Was Lewis Carroll a Paedophile?

[Father Heathen]

It's impossible to know what went on in the minds of these artists, or what might have happened to them to cause them to express themselves as they did. This guy wrote a 15 THOUSAND page manuscript entitled: "The Story of the Vivian Girls, in What Is Known as the Realms of the Unreal, of the Glandeco-Angelinian War Storm, Caused by the Child Slave Rebellion". He also created many painted collages of children in various stages of undress.

Meet Henry Darger ... an 'outsider' artist from Chicago IL.

Holy ****.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Lighten up, Reverend. I got your point: Conservative upper-class British had (and may still have) propensities to paedophilia. The really big mystery, IMO, is which of those factors promotes those propensities the most.

That is something that indeed needs to be investigated and it as to why I included it in my series of questions about the alleged paedophilia of Lewis Carroll

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Holy ****.

And there is the possibility that Henry Darger might have been a serial killer. But that is a subject to be debated in another thread in my series of threads about literary figures.

 

[PureX]

Perhaps the author's rather traumatic childhood could explain much.

Or maybe not.

In the case of Balthus, it's very possible that he was deliberately using the sexually charged 'content' of semi-exposed adolescent females to pull the viewer into his work and force them to confront something within themselves. Or perhaps he was fascinated by a natural phenomenon that he was seeing expressed by and within these young women, and wanted to share it. The reason it's hard to know is because artists employ 'artifice'. What you see is deliberate, and so is what you don't see. There is always an ulterior motive behind the apparent 'narrative'.

Is he really a 'perv' or is this another staged image? We know it's staged, because it's a photograph, but that doesn't mean he's NOT still a perv, ... doesn't mean he is, though, either. He could just be a clever visual artist doing what visual artists do: telling stories through images.

 

[Father Heathen]

And there is the possibility that Henry Darger might have been a serial killer. But that is a subject to be debated in another thread in my series of threads about literary figures.

Oh, wow... People get tats of his work:

Spoiler: nsfw

 

[Father Heathen]

Or maybe not.

In the case of Balthus, it's very possible that he was deliberately using the sexually charged 'content' of semi-exposed adolescent females to pull the viewer into his work and force them to confront something within themselves. Or perhaps he was fascinated by a natural phenomenon that he was seeing expressed by and within these young women, and wanted to share it. The reason it's hard to know is because artists employ 'artifice'. What you see is deliberate, and so is what you don't see. There is always an ulterior motive behind the apparent 'narrative'.

Is he really a 'perv' or is this another staged image? We know it's staged, because it's a photograph, but that doesn't mean he's NOT still a perv, ... doesn't mean he is, though, either. He could just be a clever visual artist doing what visual artists do: telling stories through images.

Her eyes say a lot.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Or maybe not.

In the case of Balthus, it's very possible that he was deliberately using the sexually charged 'content' of semi-exposed adolescent females to pull the viewer into his work and force them to confront something within themselves. Or perhaps he was fascinated by a natural phenomenon that he was seeing expressed by and within these young women, and wanted to share it. The reason it's hard to know is because artists employ 'artifice'. What you see is deliberate, and so is what you don't see. There is always an ulterior motive behind the apparent 'narrative'.

Is he really a 'perv' or is this another staged image? We know it's staged, because it's a photograph, but that doesn't mean he's NOT still a perv, ... doesn't mean he is, though, either. He could just be a clever visual artist doing what visual artists do: telling stories through images.

The young lady in the photograph does look rather uncomfortable. I wonder if she is indeed acting the part or is in fact uncomfortable within his presence. Another mystery to be resolved.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Her eyes say a lot.

Look at her posture. She is almost cringing and the position of her arms seem to indicate that she is closing herself off to him, putting up a barrier.

 

[David T]

I am sorry if I am ruining your childhood but there seems to be evidence that Lewis Carroll the author of the children's classic made into a well known Disney film called Alice in Wonderland may have indeed been a pedophile. Some questions must be answered.

What was obsession with Alice Liddell?
Why did he write what could be construed as rather florid love poetry to her?
Why was he obsessed with photographing and drawing nude children?
Why is he not known to have developed a meaningful adult relationship with an adult woman?
Why was he so politically conservative?
Why did the Liddell family refuse to let Alice go alone with Carroll to the lakehouse for a picnic?
Why did the Liddell family break off with Carroll?
Where are the missing diaries and what did they contain?
Why was he refused ordination into the Anglican Church?

So was Lewis Carroll a paedophile? You be the judge. And remember people that Carroll was also the product of the British upper class school system.

Obviously the entire culture was pedophilic.. Never mind the reality probably was mu h much more complex than that.
Common art....

 

[PureX]

Her eyes say a lot.

And that may be exactly what the artist sees, and wants to use as 'content' in his work, to draw us in and to make us think, ... uncomfortably. A thousand other girls would not have had that same look of vulnerability and innocence. Perfect for the photograph.

 

[David T]

We'll probably never know for certain. There's just too much information missing to completely prove or disprove the theory that he was sexually attracted to children.

There is however enough information for the question to have been raised in the first place and to cast suspicion on why we don't have the complete picture. Personally, If somebody uncovered conclusive proof that he was attracted to little girls, I wouldn't be all that shocked.

You have just claimed information is infact lost!!! I think that contradicts some claims in physics.

 

[Brickjectivity]

This should answer some of the questions.

10 Amazing Facts About Harriet Beecher Stowe

That came up as a link about Harriet Beecher Stowe not Lewis Carol.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

That came up as a link about Harriet Beecher Stowe not Lewis Carol.

I was kind of wondering about that.

 

[PureX]

For some reason the sons of Baladine Klossowska were obsessed with themes of paraphilia. I wonder why.

Wealth and fame tend to be addictive. I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

[Polymath257]

You have just claimed information is infact lost!!! I think that contradicts some claims in physics.

Care to give details about which claims in physics it contradicts? If anything, entropy says that information is guaranteed to be lost to some extent.

 

[sooda]

That came up as a link about Harriet Beecher Stowe not Lewis Carol.

That's weird.. Sorry.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Care to give details about which claims in physics it contradicts? If anything, entropy says that information is guaranteed to be lost to some extent.

I don't why he is arguing physics in a thread about a literary figure, maybe he got lost on his way to another thread.

 

[BSM1]

I am sorry if I am ruining your childhood but there seems to be evidence that Lewis Carroll the author of the children's classic made into a well known Disney film called Alice in Wonderland may have indeed been a pedophile. Some questions must be answered.

What was obsession with Alice Liddell?
Why did he write what could be construed as rather florid love poetry to her?
Why was he obsessed with photographing and drawing nude children?
Why is he not known to have developed a meaningful adult relationship with an adult woman?
Why was he so politically conservative?
Why did the Liddell family refuse to let Alice go alone with Carroll to the lakehouse for a picnic?
Why did the Liddell family break off with Carroll?
Where are the missing diaries and what did they contain?
Why was he refused ordination into the Anglican Church?

So was Lewis Carroll a paedophile? You be the judge. And remember people that Carroll was also the product of the British upper class school system.

The real question is where can we get some of those mushrooms he was evidently ingesting?

Probably he was.

J M Barrie was probably a boylover.

Soooo....what does this say about J.R.R. Tolkien (asking for a friend)?

 

[exchemist]

I am sorry if I am ruining your childhood but there seems to be evidence that Lewis Carroll the author of the children's classic made into a well known Disney film called Alice in Wonderland may have indeed been a pedophile. Some questions must be answered.

What was obsession with Alice Liddell?
Why did he write what could be construed as rather florid love poetry to her?
Why was he obsessed with photographing and drawing nude children?
Why is he not known to have developed a meaningful adult relationship with an adult woman?
Why was he so politically conservative?
Why did the Liddell family refuse to let Alice go alone with Carroll to the lakehouse for a picnic?
Why did the Liddell family break off with Carroll?
Where are the missing diaries and what did they contain?
Why was he refused ordination into the Anglican Church?

So was Lewis Carroll a paedophile? You be the judge. And remember people that Carroll was also the product of the British upper class school system.

Most commentators seem not to think he was, or not seriously so.

There is something wrong with your poll by the way. "Might have been" and "might not have been" have the same meaning, from the point of view of logic. You should have said something "was probably" and "was probably not". I think he was probably not.

There is naive tendency among some people to judge Victorians by today's view of "normal" behaviour. They lived in a very different world, very idealistic and romantic in some ways, and it is reading history backwards to project our preoccupations onto them without factoring in those differences. They had, in particular, a romantic and idealised view of childhood. This link explains more: Perceptions of childhood

Dodgson may have been attracted to little girls, but so what? Little girls can, after all, be delightful. That does not make him automatically a sexual pervert.

(I should say that Dodgson was a maths don at my former college, where Liddell was Dean, so I have been exposed to arguments both ways about him. I don't find either wholly conclusive and am thus inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.)

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Might have been and might not have been have the same meaning,

It was no error. "Might have" is a choice for those who are leaning towards believing that Carroll was a paedophile but have doubts and cannot conclude that he was an obvious paedophile, whereas "Might not have" is for those leaning towards having the opinion that Carroll was not a paedophile but believe because the lack of evidence presented they cannot solidly come to the conclusion that he was indeed a paedophile