Was Lewis Carroll a Paedophile?

[exchemist]

It was no error. "Might have" is a choice for those who are leaning towards believing that Carroll was a paedophile but have doubts and cannot conclude that he was an obvious paedophile, whereas "Might not have" is for those leaning towards having the opinion that Carroll was not a paedophile but believe because the lack of evidence presented they cannot solidly come to the conclusion that he was indeed a paedophile

I've no doubt that is what you intended, but unfortunately that is not what those phrases mean, at least in British English - maybe it's different in American.

Anyway I think he was probably not, but I have not filled in the poll.

 

[Brickjectivity]

From the wikipedia article for Alice Liddell, I get this quote: "Alice Liddell's biographer, Anne Clark, writes that Alice's descendants were under the impression that Dodgson wanted to marry her, but that 'Alice's parents expected a much better match for her.' Clark argues that in Victorian England such arrangements were not as improbable as they might seem"

So maybe what happened here was that Alice got a crush on him, and the family thought it was inappropriate to continue friendship with him. His social standing and income may have had something to do with it or perhaps her family came into some better connections.

 

[exchemist]

Some further information:

I've just looked up Wiki and the picture it paints (as it were!) is very much in line with what I recollect from college days: Lewis Carroll - Wikipedia

Note especially what it has to say about depictions of child nudity, which were seen at the time as quite innocent, unlike in our modern, sexualised and pornography-obsessed, age.

This link also gives the lie to what the OP unpleasantly insinuates about Dodgson's relationships with adult women.

 

[exchemist]

Lighten up, Reverend. I got your point: Conservative upper-class British had (and may still have) propensities to paedophilia. The really big mystery, IMO, is which of those factors promotes those propensities the most.

Evidence?

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Evidence?

Pederasty - Wikipedia
When I was at school ...
How did paedophilia come to be such a problem in Britain? | Coffee House
https://www.smh.com.au/world/silver...britains-private-schools-20170406-gvever.html
England's Embarrassing, Horrific Pedophilia Coverups
20 establishment figures 'in elite paedophile ring'
How Thatcher’s Government Covered Up a VIP Pedophile Ring

 

[exchemist]

Aha! Further evidence that Lewis Carroll was indeed a paedophile! He was throughout his life rather contemptuous of adult women in positions of authority and of strong character. So he would never be able to develop any attraction towards them and probably subverted his desire for female companionship towards prepubescent schoolgirls

I think you are making this up. Do you have any evidence for it?

Pederasty - Wikipedia
When I was at school ...
How did paedophilia come to be such a problem in Britain? | Coffee House
https://www.smh.com.au/world/silver...britains-private-schools-20170406-gvever.html
England's Embarrassing, Horrific Pedophilia Coverups
20 establishment figures 'in elite paedophile ring'
How Thatcher’s Government Covered Up a VIP Pedophile Ring

You do realise a lot of this was made up, do you? The person responsible for four of these stories is now on trial for perverting [sic] the course of justice: 'VIP paedophile ring' accuser named

Furthermore, you seem to be making the mistake that makes our gay friends so angry; equating homosexuality with paedophilia.

There certainly were and are teachers at private schools that fancy the pupils, but then so there are at all schools, as plenty of media stories attest. Not many of these would qualify as paedophilia however, given the age and sexual maturity of the pupils concerned.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

From the wikipedia article for Alice Liddell, I get this quote: "Alice Liddell's biographer, Anne Clark, writes that Alice's descendants were under the impression that Dodgson wanted to marry her, but that 'Alice's parents expected a much better match for her.' Clark argues that in Victorian England such arrangements were not as improbable as they might seem"

So maybe what happened here was that Alice got a crush on him, and the family thought it was inappropriate to continue friendship with him. His social standing and income may have had something to do with it or perhaps her family came into some better connections.

But what did he see in a six year old girl that he wished to marry her?

 

[exchemist]

But what did he see in a six year old girl that he wished to marry her?

Alice was ten, not six, when he created Alice in Wonderland and he knew the family for a quite a number of years.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

I think you are making this up. Do you have any evidence for it?

You do realise a lot of this was made up, do you? The person responsible for four of these stories is now on trial for perverting [sic] the course of justice: 'VIP paedophile ring' accuser named

Furthermore, you seem to be making the mistake that makes our gay friends so angry; equating homosexuality with paedophilia.

That Carl Beech story is a whole other case and different from the cases I cited from various legitimate news sources. I didn't cite any tabloids and I am not equating homosexuality and paedophilia but I am suggesting that there might possibility a culture of paedophilia and that some are conditioned by traditions to accept it has a normal and become orientated to it. If a person is sexualized as a child and find sexual pleasure in children, they might find that they are still sexually attracted to young children (whether male or female, it matters not) as adults. And from what I read pederasty exists in boarding schools and those men grow up condition to find children sexual attractive, they didn't become homosexuals but became paedophiles

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Alice was ten, not six, when he created Alice in Wonderland and he knew the family for a quite a number of years.

Then what did he see in a ten year old girl that he wanted to marry her? I suggested that the attraction to her might have started at her being 6 years old because of the missing diary pages they start missing from April 18 1858 to May 8 1862. Then the Liddell break off with Carroll at June 1863 for reasons that only can be speculated when Alice was 11 years of age.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I think it certainly looks like he had paedophilic tendencies. Whether he ever acted on them is a different matter.

 

[exchemist]

That Carl Beech story is a whole other case and different from the cases I cited from various legitimate news sources. I didn't cite any tabloids and I am not equating homosexuality and paedophilia but I am suggesting that there might possibility a culture of paedophilia and that some are conditioned by traditions to accept it has a normal and become orientated to it. If a person is sexualized as a child and find sexual pleasure in children, they might find that they are still sexually attracted to young children (whether male or female, it matters not) as adults. And from what I read pederasty exists in boarding schools and those men grow up condition to find children sexual attractive, they didn't become homosexuals but became paedophiles

I am aware that is what you are suggesting and I am challenging it. Four of the seven links you offered relate to the Carl Beech allegations. Of the other three, two are collections of anecdotes about homosexuality at single sex schools.

So what we are left with is the Wiki article on pederasty. This too is not actually clear-cut paedophilia, but homoeroticism between an adult and a teenager. Certainly very reprehensible where there is an unbalanced power relationship, as at school (and would now cause instant dismissal and a police investigation).

None of this has any bearing whatever, so far as I can see, on speculations about the supposed fondness of Charles Dodgson (a male) for little girls (female).

 

[exchemist]

Then what did he see in a ten year old girl that he wanted to marry her? I suggested that the attraction to her might have started at her being 6 years old because of the missing diary pages they start missing from April 18 1858 to May 8 1862. Then the Liddell break off with Carroll at June 1863 for reasons that only can be speculated when Alice was 11 years of age.

There is no evidence that he did want to marry her. It is a mere speculation, one of many. If you read the rest of the Wiki article you will see that a number of other, less speculative, reasons are also given, one being that he might have been courting the Liddell children's governess. (Dodgson does seem in fact to have had a number of relationships with adult women, contrary to your earlier statements.)

 

[SomeRandom]

I am sorry if I am ruining your childhood but there seems to be evidence that Lewis Carroll the author of the children's classic made into a well known Disney film called Alice in Wonderland may have indeed been a pedophile. Some questions must be answered.

What was obsession with Alice Liddell?
Why did he write what could be construed as rather florid love poetry to her?
Why was he obsessed with photographing and drawing nude children?
Why is he not known to have developed a meaningful adult relationship with an adult woman?
Why was he so politically conservative?
Why did the Liddell family refuse to let Alice go alone with Carroll to the lakehouse for a picnic?
Why did the Liddell family break off with Carroll?
Where are the missing diaries and what did they contain?
Why was he refused ordination into the Anglican Church?

So was Lewis Carroll a paedophile? You be the judge. And remember people that Carroll was also the product of the British upper class school system.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.
Though I will point out that during the 1800s nude photography of children was actually seen as an example of innocence and purity. And many photographers of the day did them because that’s just what they did back then.

I assume this is how Mr Dodgson convinced his friends that he was merely doing the photoshoots because of his aesthetic appreciation. Maybe he was being truthful, maybe not, I don’t know.

As for the abrupt cut off. Meh, he could have merely said something that offended the “lord of the manor.” This is the Victorians we’re talking about, after all.
Perhaps they saw him as beneath them. Victorian social politics be snooty as hell.

His obsession could just be because he wanted to date her governess or she was his “muse” and he being an artsy stoner type obsessed.
Which is just what some artists do.

Also marriage laws were quite different and it wasn’t uncommon for ladies as young as 12 or 13 to be courted and married back then. The legal age of consent for marriage didn’t start getting upped until like the late 1900s.
Match making could start even earlier, by the parents. Assuming you wanted to focus on even that angle. Though I don’t know if he wanted to marry Miss Lindell or not.

As for florid love poetry, he was an author who was probably high a lot. Waxing poetic seems normal given the circumstances.

Was he a pedophile? Not sure. Potentially. But I remain unconvinced, ultimately. Too many second hand accounts and speculations after the fact.

The evidence is a bit shaky, regardless. And fails to take into account the vastly different cultures and societal expectations.

As a random aside, IIRC, the Disney film ironically resembles Through the looking glass more than Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland.

 

[Brickjectivity]

But what did he see in a six year old girl that he wished to marry her?

Not six. When her family broke relations when him she was already 13, but he had known her since she was 3. So its more like what did he see in a 13 year old girl. The thing is that it may have been the other way around, and she may have had a crush not him. Girls get crushes early on. He seemed clueless, and as pointed out obsessed with logic games, almost certainly awkward. Anyways if I were a Victorian and my 13 year old daughter was crushing on a young man whom I felt was unsuitable I'd do the same thing. I'd absolutely cut off relations. She never expressed any bad feelings about Dodgson when she grew up. If he had been creepy she might have said something about it.

Alice Liddell - Wikipedia

Who knows though? Different times. Dodgson may even have been one of those individuals who didn't know what sex was. That happened in those years.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Not six. When her family broke relations when him she was already 13, but he had known her since she was 3. So its more like what did he see in a 13 year old girl. The thing is that it may have been the other way around, and she may have had a crush not him. Girls get crushes early on. He seemed clueless, and as pointed out obsessed with logic games, almost certainly awkward. Anyways if I were a Victorian and my 13 year old daughter was crushing on a young man whom I felt was unsuitable I'd do the same thing. I'd absolutely cut off relations. She never expressed any bad feelings about Dodgson when she grew up. If he had been creepy she might have said something about it.

Alice Liddell - Wikipedia

Who knows though? Different times. Dodgson may even have been one of those individuals who didn't know what sex was. That happened in those years.

According to Wikipedia I think she was about 11 years old when they broke off. 11 is still rather young.

 

[David T]

Care to give details about which claims in physics it contradicts? If anything, entropy says that information is guaranteed to be lost to some extent.

Care to give details about which claims in physics it contradicts? If anything, entropy says that information is guaranteed to be lost to some extent.

One may wonder if there is any such law for the conservation of information. In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted perfectly. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum informationshould mean that information cannot be created nor destroyed.


Yes yes i already know what you are going to say. Although i say thats an interesting contradictory statement between classical and quantum!

 

[The Reverend Bob]

One may wonder if there is any such law for the conservation of information. In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted perfectly. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum informationshould mean that information cannot be created nor destroyed.


Yes yes i already know what you are going to say. Although i say thats an interesting contradictory statement between classical and quantum!

And what does this have to do with whether Lewis Carroll is paedophile or not? Did you have trouble paying attention in school?

 

[David T]

And what does this have to do with whether Lewis Carroll is paedophile or not? Did you have trouble paying attention in school?

Dont you know how to read either? Thats pitiful. Should i draw stick figures?

Polymath understood exactly what context my statement was made in. I didnt have to draw pictures for him. Now i know factually poly is very very very smart.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Evidence?

Evidence of what? That the OP author's point is that Conservative upper-class British had (and may still have) propensities to paedophilia? Ok, so technically the Reverend Bob didn't actually say that. He said that that possibility "is a mystery that needs to be resolved". So, did The Reverend even actually ask that question? Gee, I dunno ...

• From the OP:
  • ... there seems to be evidence that Lewis Carroll ... may have indeed been a pedophile. Some questions must be answered.
  • Why was he so politically conservative?
  • So was Lewis Carroll a paedophile? You be the judge. And remember people that Carroll was also the product of the British upper class school system.
• I connect The Reverend's dots, to wit: "Question that needs to be resolved - Lewis Carroll, conservative, British, upperclass, and possible paedophophile?"
• I also reason that, if The Reverend didn't think those dots are not connected, he wouldn't have drawn them.
• When I responded with: "Christian support for Trump and PopeaDope's mental illness are mysteries that need to be resolved. Lewis Carroll's fondness for little girls may be a mystery for some, but it doesn't need to be resolved", he called me a "cultural philistine"and essentially told me to buzz off.
• Then, when I responded: "Lighten up, Reverend. I got your point: Conservative upper-class British had (and may still have) propensities to paedophilia. The really big mystery, IMO, is which of those factors promotes those propensities the most. " ["The really big mystery" being the most ridiculous mystery I could think of at the moment.] The Reverend answered: "That is something that indeed needs to be investigated and it as to why I included it in my series of questions about the alleged paedophilia of Lewis Carroll."

Before you quibble over the quality of my comments in this thread, I think you ought to dedicate your attention and efforts to ascertaining whether or not The Reverend thinks the dots that I see constitute (a) a mystery and (b) that needs to be solved.

On the other hand, if you're asking me for evidence that conservative, upperclass Brits had (and may still have) paedophile propensities, you're asking the wrong person. The Reverend, IMHO, seems to think that at least one did and that those propensities were not a one-person phenomenon.