Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

[stvdv]

Do you even realize how disrespectful it is to accuse people of proselytizing?

Sometimes the truth hurts. You can not turn this back to me. You proselytize. I just confirm this. Don't proselytize if you don't like it [friendly advice]

And I agree, Adrian is very "cool" about it, he admits that it happens. To recognize is the first step to stop it.

 

[stvdv]

Never did Adrian or any other Baha’i belittle anyone or say “I know best which religion is best for you.”

You never belittle others' belief ? Just look at your reply below

It is more special than older beliefs because it is the message for this age in history. That is what people apparently do not understand or care about. But that does not negate its importance.

If you do not see the belittling here, then I am blind or you are blind ["It" stands for Bahai]. You repeatedly say I am wrong. Let us solve it now. @Trailblazer

Reminds me of "Animal Farm (Orwell)". Animals took over; humans were arrogant. Pigs ruled and claimed "All animals are equal, but pigs are more equal".

If I am wrong, I definitely correct my mistake. But here I am like 100% sure I am right.

 

[Dawnofhope]

In a sense Abdu'l-Baha, the son of Baha'u'llah is my guru. He is the perfect example of what it means to be a Baha'i. He taught me to neither give offence nor take offence.

If we go back to the original OP Abdu'l-Baha taught the Baha'is from the West about who Muhammad really was. In the OP I shared the link as to what he said and I left it wide open for people to agree or disagree. Its an opportunity for us all to learn more about Muhammad or not.

The thread has now become about "Do Baha'is proselytize or do they not?" so not about Muhammad anymore.

In regards Proselytizing Baha'is I've said all I want to say. If this is something a number of people feel strongly about they are free to start a thread on it.

Otherwise I'm impressed with the breath and quality of answers that related specifically to Muhammad and I feel like I have learnt a lot. The life of Muhammad is a difficult topic in these days when Islam has often been in the news for all the wrong reasons. Thank you all for participating.

 

[stvdv]

In a sense Abdu'l-Baha, the son of Baha'u'llah is my guru. He is the perfect example of what it means to be a Baha'i. He taught me to neither give offence nor take offence.

If we go back to the original OP Abdu'l-Baha taught the Baha'is from the West about who Muhammad really was. In the OP I shared the link as to what he said and I left it wide open for people to agree or disagree. Its an opportunity for us all to learn more about Muhammad or not.

The thread has now become about "Do Baha'is proselytize or do they not?" so not about Muhammad anymore.

In regards Proselytizing Baha'is I've said all I want to say. If this is something a number of people feel strongly about they are free to start a thread on it.

Otherwise I'm impressed with the breath and quality of answers that related specifically to Muhammad and I feel like I have learnt a lot. The life of Muhammad is a difficult topic in these days when Islam has often been in the news for all the wrong reasons. Thank you all for participating.

I am all for it "let's totally forget proselytizing and stop proselytizing"

You did create a challenging POST using 6 words only "Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?". Just 3 words stir up a lot.

He taught me to neither give offence nor take offence.
Perfect. Reminds me of Buddha said, staying calm when yelled at by some boys, "If post is delivered at wrong address it goes back to the sender"
Sai Baba said once "I don't want you to defend Me when people belittle Me. I can perfectly take care of Myself, they only harm themselves".
Did Abdu'l-Baha also give an explanation why it is best to do so? Give/take offense is how to handle it. Still we need to stop injustice if we see it?

I am curious why you took the son of Bahaullah as your guru and not Bahaullah. And is Abdu'l-Baha also seen as a Messenger [or maybe personal to you?]. Did He give additional teachings not given before?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I am all for it "let's totally forget proselytizing and stop proselytizing"

You did create a challenging POST using 6 words only "Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?". Just 3 words stir up a lot.

He taught me to neither give offence nor take offence.
Perfect. Reminds me of Buddha said, staying calm when yelled at by some boys, "If post is delivered at wrong address it goes back to the sender"
Sai Baba said once "I don't want you to defend Me when people belittle Me. I can perfectly take care of Myself, they only harm themselves".
Did Abdu'l-Baha also give an explanation why it is best to do so? Give/take offense is how to handle it. Still we need to stop injustice if we see it?

I am curious why you took the son of Bahaullah as your guru and not Bahaullah. And is Abdu'l-Baha also seen as a Messenger [or maybe personal to you?]. Did He give additional teachings not given before?

It is a challenging topic for certain, and I will keep investigating the life of Muhammad for certain.

For me, Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God like Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, and Christ. These Great Beings are on a different realm to ordinary human though I wouldn't expect universal agreement on RF about that.

Baha'u'llah in His Will and Testament indicated that His eldest son Abdu'l-Baha would be His successor and leader of the Baha'i Faith. He also indicated that Abdu'l-Baha was the perfect example of what being a Baha'i meant. As Abdu'l-Baha is in the realm of people like us then I look to him as the one I follow.

There are many stories about Abdu'l-Baha standing up for justice and he did it with love and wisdom.

http://www.bahaistories.com/quotepage.php?Stories/Justice

 

[stvdv]

It is a challenging topic for certain, and I will keep investigating the life of Muhammad for certain.

For me, Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God like Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, and Christ. These Great Beings are on a different realm to ordinary human though I wouldn't expect universal agreement on RF about that.

Baha'u'llah in His Will and Testament indicated that His eldest son Abdu'l-Baha would be His successor and leader of the Baha'i Faith. He also indicated that Abdu'l-Baha was the perfect example of what being a Baha'i meant. As Abdu'l-Baha is in the realm of people like us then I look to him as the one I follow.

There are many stories about Abdu'l-Baha standing up for justice and he did it with love and wisdom.

http://www.bahaistories.com/quotepage.php?Stories/Justice

Thanks for sharing. I agree with these Great Beings living on a different realm to the orginary human. And I am happy we have their inspiring stories

Thanks for the story-link. Very nice layout [makes reading a pleasure] and I read the first story. I like stories with a good lesson in it proven by example of the Guru Himself. That was about 1900, very poor. And sad to read they discriminated Bahai so much. Good to see that the once discriminating slowly have improved a little and Bahai is now worldwide accepted as a religion. I really like Bahaullah's "Bible" so to speak. He was so friendly, compassionate and inspiring.

First story was fantastic. Abdu'l-Baha being regarded as inferior but just by being super-friendly the aggressors became also friendly in return. I see it also, when I am friendly to animals or even humans, they mostly are friendly in return. So my favorite is to be friendly. Good reminder this story.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Where did you ever see me whining? I never whined. I do not care what other people believe.

If you don't care about any messenger alive today, I feel no need to care about the dead ones either. Part of your "proof" that your guy is legit is that he was ignored as a messenger, and yet you have no problems ignoring messengers living today.

What it tells me is that they were highly arrogant and wanted power.

Peter definitely was. Canon and non-canon texts all portray him as a horrible person. However, all of the apostles betrayed him and we know next to nothing about most of them.

That demonstrates that God was not behind them in any way.

Messengers, including yours, died a horrible death. Per your logic, that means God was not behind him in any way.

I mean, I get you want to evangelize, but if you could try thinking about your logic every once in awhile, that'd be great.

God doesn’t need to. God already knows that He exists.

What I mean is, if something is upsetting God, HE should deal with it, not some incompetent human whose mouth opens more than the brain.

But God doesn’t do that. God is just and merciful.

If mercy is extended in an arbitrary and haphazard fashion, which if I recall you don't believe, then God is being arbitrary. What we do or believe is ultimately meaningless if people can get off scot-free at any time. God either wants you to follow the rules and "enjoy" the consequences or He doesn't.

When people say I am proselytizing, that is impugning a motive to me that I do not have.

I see evangelists as people who are trying to sell me a Ferrari when there's not even a Pinto in the lot. I've seen your posts lack logic and understanding. You claim not to be a messenger. Somehow, you still feel the urge to promote something you have no expertise in.

To be honest, I don't really get this impression as much from adrian.

What Baha’u’llah has enjoined Baha’is to do is share and teach the Faith if people show an interest.

And I don't mind that. However, YOU claim that only messengers can truly spread the word and for a thousand years, none of you would qualify, yes?

Why not just stay away from the Baha’is if you do not like them?

I don't have a problem with Bahai's, just people who don't understand what they're saying.

I am just as willing to call out people of my own religion, including God and Jesus. Ignorance should be corrected, even if it's God who is unclear about how things work.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits.

Let's evaluate Jesus' fruits:
1. His own apostles couldn't be bothered to apply his teachings correctly.
2. His hypocrisy knows few bounds. Suffer the little children but dump your family to follow him. People who call others fools will go to hell but he calls people foolish. The rich are evil but he sure doesn't have a problem asking them for room and board. He knows what's in people's hearts but is shocked pagans can have faith.
3. The Roman empire doesn't fall until Christianity is legalized. Sure, it wasn't the only cause, but you'd think God would support a Christian empire.
4. So much harm has been done in his name, from slavery to rape to outright genocide. Hell, my country's doing it NOW.
5. Seriously encourages ignorance. Like THAT helps.
6. Lacks foresight. Should know the world wasn't going to end and instead of a couple of "photo op" type moments where some people get wine and food, he should've made "soup kitchen" like things and help encourage better governmental management.

If we go back to the original OP Abdu'l-Baha taught the Baha'is from the West about who Muhammad really was. In the OP I shared the link as to what he said and I left it wide open for people to agree or disagree. Its an opportunity for us all to learn more about Muhammad or not.

I admire his goals, whether I think he was good at it or not.

 

[Tumah]

Hello, I just happened to read this discussion, so I thought give my thought too.
In my understanding the Bahais are supposed to teach their faith to those who like it, but not with intention of converting them. If someone is not interested, Bahais are not supposed to be pushy. Even if they like to learn about it, The Bahais are not supposed to tell them, now that you learned, become a Bahai.
Or if they do not want to know, Bahais are not to argue, or blame them. They are still friends. So, in some views, this still may be called proselytizing, however with certain boundaries or regulations. So, is there a difference between teaching the faith and proselytizing? I would say, the difference is the intention. If teaching the faith is with the hope of converting, maybe then it is proselytizing. But it is hard to judge the intention, because that is hidden within.

So you're saying you understand that Baha'i go out pioneering and what not - not with intention of making converts to Baha'i, but rather to let people know what you believe, full stop. I mean, in theory you'd have no problem also teaching these people about Buddhism and Paganism while you're at it, because that's also what people believe and after all, you're not teaching them with the hope that they convert to Baha'i. Have I got you right?

 

[danieldemol]

Messengers, including yours, died a horrible death. Per your logic, that means God was not behind him in any way.

Baha’u’llah passed away in His old age, there was nothing particularly horrible about it.

The Bab has the fate of a martyr, this does not mean to us that He was abandoned by God, for according to the Baha’i faith the soul continues on after the passing of the body, so the Martyrdom of the Bab is seen by us as a triumph of the soul over the will of the flesh.

 

[Trailblazer]

No it was not arrogant at all.
Because in the same sentence Sai Baba says "You are God as well; realize this is the goal of life"

This is called Advaita teaching

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. I believe that there is only One God and God is separate from His creation, sanctified from and immeasurably exalted above all His creatures.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sometimes the truth hurts. You can not turn this back to me. You proselytize. I just confirm this. Don't proselytize if you don't like it [friendly advice]

Your truth is not my truth. You cannot confirm what you do not know.

I do not proselytize because I am not trying to convince or convert anyone to my religion.

You have no right to speak for me. This is not friendly advice. It is overstepping your bounds and it is disrespectful.

And I agree, Adrian is very "cool" about it, he admits that it happens. To recognize is the first step to stop it.

I do not have to recognize what I am not doing. You should recognize what you are doing, speaking for me as if you could ever know what is in my mind and heart, and what my intentions are. Only God knows that. You are not God so you do not know what my intentions are.

 

[Trailblazer]

If I am wrong, I definitely correct my mistake. But here I am like 100% sure I am right.

Admittedly, I should not have said "It is more special than older beliefs because it is the message for this age in history." I should have said: "I believe it is special because it is the message for this age in history."

We all make mistakes. The important thing is that we can recognize them and admit to them, and apologize if necessary.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I admire his goals, whether I think he was good at it or not.

Abdu'l-Baha was a powerful advocate for reconciliation and unity between peoples of all faiths and worldviews.

Although he spent much of His life as a pisoner and exile along with his father Baha'u'llah, he always remained positive and focused considering the good of humanity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/`Abdu'l-Bahá

Interesting he was awarded a knighthood by the British government in recognition of his efforts to save many people from starvation as a consequence of the blockade of palestine during WWI.

http://bahaiteachings.org/saved-from-starvation-the-master-feeds-the-masses

Abdu'l-Baha's passing was mourned by thousands of all different faiths:

The next morning, Tuesday November 29th, the funeral took place; a funeral the like of which Haifa, nay Palestine itself, had surely never seen; so deep was the feeling that brought so many thousands of mourners together, representative of so many religions, races and tongues.

The High Commissioner of Palestine, Sir Herbert Samuel, the Governor of Jerusalem, the Governor of Phoenicia, the Chief Officials of the Government, the Consuls of the various countries, resident in Haifa, the heads of the various religious communities, the notables of Palestine, Jews, Christians, Moslems, Druses, Egyptians, Greeks, Turks, Kurds, and a host of his American, European and native friends, men, women and children, both of high and low degree, all, about ten thousand in number, mourning the loss of their Beloved One.

https://bahai-library.com/shoghieffendi_blomfield_passing_abdulbaha

So how good was Abdu'l-Baha at promoting a better understanding of Muhammad and of all faiths? I'd say outstanding.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, is there a difference between teaching the faith and proselytizing? I would say, the difference is the intention. If teaching the faith is with the hope of converting, maybe then it is proselytizing. But it is hard to judge the intention, because that is hidden within.

I would say it is impossible to judge the intention of anyone else, unless you are God.

We know our intentions better than anyone else but only God knows them fully:

“Consider, moreover, how frequently doth man become forgetful of his own self, whilst God remaineth, through His all-encompassing knowledge, aware of His creature, and continueth to shed upon him the manifest radiance of His glory. It is evident, therefore, that, in such circumstances, He is closer to him than his own self. He will, indeed, so remain for ever, for, whereas the one true God knoweth all things, perceiveth all things, and comprehendeth all things, mortal man is prone to err, and is ignorant of the mysteries that lie enfolded within him….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 186

 

[Trailblazer]

If you don't care about any messenger alive today, I feel no need to care about the dead ones either. Part of your "proof" that your guy is legit is that he was ignored as a messenger, and yet you have no problems ignoring messengers living today.

You do not have to care about anyone you do not want to care about.

I do not believe there are any Messengers of God alive today. Baha’u’llah wrote that there could be no more Prophets ere the expiration of 1000 years (2852 AD).

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p. 346

Peter definitely was. Canon and non-canon texts all portray him as a horrible person. However, all of the apostles betrayed him and we know next to nothing about most of them.

I know next to nothing about any of them. Christianity was never my religion.

Messengers, including yours, died a horrible death. Per your logic, that means God was not behind him in any way.

Some like Jesus and the Bab died a horrible death because they chose to be martyrs for their Cause, but Baha’u’llah died of old age. What I was referring to is what happened to these men that was not their choice. That indicates God had something to do with it.

I mean, I get you want to evangelize, but if you could try thinking about your logic every once in awhile, that'd be great.

No, I do not evangelize. I just share what I believe and respond to posts. I rarely respond to posts that are not addressed to be. Don’t talk to me and you usually won’t hear from me.

Evangelizing means to try to convert. I have no interest in converting anyone.

What I mean is, if something is upsetting God, HE should deal with it, not some incompetent human whose mouth opens more than the brain.

God does not deal with anything on earth because God does not come to earth

If mercy is extended in an arbitrary and haphazard fashion, which if I recall you don't believe, then God is being arbitrary. What we do or believe is ultimately meaningless if people can get off scot-free at any time. God either wants you to follow the rules and "enjoy" the consequences or He doesn't.

God does want you to follow the rules even if you do not enjoy the consequences. Nobody gets off scot-free.

“The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 219

I see evangelists as people who are trying to sell me a Ferrari when there's not even a Pinto in the lot. I've seen your posts lack logic and understanding. You claim not to be a messenger. Somehow, you still feel the urge to promote something you have no expertise in.

Talking about something is not promoting it. It is talking about it. To say someone is promoting something you would need to know their personal motives. You cannot know those unless that person tells you what they are.

To be honest, I don't really get this impression as much from adrian.

We are all different in how we talk and how much so impressions will vary. That has nothing to do with motives.

Let me explain something. If my boss at work gives me a job to do I do not ask him why I should do it, I just do it. It is the same with Baha’u’llah. He gave me a job to do and I do not question it, I just do it. That job is to tell people about Baha’u’llah and answer questions if people ask. It is as simple as that. Conversion does not enter into the equation.

A nd I don't mind that. However, YOU claim that only messengers can truly spread the word and for a thousand years, none of you would qualify, yes?

Never did I say that. It was not Baha’u’llah’s job to spread the word. That is the job that He gave to the Baha’is. But spreading the word is not proselytizing. It is spreading. If nobody tells people about Baha’u’llah then they won’t know. How do you think Christianity spread?

Let's evaluate Jesus' fruits:
1. His own apostles couldn't be bothered to apply his teachings correctly.
2. His hypocrisy knows few bounds. Suffer the little children but dump your family to follow him. People who call others fools will go to hell but he calls people foolish. The rich are evil but he sure doesn't have a problem asking them for room and board. He knows what's in people's hearts but is shocked pagans can have faith.
3. The Roman empire doesn't fall until Christianity is legalized. Sure, it wasn't the only cause, but you'd think God would support a Christian empire.
4. So much harm has been done in his name, from slavery to rape to outright genocide. Hell, my country's doing it NOW.
5. Seriously encourages ignorance. Like THAT helps.
6. Lacks foresight. Should know the world wasn't going to end and instead of a couple of "photo op" type moments where some people get wine and food, he should've made "soup kitchen" like things and help encourage better governmental management.

Those are not the fruits of Jesus. Those are the fruits of Christianity.

 

[stvdv]

You accused me I was wrong saying "you are proselytizing". The spoiler has the quotes to backup what I said.

Definition of proselytize: advocate or promote (a belief or course of action).

You use "Ad Hominem Attack", by belittling the religion of others. That is wrong. You can disapprove of acts done in name of religion but that's it. Do not belittle the feelings of others

How to advocate or promote your religion:
a)Belittle others' religion
b)Magnify your religion
c)Share about your religion
d)Not share about other religions

Spoiler

Sometimes the truth hurts. You can not turn this back to me. You proselytize. I just confirm this. Don't proselytize if you don't like it [friendly advice]

Your truth is not my truth. You cannot confirm what you do not know.
I do not proselytize because I am not trying to convince or convert anyone to my religion.
You have no right to speak for me. This is not friendly advice. It is overstepping your bounds and it is disrespectful.
I do not have to recognize what I am not doing.
You should recognize what you are doing, speaking for me as if you could ever know what is in my mind and heart, and what my intentions are.
Only God knows that. You are not God so you do not know what my intentions are.

a):

It is more special than older beliefs because it is the message for this age in history.
The Revelation of Baha'u'llah abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations of past religions. The older religions are no longer what God wants us to follow.

"It" is Bahai. Obvious you belittle other Religions big time
Reminds me of "Animal Farm (Orwell)". Animals took over; humans were arrogant. Pigs ruled and claimed "All animals are equal, but pigs are more equal".
[You already agreed that this was wrong. But at the same time you still wrote the reply accusing me of wrongly telling that you proselytize. So I use this proof to proof you proselytize.]

That is why people should stop clinging to the Bible and look at the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

This I call demeaning and belittling.
b):

It is more special than older beliefs because it is the message for this age in history.
What we want has nothing to do with what God wants for us.
The Revelation of Baha'u'llah abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations of past religions. The older religions are no longer what God wants us to follow.

Obviously you magnify your own religion at the cost of others

No, if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be it is not just a belief, it is a reality. Never forget that because it has certain implications for everyone.

You just tell it is for "everyone". Would be correct to start the sentence with "In my humble opinion". That is all I am saying. Just humility knowing it is just your belief

His Revelation is what humanity needs for at least the next 1000 years, until God sends another Messenger.

Obviously you make Bahai very big here. For 1000 years ONLY your messenger is real. Others are dismissed.
c):
This of course we know you do.
d):

It is a lot new than the Bible or even the Qur’an. God is not coming any more often than that, sorry. I could care less about a live Messenger. I have what He wrote.

I know next to nothing about any of them. Christianity was never my religion.

So obviously you do not "share info on other religions". That is okay, but then easily proselytizing sneaks in.
As a comparison: I stimulate others to stick to their own religion. Do NOT convert to mine, there is no need for that at all.
You can claim "I do not promote"

Talking about something is not promoting it. It is talking about it

To say someone is promoting something you would need to know their personal motives. You cannot know those unless that person tells you what they are.

But it is also good to know the definition as used by the majority. It seems you use your own definition, to be able to proselytize without being told so.
The quotes of you below show proselytizing as per normal definition IMO [I would be surprised if I am the only one using this definition]:

It is more special than older beliefs because it is the message for this age in history.
The Revelation of Baha'u'llah abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations of past religions. The older religions are no longer what God wants us to follow.

That is why people should stop clinging to the Bible and look at the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

His Revelation is what humanity needs for at least the next 1000 years, until God sends another Messenger.

And here you describe and quote to a tee "evangelizing as done by Christians" [what I would call promoting and proselytizing]

Let me explain something. If my boss at work gives me a job to do I do not ask him why I should do it, I just do it. It is the same with Baha’u’llah. He gave me a job to do and I do not question it, I just do it. That job is to tell people about Baha’u’llah and answer questions if people ask. It is as simple as that. Conversion does not enter into the equation.

Never did I say that. It was not Baha’u’llah’s job to spread the word. That is the job that He gave to the Baha’is. But spreading the word is not proselytizing. It is spreading. If nobody tells people about Baha’u’llah then they won’t know. How do you think Christianity spread?

 

[Trailblazer]

You accused me I was wrong saying "you are proselytizing". The spoiler has the quotes to backup what I said.
Definition of proselytize: advocate or promote (a belief or course of action).
You use "Ad Hominem Attack", by belittling the religion of others. That is wrong. You can disapprove of acts done in name of religion but that's it. Do not belittle the feelings of others

How to advocate or promote your religion:
a)Belittle others' religion
b)Magnify your religion
c)Share about your religion
d)Not share about other religions

Spoiler: For Trailblazer

a):

"It" is Bahai. Obvious you belittle other Religions big time
Reminds me of "Animal Farm (Orwell)". Animals took over; humans were arrogant. Pigs ruled and claimed "All animals are equal, but pigs are more equal".
[You already agreed that this was wrong. But kept accusing me. So I use this proof to proof you proselytize.]

This I call demeaning and belittling.

b):

Obviously you magnify your own religion at the cost of others

You impose it on "everyone". Would be correct to start the sentence with "In my humble opinion"

Obviously you make Bahai very big here. For 1000 years ONLY your messenger is real. Others are dismissed.

c):
This of course we know you do.

d):






You can claim "I do not promote"


But it is also good to know the definition as used by the majority. It seems you use your own definition, to be able to proselytize without being told so.
The quotes of you below show proselytizing as per normal definition IMO [I would be surprised if I am the only one using this definition]:




And here you describe and quote to a tee "evangelizing as done by Christians" [what I would call promoting and proselytizing]

Show me one place where I demeaned or belittled anyone else’s religion. You accuse me of things but you have no evidence to support your accusations.

Explaining what my religion teaches regarding being the “current religion” that God wants us to follow does not equate to demeaning or belittling anyone else’s religion. That is simply explaining what Baha’u’llah wrote. I am sorry you do not like it but this is a religious forum so I can share what I believe.

Christians speak about their religion and what it teaches all the time. They believe that their religion is the only religion that is true, but I do not see you getting after them for proselytizing. Talking about one’s religion and what it teaches does not equate to proselytizing:

proselytize: convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.
https://www.google.com

No matter what I say about the Baha’i Faith, I am not proselytizing because I am not trying to convince or convert anyone to my religion. It is as simple as that. You cannot EVER know my intentions. Only I know my intentions and God knows my intentions.

The question you might ask yourself is why you cannot let this go. I am not talking about Baha’i unless it is related to a post I am answering or unless someone asks me about it. Why can’t you just leave me alone?

 

[CG Didymus]

No, I am not playing a numbers game... It is not only that so many people believe that Muhammad is a Messenger of God, it is what they do with that belief, how they worship. It makes no sense that so many people would believe in and worship a mere man, including following His teachings and Laws. Do you know any mere men that 22% of the world population believe in and are willing to follow and sacrifice their personal desires for?

Of course, they could all be deluded, and were it not for the other Messengers of God like Moses and Jesus I might be more inclined to think that is possible. However, it is the preponderance of evidence that matters... There are simply too many Messengers and religions to say that all their followers throughout all of history are deluded. So what makes most logical sense is that there were a lot of Messengers of God who were sent by God throughout the ages and all of them brought different messages from God that were pertinent to the times in which they appeared.

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Are Christians that believe that Jesus is God deluded? I would imagine Baha'is would have to say "yes". How many Christians believe that? So a large religious group can be wrong. So how about Muslims? Are all their beliefs correct, or are some of them wrong?

 

[Trailblazer]

Are Christians that believe that Jesus is God deluded? I would imagine Baha'is would have to say "yes". How many Christians believe that? So a large religious group can be wrong. So how about Muslims? Are all their beliefs correct, or are some of them wrong?

According to my beliefs Christians that believe that Jesus is God are incorrect, but they just believe what they were taught by the Church.
I do not know what all Muslims believe, but from what I know most Muslims adhere to the Qur'an and in so doing their beliefs are correct. The only belief I would say that they are wrong about is that Muhammad is the last and final Messenger of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

What are you trying to say? City states with far more far-reaching influence developed well before Judaism - and completely independently. The very notion of democracy we learned from the Greeks - and that was anathema to theocratic Judaism and Islam - still is to very large degree in the latter case.

One step forward...but you seem to be suggesting that this was a bad thing and that theocratic dictatorship is a preferable form of government - which style would you prefer Mosaic or Sharia?

So are we still talking about city states here - is the Vatican the model you are advocating???

No it wasn't, the mythological characters and narratives about Moses and David were developed around the same time - probably neither of them really existed - at least not as the legendary characters that are described in the OT. In any case, even the most generous traditional interpretations put only about 400 years between them.

What rather extended pinnacle? A couple of hundred of years between the end of the Abbassid Revolution (a couple of centuries after Muhammad) and the beginning of the crusades?

There isn't really much to choose between Moses and Muhammad if you look at the reality - an extended military campaign of expansionism, military conquest and genocide followed by a short period of apparent peace and prosperity and then a long, slow and painful slide into terminal decline. That is the pattern of theocratic governments throughout history as far as I can tell.

Golden Age? In another thread Baha'is were talking about the Ummayads and the Abassids being the evil beasts in Revelation?