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Was Muhammad a good man?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by kassault37, Apr 18, 2013.

?
  1. He was a great man and those who insult him must be punished!

    60 vote(s)
    27.9%
  2. He was a great man, but people are free to insult him

    47 vote(s)
    21.9%
  3. He was not a good man, but we should respect him because I believe in respecting other religions

    23 vote(s)
    10.7%
  4. He was a terrible man and we should condemn his awful actions!

    85 vote(s)
    39.5%
  1. AmbiguousGuy

    AmbiguousGuy Well-Known Member

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    Every time I hear a conservative Christian say something like this, it hardens my resolve to oppose conservative Christianity everywhere i find it.

    A scary view of the world and life.
     
  2. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    I am not an athiest.
    Especially considering that in a lot of cases, "God" can mean just about anything.
     
  3. F0uad

    F0uad Well-Known Member

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    Yes there is, there are more verses that i can quote without any context behind the killings.

    Again many references in the OT about looting, hence the virgins were spared to become loot.

    You know you just made yourself look stupid after saying this right?

    1. Moses(pbuh) wasn't being attacked Mohammed(saws) was.
    2. Moses(pbuh) wasn't being hunted down and chased away from hes city Mohammed(saws) was.
    3. Moses's(pbuh) family wasn't killed/tortured and Mohammed's(saws) family was.
    4. Moses(pbuh) did not have anything in Israel that belonged to him, while the Pagans in Mecca stole Mohammed's(saws) and hes companions there possession so they had all the right to take it back.

    It wasn't Mohammed(saws) who attacked them but the Pagans were the ones they always fought outside of Medina and not Mecca yet Moses(pbuh) just marched and destroyed, plundered and killed everything alive according your own book.
    It is hypocrisy to say Moses(pbuh) wasn't violent yet he committed more killings and plunder according to your own book.


    Self centered reasons? A religion that exist from self centered reasons will never grow as big as Islam did.

    Your only argument is that you ''Belief'' Moses(pbuh) was ordered by god and Mohammed(saws) wasn't. :facepalm:


    I am not condemning what Islam says, i am condemning your hypocrisy moreover Islam never said that Moses(pbuh) was ordered to kill 3000 people , innocent children and to take the virgins as loot.

    So this is your argument? :sarcastic If you read the sources you can clearly see he belief he is told so by God as is Moses(pbuh).

    As we know Mohammed(saws) went to Mecca without killing a single person when God ordered him, yet these people killed hes family members, hes friends and hes companions in a period of 10 years or longer. He did not seek justice or revenge but mercy, would you do the same if your family members, friends got butchered in-front of your eyes and you got chased away from your hometown?

    Ps: Mohammed(saws) fought next to hes friend he was no coward he was a brave man and afraid of nothing except god.
     
    #1523 F0uad, Nov 10, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2013
  4. Monk Of Reason

    Monk Of Reason ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

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    No. Against every secular reasoning this is immoral. Untill such time god comes down himself to kill societies there is no moral justification for any horrific crimes on humanity such as these in any religion.
     
  5. AmbiguousGuy

    AmbiguousGuy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, and anyone can stand up and declare, "I am God's prophet, and God has just told me that we should massacre the Mexicans! He has His reasons! Don't question God! Obviously it is good and right to massacre the Mexican children!"

    When God rides on your shoulder, all morality can be left behind.
     
  6. AbrahimG

    AbrahimG Abrahim G

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    In today's mostly secular world, it's seen as a crime for girls under 16 to get married. But, it wasn't just Muhammad who did this. Mary also got married at a young age, I think 11 or 12. It is accepted in all religions for people to marry young girls, so you can't just point the finger at Prophet Muhammad. In christianity, the minimum is 8 years old i think. Also, another reason is because in the old times people only used to live for 60 years maximum, so it seemed common sense for a girl to get married early.
    Hope I helped.
     
  7. DawudTalut

    DawudTalut Peace be upon you.

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    Peace be on you. There are people who deny God and there are people who call bad names to God too. There are people who deny the noblel Prophets of God and call them names too. There were many who could see light in Prophet Moses (on whom be peace) and yet there were some who could not see that light. Similarly, Prophet Jesus (on whom be peace) came for reformation but he was accepted by some and denied by some others. When corruption filled the land, God was associated with gods, Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) was sent. He remined the people that theirs is One God, he reminded people to pay human rights. But like all men of God, various mafias saw the closure of their businesses if his (s.a.w.) message was accepted. They tried their best by employing all possible kind of continuous persecution to the new converts but message of God slowly continued to enter into minds and hearts and tongues uttered words of acceptance and bodies prostrated at the threshold of One God. Mafias boycotted the believers too. When mafias made it hard for believers to live in Mecca, they migrated to Madina. Even there, they were not spared. Time after time, they came after them with various labels of reasons. After the believers' patience of 13 years for absobing harsh persecutions and killings, Allah gave them permission to fight back for defense. All the fights took place near Madina, the place of refuge of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) and believers which clearly shows that infidels were hostile party. During these wars Islam grew slowly. But after the Peace Treaty of Hudaybia growth became rrapid. Here are some statistical records:


    1= From the 2nd year of migration of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) to Madina, the infidels came after believers to finish them and Islam.

    2= In 2nd year of migration, first battle of Badar was imposed by nonbelievers on muslim, they brought fully armed big army of 1000 plus in the disguise that it was to protect trade caravan; muslim had practcially no wepons and they were about 300.


    3= In 3rd year of migration, second battle of O’had, muslims were about 700.


    4= In 5th year of migration, third battle (of Trench), muslims were about 3000. It took place very near to Madina, thus more than normal number of muslims were able to participate.


    5= In 6th year of migration, Peace Treaty of Hudaybia took place between believers and non believers. At Hudabiya Treaty, muslim presence was around 1500.


    6= Hence, in this period of 4 or 5 years of battles and unrest, muslims increased from 300 to 3000 ( or to 1500 if battle of Trench is considered as normal mark)

    7= Because of Hudaybiya Treaty, there was rest for about 2 years, and muslim could convey message of God with peace all around; from poors to Kings. And people could hear and accept the message without fear.


    8= In 8th year of migration, nonbelievers openly violated Hudabiya Treaty when they planned to attack on an ally tribe of muslims. According to the accords, muslims were demanded by that tribe for help………. On that occasion, the marching believers toward Mecca were 10,000. Mecca fell to the blessed Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) peacefully and everybody was free to believe whatever they wanted to.


    PLEASE COMPARE THE RESULTS
    i-- In 5 years time of imposed wars, muslim could reach to 3000.
    ii-- After Hudabiya Peace Treaty, in 2 years time of peaceful preahing, 7000 more people accepted the faith ( total faithfuls coming to Mecca ,on that day of fall, were10,000 plus)….

    More Related Information Introduction to the Study of The Holy Quran

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There are many non-Muslims who praise(d) Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.). For example:
    PRINGLE KENNEDY
    MICHAEL H HART
    SIR THOMAS CARLYLE
    J. H. DENISON
    S.P. SCOTT
    LAMARTINE
    SIR WILLIAM MUIR
    SIR JOHN GLUBB
    MONTGOMERY WATT
    WILL DURANT
    ALFRED GUILLAME
    REV. BOSWELL SMITH

    KAREN ARMSTRONG, a modern research scholar of Islam, wrote in her book:
    MAJOR A. LEONARD

    Reference : The Holy Prophet Muhammad in the Eyes of Non-Muslims

    [HOLY QURAN , Surah Al-Ahzab Chapter 33 : Verse 57] Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! you also should invoke blessings on him and salute him with the salutation of peace.
     
    #1527 DawudTalut, Nov 11, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2013
  8. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    You as a human grant other humans the right to take life. Yet in every single category which justify that God infinitely exceeds our qualifications. I get you do not like a God in charge of what he created but that is not an argument. In what way does what you like make anything true or false, wrong or right, or morally justifiable or not? In what way is a God who has no sovereignty over life, actually God? You have used double standards, logical incoherence, and self contradiction all in a 3 sentence argument.

    You must show God is unjustified in taking he life he created. I am standing by.

    Crap, I just realized who it was I was responding to.
     
  9. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    You as a human grant other humans the right to take life. Yet in every single category which justify that God infinitely exceeds our qualifications. I get you do not like a God in charge of what he created but that is not an argument. In what way does what you like make anything true or false, wrong or right, or morally justifiable or not? In what way is a God who has no sovereignty over life, actually God? You have used double standards, logical incoherence, and self contradiction all in a 3 sentence argument.

    You must show God is unjustified in taking he life he created. I am standing by.
     
  10. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    I am not an athiest.
    Only to whatever extent I don't have any choice about it.

    OK, 1Robin? Do me a favor man: read that last sentence and ask yourself, "If someone else had written this, would I have any idea what they were trying to say?"

    And I'm curious where you "got" that from, although I know it would be pointless to ask.

    You're confused. When I said this:
    I wasn't talking about God, I was talking about "God". That's why those quotation marks are there.

    And if your next question is going to be, "What's the difference", then there's really no point in trying to explain it to you.
     
  11. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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  12. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    What? Secular reasoning granted human beings the right to kill innocent life in the womb as a form of birth control. In every single category secularists use to grant human authorities with the right to take life God exceeds them infinitely in qualifications. Now if you deny any human that would at least be consistent. Do you? You would still not have the slightest qualifications to suggest God was ever unjustified but at least you would not be contradicting your self. I think your point mainly had to do with what humans do in God's authority. Outside of the few Biblical authors who gave evidence for their claim to prophet hood I would be inclined to agree in principle. If God ordered a person to kill another (I mean he actually did so) then on what basis could you ever claim he was unjustified? I however do not defend humans outside of Biblical prophets.
     
  13. AmbiguousGuy

    AmbiguousGuy Well-Known Member

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    Huh? Really, I can't follow whatever you are trying to say. Your second sentence seems not to follow any sort of grammatical order. Do you want to try a rewrite?

    You have no idea what I think about God. Frankly, I'm not at all sure that you understand what you yourself think about God.

    What I reject is a psychopathic, genocidal God. I wish you did the same. It would make me feel so much safer.

    Ask yourself the same question. Just because you desperately need to know God's Truth, you swallow the Bible as the Sacred and Literal Word of God. Then you must accept that God kills innocent women and children. He's God, you say. He can do whatever He wants.

    That's you justifying a monster God. But thankfully God isn't really a monster. Just because you like to believe the Bible as literal word of God... that doesn't make it true that God kills innocents.

    You have no idea what I think about God. Which is strange since I've been telling you about it for well over a year now. Does it ever occur to you to actually pay attention to the others here in this place -- to try and understand how they see things?
     
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  14. F0uad

    F0uad Well-Known Member

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  15. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Do you not grant police, Judges, executioners, and soldiers the right to take life when necessary or thought so? Do not allow doctors, pharmacists, etc... to risk taking life?


    I know very well what I think about God but it does not matter. My faith comes from knowing God not understanding him in every respect. That is quite impossible anyway. However we are discussing actual recorded events not the inexhaustible scope of God's entire character.

    I do as well. My God has killed less than .001% of people and far more than that deserve death. He also saved everyone in history not too biased or proud to accept it. Did yours? My God took life when necessary and they account for the smallest fraction of lives we have taken. Stalin alone killed twenty times more in one lifetime than God has in 5000 years. If he is genocidal he is not very good at it. If I get cancer I hope it is a inept at killing me.

    Unflattering terminology minus any evidence it is accurate is not an argument.


    Actually I spent my childhood in Church yet came to think the Bible was full of garbage when my mother died. I was drug kicking and screaming to a belief it is true based on it being so true I no longer could deny it. I tried as so many have to negate it and was unable to do so, so like CS Lewis, Chesterton, and so many other brilliant me I gave it up and surrendered to Christ. The fact Christ responded simply put the nail in the Bible is not true case. There is nothing about my faith that is wishful thinking.

    Again your terminology independent from evidence is not an argument. It is emotional rhetoric.


    I did not mention you. I mentioned something true of a concept. God in the Bible and in philosophy is a creator with maximal great making properties. A God who does not have sovereignty is not my God and is a logical contradiction.

    I will make this as easy as I can for you. Demonstrate that if God killed every person on Earth in 2 weeks he has done anything that violates any aspect of his nature. That is as easy as I can possibly make it.
     
  16. AmbiguousGuy

    AmbiguousGuy Well-Known Member

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    Obviously I do. Now do you have some point to make related to my acknowledgement that I grant some people the right to kill?

    By the way, the one person whom I do not grant the right to kill? A prophet of God.

    If a man tells me that God wants to kill all (or any) of a city's inhabitants and encourages the army to go and kill them? I vote to imprison that prophet of God before he can pretend to speak any further for God. If he won't shut up, I say let's kill him. Better to lose one nut than for the city to suffer genocide.

    If only someone had done that to Joshua.

    So why do you assume that you know God better than I do? Seriously. It's pretty clear that you are not smarter than me. Nor more educated than me. Nor more wise or spiritual than me.

    So why do you assume that your God knowledge is truer than my God knowledge?

    Just because you think so? Or is there some good reason?

    The Bible is surely not a record of historical events. Anyone who has the least knowledge of history can see that.

    Yikes. So he kills women and children, but he hasn't killed so many of them? Yikes.

    He commits genocide, but he only does it now and again? Goodness.

    My God never condemned anyone to eternal damnation and therefore had no need to save anyone from eternal damnation.

    But if you are too biased or proud to accept this truth about God, well....

    Sure. And it's just coincidence that you have wound up following the same Holy Book as you grew up with? That's what you think?

    You think that a map of the world's religions just coincidentally shows that religions are region-specific?

    Not me. I think Indonesians tend to be Muslims because their parents and culture are Muslim. And I think 1robin is a Christian because he has embraced the beliefs of his family, friends, culture and childhood.

    Great making properties? I'm afraid I have no idea what that might mean to you.

    Whatever you prefer to believe about the nature of God, you should believe, I guess.

    It sure gives the lie to 'All-Loving,' doesn't it?

    Or does He kill us because He loves us... as the psychopaths in the movies like to say?
     
    #1536 AmbiguousGuy, Nov 12, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
  17. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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  18. F0uad

    F0uad Well-Known Member

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  19. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    #1539 1robin, Nov 12, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
  20. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    I question your notion of "goodness" in conjunction with at what age he married a young person. Are ethics regarding marriage tied into a cultural phenomena you simply disagree with, or are you using his marriage as a stepping stone to a much large ethical issue?
     
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