Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

[Dawnofhope]

18.000 replies. Wow, and still not everything was said. God/Messengers must be great. Keep you all on your toes for 18.000 posts is proof enough

The Thread certainly kept us very busy for endless hours backwards and forwards lol.

The initial concern that had a Hindu and Buddhist triggered was their objection to Baha'i theology including Krishna and Buddha as manifestations of God.

 

[Spiderman]

Was Muhammad a messenger of God?

I love and forgive Muhammad. I want to meet him some day in heaven.

But to consider him a messenger of God is just too much an insult to God imho...

 

[Spiderman]

Was Muhammad a messenger of God?

I love and forgive Muhammad. I want to meet him some day in heaven.

But to consider him a messenger of God is just too much an insult to God imho...

Id think, if God was going to choose a final Prophet to start the true Religion, he would choose someone more like @stvdv

 

[Dawnofhope]

Was Muhammad a messenger of God?

I love and forgive Muhammad. I want to meet him some day in heaven.

But to consider him a messenger of God is just too much an insult to God imho...

I was thinking when you felt less triggered about Islam you might like to consider what Abdu'l-Baha said in regards Muhammad.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-7.html

I understand if you don't want to change your views on Muhammad for now. Sometimes its good to look at person from a different angle though.

 

[Spiderman]

I was thinking when you felt less triggered about Islam you might like to consider what Abdu'l-Baha said in regards Muhammad.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-7.html

I understand if you don't want to change your views on Muhammad for now. Sometimes its good to look at person from a different angle though.

Thanks, ill check it out... I admire Abdu'l-Baha as a better man than myself from what I know of him

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks, ill check it out... I admire Abdu'l-Baha as a better man than myself from what I know of him

I brief discussed Abdu'l-Baha with Kelly...

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/was-muhammad-a-messenger-of-god.210265/page-12#post-5690803

 

[siti]

I think you lost me a little with all the alleging!

...yeah - lost the track of the thread again too...we were up to the point where the evidence you presented for Muhammad as a Messenger had struck out on two of the points Abdu'l Baha (divinely commissioned interpreter of the divine messengers) had selected specifically to prove that Muhammad was a Messenger of God. I had invited you to post a third - perhaps decisive - piece of evidence to suggest that Muhammad was...

I think - if we want to avoid the kind of repetitious to-ing and fro-ing of earlier threads, a summary might be useful here:

Abdu'l Baha had presented a case to establish Muhammad's credentials as divine messenger:

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-7.html

Notwithstanding this transcript of the evidence he gave, other Baha'is thought that popular acceptance might be evidence in favour of Muhammad's claim but I think we all pretty much agreed that if 22% in favour was a strong case, 78% against was clearly stronger.

You chose to highlight Abdu'l Baha's claim that Muhammad had stamped out infanticide as worthy of consideration - but it turned out (from the very evidence you presented that neither was infanticide as widespread an issue in the Arab world of Muhammad's time, nor was it eradicated as a result of his teaching. On top of that, in an attempt to bolster the claim that Muhammad was (by divine assistance) way ahead of his time, Abdu'l Baha claimed that infanticide was almost unknown among indigenous American peoples which is patently false.

Lastly, so far, we considered the compelling evidence that Muhammad had revealed a heliocentric model of the solar system - this too turned out to be - to use your own word "hyperbole" - which is just a nice way of saying he lied. He didn't actually lie of course - he just had no idea what he was talking about.

So really I suppose that should be strike three already - but we're all nice people around here so we'll give you another chance:

Please post one more piece of compelling evidence in favour of the Baha'i claim that Muhammad was a Messenger of God.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The Bab has the fate of a martyr, this does not mean to us that He was abandoned by God

But that's my point: ignoble deaths mean God's anger unless it's someone you want to listen to. You're hardly the only religion to be guilty of this hypocrisy. Jesus said people who call others "fools" will go to hell. He called people fools. Guess what, kids?

Abdu'l-Baha was a powerful advocate for reconciliation and unity between peoples of all faiths and worldviews.

I can admire the goals of lots of people without wanting to follow them. I don't even like my own messiah all that much anymore, but I don't blame the Way for this.

Arius lost and his beliefs declared a heresy.

Which is a shame because I feel orthodoxy was less accurate on this belief.

You do belittle Christianity. And you belittle all older religions even at once; that means belittling pretty much everything.

I don't mind reading criticisms of my religion. I honestly welcome the concept of refusing to bootlick. However, I finally had to put a person on ignore because I couldn't take one more whine about the lack of consistent logic being displayed isn't their fault.

It just kept coming off like saying "I'm saying lots of racist things but I'm not a racist because I choose not to read the part where the CSA specifically used racist logic to leave the US." This is NOT to say the person was racist, because sometimes I get the feeling that hypotheticals don't work on some people.

I am not a Muslim nor a Bahai. I do believe Muhammad and Bahaullah were Messengers of God. But what does that mean to me. It does not mean that they were born "God". It just means that when they were at a certain age, that God gave them some information in visions or dream or voices or knowing even. Then they had to remember it correct, write it down correct, translate correct etc. Easily errors sneak in IMO.

Exactly. They had some light bulbs going off over their heads, but that's about it, even for my messiah.

I love and forgive Muhammad. I want to meet him some day in heaven.

I don't feel comfortable forgiving someone who didn't hurt me. That should be left up to any actual victims. However, I once had this dream that I met Muhammad. The entire dream was in Arabic, which sucked, because I don't speak it. I finally get frustrated (partly because my dialogue was in Arabic too) that I didn't understand what was being said because the only Arabic I knew were "Muhammad, Quran, and Allah." It felt like angels started paraphrasing the conversation in my heart. Apparently, we were in his home comparing and contrasting Islam with Christianity. It was a nice conversation, no heated arguments.

 

[Dawnofhope]

...yeah - lost the track of the thread again too...we were up to the point where the evidence you presented for Muhammad as a Messenger had struck out on two of the points Abdu'l Baha (divinely commissioned interpreter of the divine messengers) had selected specifically to prove that Muhammad was a Messenger of God. I had invited you to post a third - perhaps decisive - piece of evidence to suggest that Muhammad was...

I think - if we want to avoid the kind of repetitious to-ing and fro-ing of earlier threads, a summary might be useful here:

Abdu'l Baha had presented a case to establish Muhammad's credentials as divine messenger:

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-7.html
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-7.html
Notwithstanding this transcript of the evidence he gave, other Baha'is thought that popular acceptance might be evidence in favour of Muhammad's claim but I think we all pretty much agreed that if 22% in favour was a strong case, 78% against was clearly stronger.

You chose to highlight Abdu'l Baha's claim that Muhammad had stamped out infanticide as worthy of consideration - but it turned out (from the very evidence you presented that neither was infanticide as widespread an issue in the Arab world of Muhammad's time, nor was it eradicated as a result of his teaching. On top of that, in an attempt to bolster the claim that Muhammad was (by divine assistance) way ahead of his time, Abdu'l Baha claimed that infanticide was almost unknown among indigenous American peoples which is patently false.

Lastly, so far, we considered the compelling evidence that Muhammad had revealed a heliocentric model of the solar system - this too turned out to be - to use your own word "hyperbole" - which is just a nice way of saying he lied. He didn't actually lie of course - he just had no idea what he was talking about.

So really I suppose that should be strike three already - but we're all nice people around here so we'll give you another chance:

Please post one more piece of compelling evidence in favour of the Baha'i claim that Muhammad was a Messenger of God.

I hadn't forgotten your earlier post and planned to respond when I had more time to better consider the relationship between heliocentricity, The Quran, and Islam scientists and scholars. To me it opens up a fascinating area of enquiry, so will provide a more considered response when I have the time.

I was thinking that in regards Christian theology it took me a while to develop a working understanding of the Bible. I imagine having that with the Quran will take even longer. There is that saying that fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

I'm comfortable with Abdu'l-Baha's use of hyperbole. In regards the link I posted on infanticide the most important thing is that Muhammad clearly forbade it, and it stopped.

From what I read of the link, its hard to tell who were the worst in regards infanticide, the Arab tribes, the American Indians or the Africans.

According to Islamic sources, pre-Islamic Arabian society practiced infanticide as a form of "post-partum birth control".Regarding the prevalence of this practice, we know it was "common enough among the pre-Islamic Arabs to be assigned a specific term, waʾd".Infanticide was practiced either out of destitution (thus practiced on males and females alike), or as sacrifices to gods, or as "disappointment and fear of social disgrace felt by a father upon the birth of a daughter".

Some authors believe that there is little evidence that infanticide was prevalent in pre-Islamic Arabia or early Muslim history, except for the case of the Tamim tribe, who practiced it during severe famine. Others state that "female infanticide was common all over Arabia during this period of time" (pre-Islamic Arabia), especially by burying alive a female newborn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#Arabia

In the Eastern Shoshone there was a scarcity of Indian women as a result of female infanticide.For the Maidu Native Americans twins were so dangerous that they not only killed them, but the mother as well. In the region known today as southern Texas, the Mariame Indians practiced infanticide of females on a large scale. Wives had to be obtained from neighboring groups

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#North_America

In some African societies some neonates were killed because of beliefs in evil omens or because they were considered unlucky. Twins were usually put to death in Arebo; as well as by the Nama people of South West Africa; in the Lake Victoria Nyanza region; by the Tswana in Portuguese East Africa; in some parts of Igboland, Nigeria twins were sometimes abandoned in a forest at birth (as depicted in Things Fall Apart), oftentimes one twin was killed or hidden by midwives of wealthier mothers; and by the !Kung people of the Kalahari Desert.:The Kikuyu, Kenya's most populous ethnic group, practiced ritual killing of twins

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#Africa

If you feel you can adjudicate then award yourself as many points as you like.

The important information Abdu'l-Baha explains of Muhammad is He is an educator of humanity and that's just what He did:

Islam Infanticide is explicitly prohibited by the Qur'an."And do not kill your children for fear of poverty; We give them sustenance and yourselves too; surely to kill them is a great wrong."Together with polytheism and homicide, infanticide is regarded as a grave sin (see 6:151 and 60:12). Infanticide is also implicitly denounced in the story of Pharaoh's slaughter of the male children of Israelites (see 2:49; 7:127; 7:141; 14:6; 28:4 ;40:25).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#Arabia

 

[stvdv]

Id think, if God was going to choose a final Prophet to start the true Religion, he would choose someone more like @stvdv

Thanks @PopeADope. That is very friendly of you to say. That was a very big "frubal" you hit me with. I'm almost knock out.

My message would be very simple "Hurt Never Help Ever"
And for people who want a little extra mental challenge
I would make the message double "Love All Serve All"
So RF 18.000 posts on Messengers won't occur again

And then I can retire from being a Messenger
I think Messengers talk to much sometimes
And if not them, then their commentators
This message is hard to misinterpret/forget

 

[siti]

If you feel you can adjudicate then award yourself as many points as you like.

The important information Abdu'l-Baha explains of Muhammad is He is an educator of humanity and that's just what He did

But both Constantine I and Valentinian had outlawed infanticide in Christendom in the 4th century - were they Messengers of God? It is not about me awarding myself points - we are considering evidence that Abdu'l Baha claims sets Muhammad apart as a divinely commissioned "educator of humanity". In any case, I believe the facts about the prevalence of infanticide in pre-Islamic Arabia are very obscure - and the image of barbarous and ignorant tribes wandering in spiritual darkness is only know to us from Islamic tradition. There is very little, if any, factual evidence to support the idea (boldly repeated by Abdu'l Baha) that such practices were any more prevalent in pre-Islamic Arabia than they were in other societies - before, during or after Muhammad's time. It may be true that Muhammad's teaching stamped out infanticide - especially among his own Arab people - but that just means he was one of very many people throughout history who have spoken against such barbarity - it is nowhere near being compelling evidence of a divine commission. So we can put that one aside.

I believe we can quite reasonably do the same with the heliocentrism thing - Muhammad simply had no idea - to judge by his words as reported in the Qur'an - whether the earth went round the sun or the sun went round the earth. And that's fine - nobody would expect him to know that - he never claimed to be an astronomer or cosmologist as far as I know. But the vague references in the Qur'an to the sun moving obviously do not suggest that he thought it stands still - as Abdu'l Baha seemed to imagine it did.

I am now - for the third time by my reckoning - asking you to pinpoint which other evidence that Abdu'l Baha presents is convincing enough to make a genuine case in favour of Muhammad's divine messenger status?

 

[stvdv]

Was Muhammad a messenger of God?
I love and forgive Muhammad. I want to meet him some day in heaven.
But to consider him a messenger of God is just too much an insult to God imho...

This reply of you made me think.

Hypothetical: God exist and God is great and God is Good [all these Omni's at his disposal] giving humans free will to mess up as much as they like
Then God is cool with it; maybe not as cool as in `over the moon` with it, just "minor" cool
If God was even a little bit "on fire [like in link below]" with His Creation we all would be ashes

Sometimes I do think "a little less free will might seem not that bad an idea"
Maybe fix "Rothenschild banking criminals" as a "dark star" on the firmament
But then again I am Glad God calls the shots and not humans [like me].
The world turns around for ages already; so God still seems in control

 

[Spiderman]

This reply of you made me think.

Hypothetical: God exist and God is great and God is Good [all these Omni's at his disposal] giving humans free will to mess up as much as they like
Then God is cool with it; maybe not as cool as in `over the moon` with it, just "minor" cool
If God was even a little bit "on fire [like in link below]" with His Creation we all would be ashes

Sometimes I do think "a little less free will might seem not that bad an idea"
Maybe fix "Rothenschild banking criminals" as a "dark star" on the firmament
But then again I am Glad God calls the shots and not humans [like me].
The world turns around for ages already; so God still seems in control

I like much of the Quran. Most is harmless. I like the book of "Mary" and the stories about baby Jesus and miracles of Jesus. But when he starts talking about murdering people like me, cutting off our hands and feet, pouring boiling water on us, crucifying us, torturing us in this and the next life, I get angry!

I wonder, what kind of people read that and act out those fantasies! What kind of God does that to people! If that is God, It makes me wish i'd never been born!

 

[stvdv]

Was Muhammad a messenger of God?
I love and forgive Muhammad. I want to meet him some day in heaven.
But to consider him a messenger of God is just too much an insult to God imho...

Hypothetical: Muhammad is not as perfect as some Muslims claim

Have you ever considered what would have happened if God did not pour so much Grace on Muhammad?

My Master used to say "People I keep close with me, I do for a reason. They are too harmful in society"
Almost nobody knows this quote of my Master, and when they hear they rather "like to forget immediately"
I love this quote. Best way to get rid of ego. But also puts in perspective certain other things in scriptures.
He also says "Those I call have been with me for many incarnations (ego ).......as Rakshasas"(ego )

I love Masters the best when they crush my ego. Not when it happens, but afterwards it's the biggest blessing

 

[danieldemol]

But that's my point: ignoble deaths mean God's anger unless it's someone you want to listen to. You're hardly the only religion to be guilty of this hypocrisy. Jesus said people who call others "fools" will go to hell. He called people fools. Guess what, kids?

The Bab and Baha'u'llah never said that martyrdom is an ignoble death, so there is no hypocrisy there. It is a strawman or false equivalence in your mind that martyrdom = ignoble death, not part of the Baha'i faith.

I would explain to you why Jesus was not a hypocrite either but this is not really the thread about Jesus, its about Muhammad.

 

[stvdv]

Abdu'l-Baha was a powerful advocate for reconciliation and unity between peoples of all faiths and worldviews.

That is what I read of Bahaullah also. I had the feeling that this was the main mission of Bahaullah "Unity in Diversity" .... "not by submission"
O SON OF MAN! Wert thou to speed through the immensity of space and traverse the expanse of heaven, yet thou wouldst find no rest save in submission to Our command and humbleness before Our Face.
Is this taken as "submission to Bahai faith" or as "submission to God [that is how I interpret it]"?

The Bab has the fate of a martyr, this does not mean to us that He was abandoned by God

Agreed.

1: But that's my point: ignoble deaths mean God's anger unless it's someone you want to listen to. You're hardly the only religion to be guilty of this hypocrisy. 2: Jesus said people who call others "fools" will go to hell. He called people fools. Guess what, kids?

1: Had to read it twice, but got it. Very true many people measure with different scales when it comes to their own guru/scripture/belief.
2a: Thanks for pointing this out. I never thought of this one before. Makes sense how you interpret it.
[BUT Jesus is a Master, so probably there is a trick out for Jesus here. Already many times my wrong verdict I had to make it right verdict. So now I always start of with "I must be wrong"]
[My first thought: Jesus said: `people` go to hell. But Jesus was not `people`[normal], He was divine (so maybe He escaped Hell on this one)]
[My Master fooled me more than 50 times with stating things "wrong from human viewpoint" but "right from divine viewpoint"]
2b: Other option [were it really Jesus words `they will go to hell`, I hardly can believe that. I really thought Hell was invented by the Church or early Rothschild-family
2c: Hypothetical: Jesus is into "saving people from going to hell". I think His best place to get them is in Hell. So He need not worry "going to Hell", it's His working place

I don't mind reading criticisms of my religion. I honestly welcome the concept of refusing to bootlick. However, I finally had to put a person on ignore because I couldn't take one more whine about the lack of consistent logic being displayed isn't their fault.

Thanks, I almost thought `I was losing it`.
Criticism of "evil acts done in name of religion" I don't mind either, even make me happy. Trashing the (whole) religion is something totally unacceptable (Freedom of Religion) IMO.

I once had this dream that I met Muhammad. The entire dream was in Arabic, which sucked, because I don't speak it. I finally get frustrated (partly because my dialogue was in Arabic too) that I didn't understand what was being said because the only Arabic I knew were "Muhammad, Quran, and Allah." It felt like angels started paraphrasing the conversation in my heart. Apparently, we were in his home comparing and contrasting Islam with Christianity. It was a nice conversation, no heated arguments.

Thanks for sharing. This must have been very special IMO. Scriptures declare "Truth can only be conveyed in Silence". So God being creative chooses an unknown language, as good as silence. I had it also, and now you mention it, I got frustrated Him telling me stuff that I wanted to know, but in Swedish. Did work out after all. God is the Greatest. Just curious, God speaking Swedish to me, was to explain a scripture to me. You the same, explaining Quran?

 

[stvdv]

1: The Thread certainly kept us very busy for endless hours backwards and forwards lol.
2: The initial concern that had a Hindu and Buddhist triggered was their objection to Baha'i theology including Krishna and Buddha as manifestations of God.

1: That was exactly my first thought; oh my God, going backwards and forwards. Specially if I were to start today on this thread from page 1).
2: I can imagine: a)Krishna needed a bit more God in it [not just Messenger] + b)Buddha needed not so much God-association probably

 

[stvdv]

Just a thought I had:

Middle Ages: Man were just very barbaric. At least my History lessons said so. Makes sense also, even some nowadays still have a bit left.

Suppose you walk into an arena with wolves, or even better tigers. What happens? Seems a silly question, but is it?

Can a saint live amid all barbaric people. Seems strange to me. Would God choose a pussycat to convert tigers?

So it seems not logical to me that Muhammad was a pussycat. He should be more like a tiger. [Story Goliath and David (killed lions with bare hands) comes to mind]

So with all the Barbaric people I think He was the same or worse. Otherwise He would have been dead in a second. Added to that He lived a long life till age 60

So I am not surprised of all the violent verses in the Quran. I would be surprised if they were clean verses though.

You can only remove a thorn with another thorn. So I don't say it was bad that Muhammad was allegedly cruel. I'd say it was needed at that time.

Please `shoot` me if I am totally wrong here. But I think it is not any more difficult than this.

Muhammad and Quran verses are cruel, because that was needed at that time. Is that needed in this time? Don't think so. Ergo.

= = =

Other thought "How come the New Testament seems so clean and without violence"
Was 700 years earlier. Must have been worse I think. Curious if original verses were that clean and non violent

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes IT - you catch on pretty quickly! So does the page I linked to contain accurate English translations of the verse from the Qur'an that Abdu'l Baha was referring to? Do any of them even giving a reasonably wide latitude of interpretation - even remotely support the argument that the Qur'an promotes a heliocentric model of the solar system? Is it not truer to suggest that, at best, this verse possibly allows - but certainly doesn't support - that interpretation.

You see how that verse is translated differently by each translator. It seems to me none of them got it completely right, or did not know what this verse is alluding to. How can an Arabic verse be translated in so many different ways?
The thing is, even today, probably most people do not know the Sun is fixed, but moving along its axis. So, these translators, most likely were unaware if this fact. They were thinking of apparent movement of Sun rise and sun set, and with that in mind, they translated this verse.

 

[Vinayaka]

You may be interested that we have a female Baha'i posting @Trailblazer . I recall you wondered if there was a reason why none of the Baha'is on the previous thread were female.

Good to know, thanks.