Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks for sharing.

It’s not just you. I’ve noticed a long-running trend of Baha’is who join here and spend most of all of their time promoting their religion. When I ask them why they’re doing this for a “non-proselytizing” religion, they get evasive.

It’s almost at the point that I’m inclined to say that this is a standard Baha'i approach, but I have to remind myself that I’m falling into the Toupee Fallacy and I have no idea how many adherents of the religion are just quietly going about their lives not calling attention to their religion.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Toupee_fallacy

That shows good insight and capacity for self reflection IMHO. It is not good to stereotype any group.

No, actually.

I originally joined to see if I could find ways to overcome my objections to theism in general and Catholicism in particular, with the aim of trying to find a way to make my Catholic (now ex-) wife happy by converting.

I think that's a really difficult position if you have a spouse who really wants you to become something you feel uncomfortable with. In life we all need to be able to reach key decisions in our life without undue influence from those closest to us. When it comes to decisions about faith or no faith, best we base that decision on what we really believe. I think some people are never reach that stage of maturity where they can make such a decision independently.

These days, I’m mainly here for two reasons:

- to throw my beliefs and arguments out for criticism so that I can better find their weak points and hopefully get rid of the stuff that isn’t justified, and.

- to try to find a way to avoid just falling into contempt for religion and theism, since a decade of examining these things in depth has put me on that path. I recognize that this might be a futile and irrational goal.

I can relate to wanting to test your ideas out. That's part of the deal for me too.

I would hope you can find some moderate theists to talk to. Being anti-theistic seems really unhealthy to me. You then have a rather large chunk of humanity you either feel some aversion towards or can not really understand. For me being able to relate to people from diverse backgrounds (atheists included) is hugely important.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm pretty sure this is a thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneering_(Bahá'í)

Being on RF isn't or shouldn't be like pioneering though. That being said there is a strong emphasis in our faith at this early stage in its development to teach the faith to others. Whether Baha'is approach that with wisdom or unparalleled stupidity is another story.

 

[Tumah]

Being on RF isn't or shouldn't be like pioneering though. That being said there is a strong emphasis in our faith at this early stage in its development to teach the faith to others. Whether Baha'is approach that with wisdom or unparalleled stupidity is another story.

What I meant to say was using what Baha'i perceive as a more palatable word for what is essentially proselytizing in order to (what appears to be to) encourage people to be more receptive of their message, is a thing.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Welcome to RF

The only similarities of the that the two both believed in the Torah and they both claim to be the Messiah.
The major difference is that Christ taught peace and loving everyone while Muhammad taught war and domination of primarily Christians and secondary all other non-believers.
Others identified Christ as the Messiah way before he ever admitted it. Muhammad came from the caves with a Koran and declared himself Messiah.
Do you want to discuss these?

This thread is an opportunity to reflect on the Life and Teachings of Muhammad. If you wish to do that by comparing Him to Christ that's reasonable IMHO.

The Islamic Golden age is what through Christianity into the Spanish Inquisition and Religion and Government domination. It was not a good time for either faiths.

Spain was part of various Islamic empires before they were finally driven out by the Catholics. The point in regards to the Islamic golden age is that Spain was an important part of Europe through which the knowledge of the Muslims were transmitted to Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Spain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe

Eventually the Moors were driven out.

 

[Dawnofhope]

What I meant to say was using what Baha'i perceive as a more palatable word for what is essentially proselytizing in order to (what appears to be to) encourage people to be more receptive of their message, is a thing.

What Baha'is call 'Teaching' others would be perceived as 'proselytizing' by many though we don't consider ourselves as a proselytizing religion. However if we checked out what the word proselytize actually means, the Baha'i approach would certainly fit the definition albeit at the milder end of the spectrum. We don't coerce people to become converts. We do provide proofs and arguments for those who are interested.

proselytize
convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

1. "the programme did have a tremendous evangelical effect, proselytizing many"
   synonyms: evangelize, convert, seek/make converts, bring to God/Christ, bring into the fold, spread the gospel/word (to), propagandize, preach (to), win over, recruit;
   brainwash
   

 

[Tumah]

What Baha'is call 'Teaching' others would be perceived as 'proselytizing' by many though we don't consider ourselves as a proselytizing religion. However if we checked out what the word proselytize actually means, the Baha'i approach would certainly fit the definition albeit at the milder end of the spectrum. We don't coerce people to become converts. We do provide proofs and arguments for those who are interested.

proselytize
convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

1. "the programme did have a tremendous evangelical effect, proselytizing many"
   synonyms: evangelize, convert, seek/make converts, bring to God/Christ, bring into the fold, spread the gospel/word (to), propagandize, preach (to), win over, recruit;
   brainwash

Right, but I'm saying, nobody said the word coerce and I don't think anyone equates proselytizing with coercion, which I would naturally called "forced conversion" and I don't think I'm alone in that. The feeling I have gotten from many Baha'i posters here, is that Baha'i are trying to differentiate between themselves in people's minds from what they believe people dislike about Christianity, while still basically doing that same thing only more subtly. Calling it "teaching" or "pioneering" when essentially you're meaning is "proselytizing" all the while you assert that you're not a proselytizing religion just seems kind of dishonest. As you noted and expressed in your quoted definition, you fit the definition of a proselytizing religion. So what honest reason is there not to consider yourselves as such?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Right, but I'm saying, nobody said the word coerce and I don't think anyone equates proselytizing with coercion, which I would naturally called "forced conversion" and I don't think I'm alone in that. The feeling I have gotten from many Baha'i posters here, is that Baha'i are trying to differentiate between themselves in people's minds from what they believe people dislike about Christianity, while still basically doing that same thing only more subtly. Calling it "teaching" or "pioneering" when essentially you're meaning is "proselytizing" all the while you assert that you're not a proselytizing religion just seems kind of dishonest. As you noted and expressed in your quoted definition, you fit the definition of a proselytizing religion. So what honest reason is there not to consider yourselves as such?

Because the definition is too broad for it to be meaningful. It just becomes one more word that one religious adherent likes to self-righteously label another with.

Do the Baha'is proselytize? According to the definition provided we do. I admit that. There are a few other religions around that pride themselves on not proselytizing who would met that definition too. I've no inclination to have a crack at them.

Are the Baha'is any better or any worse than other Faith adherents such as the Christians? All of the main faiths that I've had dealings with have followers who are good examples of the highest principles of their faith. The Baha'is are no better than anyone else.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is NOT a smart thing to say. Why? Because your Messenger once was alive too. Plus you go against Bahaullah's teaching [this one is too obvious to explain]

What I meant is that I do not need a Messenger who is physically alive because I have what He wrote and I have what His appointed interpreters wrote. I have their Writings and I also have the UHJ (Universal House of Justice) to turn to for continued guidance into the future. I do not have to have someone I can actually see and talk to.
How does that go against Baha'u'llah's teachings?

 

[Tumah]

Because the definition is too broad for it to be meaningful. It just becomes one more word that one religious adherent likes to self-righteously label another with.

Do the Baha'is proselytize? According to the definition provided we do. I admit that. There are a few other religions around that pride themselves on not proselytizing who would met that definition too. I've no inclination to have a crack at them.

Are the Baha'is any better or any worse than other Faith adherents such as the Christians? All of the main faiths that I've had dealings with have followers who are good examples of the highest principles of their faith. The Baha'is are no better than anyone else.

I'm not really sure what you mean when you say that it's too broad for it to be meaningful. It seems like a pretty clear, unambiguous word and I fail to see any reason not self-label yourselves that way except for the duplicitous reason I mentioned above. I'm not trying to knock you down a peg or claim that you are any worse or better for proselytizing than Christianity or Islam who proselytize or Buddhism and Hinduism who don't. Baha'i typically speak about how the word implies coercion, but as you've demonstrated above with your dictionary definition, that doesn't seem to be true and I've not heard that from anyone but other Baha'i. "Religious coercion" or "forced conversion" definitely has that meaning and I don't think anyone has thought Baha'i do that. On the other hand, Christians (at least in the West) don't do that anymore either and no one has any qualms about calling what they do proselytizing, including Christians themselves. All I'm saying is that as an outsider, it looks like you're trying to re-brand and while that's an effective measure for advertising, it also seems dishonest. I would not normally bring this us, but another poster brought it up, so I thought I'd add my own feelings on the subject.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know "siti" from reading only, sounds nice. I take persons serious "I am prepared" means "He is prepared" .. including soul.

I was not implying that siti was not prepared. I was just saying we all need more than a burial plot to be prepared because he said he did not need any preparation other than a burial plot. I am sure his soul is just fine. He is a sincere person with a good heart.

Never forget that. "it is just a belief". So Bahai is just a belief. Not more special than other beliefs. And Bahaullah also not more special than others.

No, if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be it is not just a belief, it is a reality. Never forget that because it has certain implications for everyone. God does not just send a new Messenger because He got bored one day. It is a serious matter when God sends a new Messenger, whether people believe in Him or not. We are talking about the Almighty God here.

It is more special than older beliefs because it is the message for this age in history. That is what people apparently do not understand or care about. But that does not negate its importance.

What we want has nothing to do with what God wants for us. The Revelation of Baha'u'llah abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations of past religions. The older religions are no longer what God wants us to follow.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

 

[stvdv]

I believe the very first test to determine whether a man is a true prophet or not is if he teaches the divinity of Christ and Mankind's reliance upon Him for salvation

Disagreed. This I call proselytizing "Jesus is the only way". Implicit belittling all other religions with their prophets, saints, avatars.

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.co...alled-muhammad-up-to-732-a-d-was-he-a-caliph/

Thanks. Interesting things he said. I am glad the truth about Islam gets out now, finally. They can't hide behind "Quran is perfecct word of God"

 

[stvdv]

I came to RF, because I was curious if Bahai Universal was as proselytizing as Bahai Holland.
So I just collect random a view replies only in this POST. Gives me a good impression of Bahai.

I have read the Book of Bahaullah myself and was happy. I am really proselytizing trigger sensitive and not once His Book triggered me. Which is very amazing. How come I got triggered like 50 times in 1 POST. Obviously, Bahaullah is different from Bahai. But no surprise to me, Jesus is different from Christianity/Church.

Books are written by humans. They are imperfect. So scriptures are imperfect as are translations? Proven by Catholic Priests and Muslim Imaams last few years getting front page News. Not because they were perfect in scripture but they were lacking self control and decency.

When I was a child we did this game. Tell neighbor small line. After 10 persons the story changed dramatically. Only when you record it on DVD and don't photoshop/edit etc. it will stay trustworthy.

The conclusion is really very simple:
"To proselytize or NOT?"
Bible teaches us "Do not do to others what you do not want others to do unto you"
100% sure, in my personal experience "Christians do not want me to talk about Sai Baba, Buddha, Atheism, Hinduism"
Conclusion: If they follow the Bible they should grant us the same courtesy as they expect from us.

But if God created all, He also implemented proselytizing.
My Guru was always into "love my uncertainty":
Tells 1st woman in interview1 "I want you to only let the white people enter through the gate"
Tells 2nd woman in interview2 "I want you to only let the black people enter through the gate" [black = non white]
These 2 women meet at the gate and started shouting and arguing who to let in. Finally my Guru calls them in and asks "how did it go? Did all get in?". Then they started shouting again. Wait said my Guru, what is the problem? I told one to let in the white, and the other the black. You should have just done that, and then there would have not been a problem.

As regards to evangelize my Guru said: Avoid people who evangelize.

I realize now how simple it is. No need to discuss. No need to even talk, because evangelists have only 1 goal "to evangelize". I Don't have illusions about that. God/Bible/Priest/MonkeyMind told them to do so. I just have to follow my Guru "Avoid them". If all avoid the Christians, then the proselytizing is finished in 1 second. So that is what I am going to do from now on. Chapter closed. Solved.


= = = Below is just proof that quite a few people are not so happy with others proselytizing "Do not do unto others....." = = =

 

[stvdv]

List of quotes: How people feel about proselytizing [found them in this post]
More as a reminder for myself. Bahai fits into Abrahamic group proselytizing.

Spoiler: Some quotes on proselytizing of members from this post

The proof lies within the Holy Books of each Faith whether it be the Tanakh, NT, Quran, or Gita.

Christ and Muhammad are proofs of God's existence through the power and influence of Their Teachings to transform positively the lives of so many throughout history

Disagreed. Mafia in Italy. Power and influence is even felt in USA. Scaring little kids into Hell is not positive. Belittling while proselytizing is bad also.

That is very clear. If people are not open to find "common ground" then case closed. For me no need to talk about God then. Kind of non-sense.

Maybe tell that to those religions that proselytise

Perfect answer.

I think the west and particularly Europe has pretty much had enough of religion and especially the abrahmics

I have for sure more than enough of proselytizing. That is so sick [here I don't write IMHO]

I would avoid the use of the word proselytize as it is usually used pejoratively and can have a wide range of meanings.

Disagreed. The word proselytize is perfect in this context. It's meaning is ugly because the habit is ugly. Don't do it if you don't want to be associated with it.

Proselytizing just means “to convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion to another.” There’s nothing inherently pejorative about it.

Agreed. It's just a sick habit. Why? Because converting implies telling the other "Your religion is inferior, I know best" = Arrogance, blasphemy.

So there are many practices that come under proselytism that would be abhorent to Baha'is.

Glad to hear. One abhorent thing "People having the audacity to think/tell `My religion is better, I know best and can tell yours is inferior`" = spiritual ego/arrogance

Proselytizing doesn’t have to involve threats or coercion; it can also just involve trying to convince others to freely change their mind through reasoned arguments.

You are too nice IMO. The underlying sick red line is "I know best which religion is best for you = belittling the other = crippling self confidence"

Even though I’ve heard Baha’is say that proselytizing is forbidden in their religion, I can’t count how many times I’ve seen Baha’is try to convince others that their religion is based in truth. I consider this proselytizing; don’t you?

Agreed. I am hyper sensitive to proselytizing. I read the book of Bahaullah. Not once did I get this creepy feeling I get 50 times in this post.

I agree that it can meet the definition of proselytizing.
Do you feel I'm trying to convince you to become a Baha'i?

That is not even the point. No one has the right to belittle the faith/feeling/soul of the other with "my religion trumps yours". You see Trump is the problem.

I doubt you think you’ll be successful with me personally, but I do think you’re trying to overcome objections that people might have to becoming Baha’i, yes.

Do not doubt even. You are perfect being atheist. At least you don't proselytize and you have respect "not thinking my religion is best".
I rather have Atheism/Humanism take over Christianity/Islam then the other way around.

Fair enough. I can see that. One objection to the Baha'i Faith could be Baha'is believe that Muhammad is a Messenger of God. Convince people that Muhammad was a Messenger of God and they are more likely to become a Baha'i. That's not where I'm coming from, but I can see how you would have the impression.

I love that you are honest. This was exactly what was in my mind. I even wrote it but then deleted it and prayed to God that you would say it yourself. I really did. So you are a Messenger of God. But don't get carried away.

I grew up Christian, became a Baha'i nearly 30 years ago, and now I'm wanting to learn more about Islam. I doubt if I'll convince anyone here to become a Baha'i. I suppose my presence here on RF hasn't gone entirely unnoticed lol.

This one I also wrote. You didn't loose the Christian proselytizing mindset. Is a tough cookie to let go. I was lucky with Sai Baba. He is very specific in this "I do not want you to evangelize. Evangelize is the cause that people convert from religion to atheism. But atheism can also lead to the goal of life. Because every religion leads to God as well as Atheism/Humanism or people who are respectful and loving towards each other and nature."

I read a big part of the main book of Bahaullah and found not 1 verse to proselytize. The opposite even "Unity in Diversity" was what I read.
I am disappointed about the proselytizing I see from the Bahai's. In Holland they do it also very much. They say we should not, still they do. The cause is "they believe Bahaullah is the final Messenger for the next 1000 years and all finally have to go through Bahaullah".

It’s not just you. I’ve noticed a long-running trend of Baha’is who join here and spend most of all of their time promoting their religion. When I ask them why they’re doing this for a “non-proselytizing” religion, they get evasive.

Thanks, the little illusion I had is poof gone now also.

I'm pretty sure this is a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneering_(Bahá'í)

Thanks. I must say the Bahai's are smart in `hiding their real face`, but you are smart in `revealing hidden faces`

Being on RF isn't or shouldn't be like pioneering though. That being said there is a strong emphasis in our faith at this early stage in its development to teach the faith to others. Whether Baha'is approach that with wisdom or unparalleled stupidity is another story.

What I meant to say was using what Baha'i perceive as a more palatable word for what is essentially proselytizing in order to (what appears to be to) encourage people to be more receptive of their message, is a thing.

Agreed. I could not have said it any better.

What Baha'is call 'Teaching' others would be perceived as 'proselytizing' by many though we don't consider ourselves as a proselytizing religion. However if we checked out what the word proselytize actually means, the Baha'i approach would certainly fit the definition albeit at the milder end of the spectrum. We don't coerce people to become converts. We do provide proofs and arguments for those who are interested.

Still you belittle the faith of the other. So you undermine his confidence in his own conscience, and that is very bad, indeed.
You still try to dodge the bullet. We don't talk coerce people. What you call proof, I call believe. And I can easily prove that your proof is not proof. I will do this later if you like. But in your heart you know. You are a Messenger of God after all. Let just go of all concept. Only listen to your heart, not your mind, not all the voices in your head, but the voice in your heart. The first and second Commandments give clear answer to this.

Right, but I'm saying, nobody said the word coerce and I don't think anyone equates proselytizing with coercion, which I would naturally called "forced conversion" and I don't think I'm alone in that. The feeling I have gotten from many Baha'i posters here, is that Baha'i are trying to differentiate between themselves in people's minds from what they believe people dislike about Christianity, while still basically doing that same thing only more subtly. Calling it "teaching" or "pioneering" when essentially you're meaning is "proselytizing" all the while you assert that you're not a proselytizing religion just seems kind of dishonest. As you noted and expressed in your quoted definition, you fit the definition of a proselytizing religion. So what honest reason is there not to consider yourselves as such?

Agreed. As I said above, you are not alone at all.

Do the Baha'is proselytize? According to the definition provided we do. I admit that

Agreed. Again I appreciate your honesty. I would even more appreciate if you now start proselytizing to all the Bahai's to stop proselytizing.

Are the Baha'is any better or any worse than other Faith adherents such as the Christians? All of the main faiths that I've had dealings with have followers who are good examples of the highest principles of their faith. The Baha'is are no better than anyone else.

Thanks again for being truthful.

No, if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be it is not just a belief, it is a reality. Never forget that because it has certain implications for everyone. God does not just send a new Messenger because He got bored one day. It is a serious matter when God sends a new Messenger, whether people believe in Him or not. We are talking about the Almighty God here.

Another strange proof.

It is more special than older beliefs because it is the message for this age in history. That is what people apparently do not understand or care about. But that does not negate its importance.

Okay here we have the topper. Reminds me of Animal Farm "All animals are equal, but pigs are more equal"

What we want has nothing to do with what God wants for us. The Revelation of Baha'u'llah abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations of past religions. The older religions are no longer what God wants us to follow

Exactly true "What we want has nothing to do with what God wants for us"
"WE" = Bahai's, and "US" = All humans[/QUOTE]

 

[stvdv]

Interesting reply here:
A):

No, if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be it is not just a belief, it is a reality. Never forget that because it has certain implications for everyone. God does not just send a new Messenger because He got bored one day. It is a serious matter when God sends a new Messenger, whether people believe in Him or not. We are talking about the Almighty God here.

It is more special than older beliefs because it is the message for this age in history. That is what people apparently do not understand or care about. But that does not negate its importance.

What we want has nothing to do with what God wants for us. The Revelation of Baha'u'llah abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations of past religions. The older religions are no longer what God wants us to follow.

= = =

My Guru, Sai Baba, claimed he is a Poorna Avatar. I don't know exactly what it means. But definitely it means that if He thinks "I wished all man to become pinguins, we would be pinguins". No doubt in my mind about that. Once the tax collector came (smelling big money). First question "what is your name". SB "God". Second question "What do you own". SB "The whole world is mine". I forgot the other questions. Tax collector left. Came back the day Sai Baba died. Tax collectors are not know to give up that easy.

Sai Baba claimed "I am God". So using your reasoning
B):
"if Sai Baba was who He claimed to be it is not just a belief, it is a reality". Never forget that because it has certain implications for everyone. God does not come down Himself because He got bored one day. It is a serious matter when God sends HimSelf, whether people believe in Him or not. We are talking about the Almighty God here [now for real if it's true what He stated]

It is more special than older beliefs because it is the message for this age in history. That is what people apparently do not understand or care about. But that does not negate its importance.

What humans want has nothing to do with what God wants for us. The Revelation of Sai Baba abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations of past religions. The older religions are no longer what God wants us to follow

= = =

Curious which option you choose. Your option is over 100 years old. My option is very recent. So following your logic, I guess you go to follow Sai Baba?

NOTE: I do not proselytize in anyway. Sai Baba says "stick to your own religion, I do not need followers nor want you to proselytize"

 

[stvdv]

Reminds me of when I was doing badly in psychology statistics class and I dreamed an angel tutored me and I started getting A's.

Thank you for sharing. These real experiences are wonderful to read. Then we know magic is all around. We just need to open up for it to experience it

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I'm not really sure what you mean when you say that it's too broad for it to be meaningful. It seems like a pretty clear, unambiguous word and I fail to see any reason not self-label yourselves that way except for the duplicitous reason I mentioned above. I'm not trying to knock you down a peg or claim that you are any worse or better for proselytizing than Christianity or Islam who proselytize or Buddhism and Hinduism who don't. Baha'i typically speak about how the word implies coercion, but as you've demonstrated above with your dictionary definition, that doesn't seem to be true and I've not heard that from anyone but other Baha'i. "Religious coercion" or "forced conversion" definitely has that meaning and I don't think anyone has thought Baha'i do that. On the other hand, Christians (at least in the West) don't do that anymore either and no one has any qualms about calling what they do proselytizing, including Christians themselves. All I'm saying is that as an outsider, it looks like you're trying to re-brand and while that's an effective measure for advertising, it also seems dishonest. I would not normally bring this us, but another poster brought it up, so I thought I'd add my own feelings on the subject.

Hello, I just happened to read this discussion, so I thought give my thought too.
In my understanding the Bahais are supposed to teach their faith to those who like it, but not with intention of converting them. If someone is not interested, Bahais are not supposed to be pushy. Even if they like to learn about it, The Bahais are not supposed to tell them, now that you learned, become a Bahai.
Or if they do not want to know, Bahais are not to argue, or blame them. They are still friends. So, in some views, this still may be called proselytizing, however with certain boundaries or regulations. So, is there a difference between teaching the faith and proselytizing? I would say, the difference is the intention. If teaching the faith is with the hope of converting, maybe then it is proselytizing. But it is hard to judge the intention, because that is hidden within.

 

[Trailblazer]

I could care less about a live Messenger.
But you whine about people ignoring your dude when he was alive. You can't have it both ways.

Where did you ever see me whining? I never whined. I do not care what other people believe.

Do you know that those who were closest to Baha’u’llah and knew Him personally were the ones who betrayed Him?
Jesus' closest pals betrayed him too. What that tells me is that they didn't command as much loyalty as they assumed. It tells me they probably knew something about the guy we don't.

What it tells me is that they were highly arrogant and wanted power. Their very actions back that up. They all fell flat on their faces and died an ignominious death. That demonstrates that God was not behind them in any way.

It is a serious subject matter if God exists.
Then let God deal with it.

God doesn’t need to. God already knows that He exists.

When I consider it with an honest mind, it is self-evident that the God of scriptures exists.
Which Ones, because the bible started off believing in quite a few. Later, monotheism was invented when priests wanted political and economic monopolies.

The ones that Baha’u’llah refers to in His Writings.

Christian belief is a selfish belief, only caring about getting to heaven.
Totally agreed, but since you believe that God doesn't really need nor care about our attitudes, it's moot, isn't it? No matter what we do or believe, God can just as easily send evil people to heaven and good people to hell if if floats His boat.

But God doesn’t do that. God is just and merciful.

 

[Trailblazer]

9-10ths_Penguin said: Proselytizing just means “to convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion to another.” There’s nothing inherently pejorative about it.

stvdv said: Agreed. It's just a sick habit. Why? Because converting implies telling the other "Your religion is inferior, I know best" = Arrogance, blasphemy.

I cannot speak for Adrian, but I have no desire to convert anyone to the Baha’i Faith. Baha’u’llah wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone else except himself, which means that everyone has to make their own decision what to believe. I would not want anyone to become a Baha’i unless they did the necessary investigation and made that decision for themselves. Thus I am not proselytizing, by the definition of the word:

Proselytize: convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another. https://www.google.com

Do you even realize how disrespectful it is to accuse people of proselytizing? When people say I am proselytizing, that is impugning a motive to me that I do not have. It is very arrogant for anyone to think they know the motives of another person and it is even worse when once that person has denied having that motive the accuser insists they know the motive – again. That is as much as calling that person a liar or at best telling that person you know them better than they know themselves... Baha’u’llah had a few words to say about this:

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

What Baha’u’llah has enjoined Baha’is to do is share and teach the Faith if people show an interest. All I do is share my beliefs and I teach people if they are interested in hearing more or if they ask me questions. This is not proselytizing by any stretch of the imagination.

Share: give a portion of (something) to another or others. https://www.google.com

Teach: show or explain to (someone) how to do something. https://www.google.com

adrian009 said: So there are many practices that come under proselytism that would be abhorent to Baha'is.

stvdv said: Glad to hear. One abhorent thing "People having the audacity to think/tell `My religion is better, I know best and can tell yours is inferior`" = spiritual ego/arrogance.

I never once heard Adrian or any Baha’i say our religion is better. At most, all we ever said is that it is more current than the older religions and it has what mankind needs in this new age. Myself, I have stepped out in a limb and said I believe it is the religion God wants us to follow in this new age, but I do not feel the least bit guilty for saying that because I am only repeating what Baha’u’llah wrote.

“Sharing” what Baha’u’llah wrote is in no way disrespecting anyone on the forum. If people get offended or angry or feel threatened by what I share it is not my fault. It shows that they do not have good boundaries between themselves and other people. If they do not like the Baha’i Faith, my suggestion is that they not go on threads and read about it. Nobody is twisting anyone’s arm to come on threads where Baha’is are posting. There are many, many threads on this forum people can choose to read and post on. Why not just stay away from the Baha’is if you do not like them?

9-10ths_Penguin said:Proselytizing doesn’t have to involve threats or coercion; it can also just involve trying to convince others to freely change their mind through reasoned arguments.

stvdv said:You are too nice IMO. The underlying sick red line is "I know best which religion is best for you = belittling the other = crippling self confidence"

Never did Adrian or any other Baha’i belittle anyone or say “I know best which religion is best for you.” I have never seen anyone as polite and respectful as Adrian. I am a lot more direct but still, I never said “I know best which religion is best for you” or even implied it. I only said what I believe and what Baha’u’llah wrote, period. Anything else you interpret from that is reading into what I said.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sai Baba claimed "I am God". So using your reasoning
B):
"if Sai Baba was who He claimed to be it is not just a belief, it is a reality". Never forget that because it has certain implications for everyone. God does not come down Himself because He got bored one day.

It is a serious matter when God sends HimSelf, whether people believe in Him or not. We are talking about the Almighty God here [now for real if it's true what He stated]

No, it is not a reality unless it is a reality. It is the evidence that backs up a religious claim and indicates if it is a reality, even though nobody can ever prove that, which is why it is called a belief and not a fact.

Anyone who would say “I am God” is suspect from the get go because that is so arrogant. Only God is God. I have never heard anything that outrageous. Baha’u’llah never claimed to be God. Even Jesus Christ denied being God.

Curious which option you choose. Your option is over 100 years old. My option is very recent. So following your logic, I guess you go to follow Sai Baba?

I am not basing what I believe on logic, although it is a very logical belief. I am basing what I believe upon the preponderance of evidence, which is proof to me that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be.

Aside from all the other evidence, I believe in Baha’u’llah because of His fruits, what He did on His mission and what He wrote. That is how Jesus said we would know if a prophet is true or false, by His fruits.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/fruit

You can choose whatever religion you want to because God have us all free will. I choose Baha’u’llah because it is self-evident to me from all the evidence that Baha’u’llah is “the Manifestation” of God for this age, the Great World Redeemer. Not everyone is going to see that or agree with it because we all see things differently.

 

[stvdv]

Anyone who would say “I am God” is suspect from the get go because that is so arrogant.

No it was not arrogant at all.
Because in the same sentence Sai Baba says "You are God as well; realize this is the goal of life"

This is called Advaita teaching