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Featured Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Jul 3, 2018.

?
  1. Yes

    35.1%
  2. No

    57.9%
  3. Possibly

    5.3%
  4. I don't know

    1.8%
  1. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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  2. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I wonder how long this one will go. Surely it can't beat the other one, which finally died. LoverofHumanity and Tony don't seem to be around, but it seems there are always others to step in to the shoes, start a new thread that allows for plenty of Baha'i' talk, and then just wait. It's quite the pattern now.
     
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  3. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    You're so good at prophecy, lol.
     
  4. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Correct - you have a habit of side-tracking points though - the point is not about whether ancient peoples or medieval Islamic scholars - or anyone else - had devised a heliocentric model - the question is about whether anyone did that directly or indirectly as a result of what Muhammad "revealed" as a "Messenger of God". And the answer of course is no - they did not. They failed - even on the basis of the Muhammadan revelation - to perceive of a truth that already been hinted at by ancient cosmologies stretching back (again) more than a thousand years before Muhammad. Didn't they?!!
     
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  5. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    I know - I put it down to my JW training. But that was in a previous life.
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, absolutely not. Only Christians who believe in the doctrines of the Church are deluded, because they are man-made doctrines and do not represent what Jesus ever said.

    Baha'is do not believe that other religious beleivers are deluded.
     
  7. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    How do you know what Jesus ever said?
     
  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    I personally would say they are Christian beliefs and leave it at that.
     
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  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The context of my answer to CG "Yes it does" is that Christians who believe that Jesus was God in the flesh are deluded, IMB.

    But since you brought up religious experiences, I believe that anyone who thinks that they heard from God is deluded, unless they were one of God's Chosen Messengers... As for religious experiences, I believe those are possible and I even believe that the Messengers in the spiritual world can communicate to individuals on earth. My husband told me about two experiences wherein Abdu'l-Baha communicated with him and I believe him.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I don't know what Jesus said, I only know what Jesus allegedly said, according to the Gospels.
    So what I meant is that there is no place in the Gospels where Jesus said He was God.
     
  11. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    You are referring to this statement of Abdulbaha:

    "But in the Qur’án a number of verses were revealed which contradicted the Ptolemaic system. One of them, “The sun moves in a fixed place of its own”,[6] alludes to the fixity of the sun and its movement around an axis. "
    Some answered questions
     
  12. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Nice to see you pop in.

    I'm certainly not wanting another marathon thread either. I like it when people give their views, have some informative discussion, and if opinions differ, agree to disagree. No alternative motive other than a thought provoking discussion either.:)

    You may be interested that we have a female Baha'i posting @Trailblazer . I recall you wondered if there was a reason why none of the Baha'is on the previous thread were female.
     
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  13. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Good and important information which would have been helpful at the beginning of the marathon thread;). But then again it would have not been the same thread anymore:)
     
  14. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    FYI @Vinayaka , @siti, @InvestigateTruth , myself and quite a few others participated in this mammoth thread for much of last year.

    https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/how-are-these-great-beings-explained.195981/

    It had nearly 18,000 posts! None of us want to go down that rabbit hole again lol.

    This thread is a drop in the ocean by comparison!
     
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  15. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Oh Adrian - I am disappointed - when I made a point about the connection between delusion and religious beliefs I got a full blown lecture on why DSM5 specifically excludes religious beliefs (no matter how bizarre) from symptoms betraying a delusional state of mind - your fellow Baha'i gets away with "it just means they believe differently"?

    Anyway, since I didn't bring it up this time, I don't feel quite so reticent in following up - especially since we are discussing Muhammad's Messengership (is that a new word I just made up?)

    If Jesus did not allegedly allege that he was God and those who allegedly do allege that he was even though he allegedly does not allege that in any of his alleged sayings - allegedly - do indeed allege that he was, is it appropriate to allege delusion on their part? And if so, could not the same argument also be alleged against people who allege that Muhammad was allegedly the Messenger of God in a manner in which none of the alleged sayings of Muhammad allegedly allege?
     
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  16. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Yes IT - you catch on pretty quickly! So does the page I linked to contain accurate English translations of the verse from the Qur'an that Abdu'l Baha was referring to? Do any of them even giving a reasonably wide latitude of interpretation - even remotely support the argument that the Qur'an promotes a heliocentric model of the solar system? Is it not truer to suggest that, at best, this verse possibly allows - but certainly doesn't support - that interpretation.
     
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  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Your mammoth thread is not as long as a thread on another forum I used to post on entitled "Why Jesus is not a God." It has 32, 991 posts... It and it has been going since December 2009 and it is still going, with new posts added each day. Essentially it is a debate between a couple of Christians and a couple of Jews.:D
     
  18. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    18.000 replies. Wow, and still not everything was said. God/Messengers must be great. Keep you all on your toes for 18.000 posts is proof enough:)
     
  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    I think you lost me a little with all the alleging!

    The trinity is a big point of difference the JWs have with Christianity and that presumably extends to rejecting the doctrine of Divinity of Christ. I'm sure you are very familiar with all the arguments and nuances around the Divinity of Christ.

    There's good scholarship around the authorship of all four gospels that plausibly suggests none of the authors were eye witnesses to the events they witnessed. They are most likely second or third generation Christians.

    Regardless of authorship there are apparently conflicting statements in the Gospels regards Christ's Divinity..

    The logos concerning John 1:1, John1:3 and John 1:14 is perhaps the strongest argument for the Divinity of Christ. There are many other verses the Christians use.

    Some of the verses that indicate that Jesus and God are not one and the same are:

    1 John 4:12
    "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

    Mark 13:32
    But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

    1 KIng 8:27
    But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

    Malachi 3:6
    For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

    So scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

    Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

    Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
    "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

    John 5:19
    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    John 8:28
    In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    In this manner Moses also speaks as God

    Deuteronomy 29:2-6

    Muhammad was quite explicit in His rejection of the Divinity of Christ, the trinity and His Sonship.

    I started a couple of threads recently to explore the different theologies between Islam and Christianity.

    https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...hristianity-regarding-concepts-of-god.210197/

    https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...hristianity-regarding-concepts-of-god.210197/
     
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  20. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    The Christians are definitely the odd one compared to Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. Still we all have our beliefs that are just that...beliefs.:)
     
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