengers in my post to Quintessence: #45 Trailblazer, A moment ago

Excuse me... are you really trying to claim that because there are considerably more Muslims than (overt) atheists it must follow that there is more merit to Islaam than to atheism?

 

[LuisDantas]

With all due respect, as my husband always says, it is not a matter of what we think, what we want, or what we expect, it is a matter of what actually is. If God revealed Himself through the Abrahamic Messengers then He did. It makes sense that the most current revelations from God represent the One True God, as opposed to the older revelations that were revealed for an entirely different society, a world unlike we know today.

You can advocate people letting go of theism but you cannot change the fact that it represents the reality from God, if it does. You can say that you do not like theism but you cannot order up something different from God, like a made to order burger at a restaurant.

The same of course applies to Muhammad or any other claimant to be a Messenger of God... If He was sent by God it was God’s Will, so no nothing people believe or disbelieve can ever change that... Thus it would seem logical to me that we try to determine if Muhammad or any of the other Messengers were actually sent by God rather than discounting them before doing a thorough investigation..

But that is just how I think...

What part of "I have no doubt" evaded your understanding?