Was Jesus the Messiah, according to Prophecy?

[ForeverFaithful]

I was speaking with my friends Rabbi lately and he is obviously still waiting for the Messiah, and I understand Jews have pointed the finger at Christians for "selectively" reading prophecies, however I'd really like to hear from anyone learnt on this subject what their conclusions.

 

[Sleeppy]

You could do a search on 'Jews for Jesus', as well.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Jews reject Jesus as the messiah because they believe he didn't fulfill OT prophecies pertaining to the messiah. There were several that Jews considered of utmost importance for a person to be considered the messiah. One was that he would bring all Jews back to the promised land, which Jesus did not do. They expected the messiah to bring about world peace, which Jesus did not do. They expected the vanquishing of their enemies, which Jesus did not do. These are the three things that stick out in my mind of certain things they expected of the messiah that Jesus did not fulfill.

 

[Walkntune]

Psalms118:22The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Psalms118:22The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

That would be pertinent to Jesus, if he had actually fulfilled OT messianic prophecies.

 

[ForeverFaithful]

Jews reject Jesus as the messiah because they believe he didn't fulfill OT prophecies pertaining to the messiah. There were several that Jews considered of utmost importance for a person to be considered the messiah. One was that he would bring all Jews back to the promised land, which Jesus did not do. They expected the messiah to bring about world peace, which Jesus did not do. They expected the vanquishing of their enemies, which Jesus did not do. These are the three things that stick out in my mind of certain things they expected of the messiah that Jesus did not fulfill.

Is the Church not the spiritual Israel all Jews are invited two?
Would there not be world peace if we all followed Christ's words of Love your enemy?
Did Jesus not conquer the Romans with love?

 

[Bob Dixon]

Everyone will tell you something different.
I say, "yes".
A lot of people say, "no".

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Is the Church not the spiritual Israel all Jews are invited two?
Would there not be world peace if we all followed Christ's words of Love your enemy?
Did Jesus not conquer the Romans with love?

1. That depends on your theology. The view is called 'supercessionism' and is followed by Catholics, Orthodox, and some traditionalist Protestants. This is the idea that the church has replaced Israel as God's chosen. However, many Protestants do not subscribe to this view, believing rather that God has two dispensations, one to the Jews, and one to the Christians.
2. There would also be world peace if everyone was forced to follow the Buddha's teaching in the same vein. Loving one's enemies is not unique to Christianity.
3. Jesus never conquered the Romans. They persecuted the Christians for three hundred years after Jesus' passing, and in the most horrific of ways. Then the Roman Empire slowly turned toward Christianity, with Emperor Theodosius II (NOT Constantine the Great) making Christianity the official religion of the empire around 380 CE. But this brought about an whole host of other problems. Christianity would fight against itself, as well as everyone else, from this point onward until today.

 

[Shermana]

Is the Church not the spiritual Israel all Jews are invited two?
Would there not be world peace if we all followed Christ's words of Love your enemy?
Did Jesus not conquer the Romans with love?

"Spiritual Israel" means the True Israel. Are you familiar with the prophecy of Jeremiah? The Law will be "Written unto their hearts" and have no need of being instructed. The GENTILES are the ones who are "invited", the original Church was ONLY Jews. Cornelius was the first gentile convert. Before him, there was nothing BUT Jews in the church. It's a Jewish sect. The "Church" means "The out-called", or the "Chosen ones". The "Church" is obviously not just anyone who claims to believe in Jesus, or there wouldn't be such a fuss about all the heretics and those who preach false doctrine. What do you mean Jesus conquered the Romans with love exactly? Christianity was made the State religion of the Byzantine Empire by forceful decree.

 

[fallingblood]

I was speaking with my friends Rabbi lately and he is obviously still waiting for the Messiah, and I understand Jews have pointed the finger at Christians for "selectively" reading prophecies, however I'd really like to hear from anyone learnt on this subject what their conclusions.

For me, I break the idea of Messiah into two different ideas. There is the Jewish Messiah, in which the OT, and other Jewish writings mention.

Then, later on, I would say that an idea of a Christian Messiah also appeared. I would put Jesus as a Christian Messiah (not that he was Christian, but that he was a Messiah to the Christians, or those who would become Christians).

As for Jesus fulfilling the Messianic prophecies. No. Once he died, that basically ruled him out as the Messiah. The Jews (those who were looking for a Messiah) were looking for one that would free them from the rule of the Romans. Jesus was killed by the Romans, and eventually, the Jews had their temple destroyed, and were even worse off.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That would be pertinent to Jesus, if he had actually fulfilled OT messianic prophecies.

What part of the Hebrew OT prophecies did Jesus Not fulfill ?___________

Jesus is the head of the Christian congregation.
[Eph 5v23; 1st Cor 11v3]

Connected to Jesus are both 'minor' and 'major' fulfillments of Scripture.

Jesus was clear at Luke [19 vs11-15] that the kingdom of God would not instantly or immediately appear back then.
First, the good news of God's kingdom would have to be proclaimed on a global or world-wide scale before Jesus, as the messianic king of God's kingdom, would usher in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.

[Matthew 24v14]

 

[SCHIZO]

"Spiritual Israel" means the True Israel. Are you familiar with the prophecy of Jeremiah? The Law will be "Written unto their hearts" and have no need of being instructed. The GENTILES are the ones who are "invited", the original Church was ONLY Jews. Cornelius was the first gentile convert. Before him, there was nothing BUT Jews in the church. It's a Jewish sect. The "Church" means "The out-called", or the "Chosen ones". The "Church" is obviously not just anyone who claims to believe in Jesus, or there wouldn't be such a fuss about all the heretics and those who preach false doctrine. What do you mean Jesus conquered the Romans with love exactly? Christianity was made the State religion of the Byzantine Empire by forceful decree.

The gentiles inherited the vineyard. Jesus prophesies throughout the gospel that Israel shall be destroyed and its inheritence shall be given to the gentiles. The gentiles are not invited, they are chosen by God to spread the gospel and his church over the face of the earth. And that is what happened throughout time until now.

 

[ForeverFaithful]

For me, I break the idea of Messiah into two different ideas. There is the Jewish Messiah, in which the OT, and other Jewish writings mention.

Then, later on, I would say that an idea of a Christian Messiah also appeared. I would put Jesus as a Christian Messiah (not that he was Christian, but that he was a Messiah to the Christians, or those who would become Christians).

As for Jesus fulfilling the Messianic prophecies. No. Once he died, that basically ruled him out as the Messiah. The Jews (those who were looking for a Messiah) were looking for one that would free them from the rule of the Romans. Jesus was killed by the Romans, and eventually, the Jews had their temple destroyed, and were even worse off.

This conquering the Roman seems like an overliteral narrow minded reading of scripture, Christ did conquer the Romans not through forces, but Peace Love and Meekness, Christ won at the resurrection,
What Prophecy did Jesus not fulfill?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

What part of the Hebrew OT prophecies did Jesus Not fulfill ?___________

Jesus is the head of the Christian congregation.
[Eph 5v23; 1st Cor 11v3]

Connected to Jesus are both 'minor' and 'major' fulfillments of Scripture.

Jesus was clear at Luke [19 vs11-15] that the kingdom of God would not instantly or immediately appear back then.
First, the good news of God's kingdom would have to be proclaimed on a global or world-wide scale before Jesus, as the messianic king of God's kingdom, would usher in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.

[Matthew 24v14]

Jesus did not:
1. bring peace to the world (Isa. 2:4, 11:6, Micah 4:3)
2. gather all Jews back to Israel (Isa. 43:5-6, 27:12-13, 11:12)
3. rebuild the Temple (Ezek. 37:26-28, Micah 4:1)
4. unite humans in the worship of the Jewish God and Torah observance (Zech. 14:9, Isa. 11:9, 40:5, Zeph. 3:9)

Furthermore, NT writers forced prophetic interpretations on verses that were not prophetic, or simply mistranslated certain parts of the OT, either out of ignorance, or again, trying to force prophetic interpretation to fit Jesus.

1. Isaiah 7:14-does not use the Hebrew word for virgin, 'b'tullah', but young woman, 'ha'alma'. Also, this verse was not a messianic prophecy, but was speaking of one of Isaiah's own sons.
2. Jewish descent comes from the fathers side, so Jesus could not have been considered a descendant of King David. (Gen. 49:10, Isa. 11:1, Jer. 23:5, Eze. 34:23-24, Num. 1:18, Ezra 2:59)
3. The 'suffering servant' of Isaiah 53 refers not to Jesus, but to the Jewish people.
4. The messiah was not to be "son of God", or God incarnate. The OT is clear that God is not man, and does not take human form.
5. One of the ancestors of Jesus is Jeconiah (Matt. 1:11), who was cursed, and none of his offspring could ever be king. (Jer. 22:30, 36:30)
6. The coming of Elijah-this is found in Malachi 4:5-6. Jesus said John the Baptist fulfilled this, yet John denied it. Furthermore, the passage in Malachi states that it would be Elijah himself, not someone in 'the spirit of Elijah'.

Christians counter the failed prophecies by exclaiming that Jesus will fulfill them at his second coming. However, there is never a 'second coming' mentioned at all in the OT. These are not spurious, or subtle. These are major concepts that are clear in the Bible, and are major reasons why Jews reject Jesus as the messiah.

 

[fallingblood]

This conquering the Roman seems like an overliteral narrow minded reading of scripture, Christ did conquer the Romans not through forces, but Peace Love and Meekness, Christ won at the resurrection,
What Prophecy did Jesus not fulfill?

It seems to me that I was mistaken about your request. From what I can tell, you weren't looking for an answer. You have already made up your mind, and that's fine. It would just be nice if your were upfront about it.

 

[ForeverFaithful]

It seems to me that I was mistaken about your request. From what I can tell, you weren't looking for an answer. You have already made up your mind, and that's fine. It would just be nice if your were upfront about it.

I must apologize, but you came off sharp there,

However I've made no secret of my Christian faith, so anyone can conclude that I do believe Christ to be the Messiah.

But just as I've read Marx's works, I enjoy hearing the other side of the coin, I mean no offence, but merely would like to analysis other people opinions and see if they do convince me

 

[URAVIP2ME]

dyanaprajna-

1] Peace is coming after Matthew 24v14 completed. See also Acts 1v8

2] Fleshly Israel becomes a spiritual nation [Christian] 1st Peter 1v9

3] Spiritual temple

4] Those of John [13vs34,35] are united in worship

1] Isaiah has minor and major fulfillment
2] Father's side was the legal descent . Mother's side was fleshly descendant side.
3] Again minor and major fulfillment. [Who had his beard pulled at Isaiah 50v6?]
4] Son does not mean the Son is Father. [Rev 2v18; 3v12] Jesus is still Son of God
5] Jeconiah while in Babylon fathered seven sons [1st Chron. 3vs16-18]
However, none of his descendants however ever ruled from Jerusalem.
That left him 'childless' meaning no offspring would succeed him as king.
6] Malachi [4vs5,6] is in connection to Isaiah 40v3; Mark 9 vs11-13; Matt 11v14
The transfiguration vision is a vision [Matt 17v9]
John 'prepared the way for Christ' as Elijah did for Elisha.

Genesis [3v15; 22vs17,18] is in connection to God's promise to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed, and all nations of the earth will be blessed through Abraham's 'seed'.
Christians believe that Jesus is that 'seed' of Abraham who will fulfill God's promise to Abraham in bringing lasting blessings to earth such as in fulfilling the words of Isaiah
[9 vs6,7; 11 vs3-9]

 

[Shermana]

The gentiles inherited the vineyard. Jesus prophesies throughout the gospel that Israel shall be destroyed and its inheritence shall be given to the gentiles. The gentiles are not invited, they are chosen by God to spread the gospel and his church over the face of the earth. And that is what happened throughout time until now.

Throughout time? You're saying the gentiles kept the original message all over the earth? So which group of gentiles spread the gospel and were the correct church exactly, in consideration of all the talk about heretical groups?

You're aware that Peter and Paul were both Jews, James was a Jew, Cornelius was the first convert, and he was chosen because he was "righteous", why do you suppose he was counted as righteous? You're aware of the metaphorical meaning of Peter's vision of the unclean animals right?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

dyanaprajna-

1] Peace is coming after Matthew 24v14 completed. See also Acts 1v8

2] Fleshly Israel becomes a spiritual nation [Christian] 1st Peter 1v9

3] Spiritual temple

4] Those of John [13vs34,35] are united in worship

1] Isaiah has minor and major fulfillment
2] Father's side was the legal descent . Mother's side was fleshly descendant side.
3] Again minor and major fulfillment. [Who had his beard pulled at Isaiah 50v6?]
4] Son does not mean the Son is Father. [Rev 2v18; 3v12] Jesus is still Son of God
5] Jeconiah while in Babylon fathered seven sons [1st Chron. 3vs16-18]
However, none of his descendants however ever ruled from Jerusalem.
That left him 'childless' meaning no offspring would succeed him as king.
6] Malachi [4vs5,6] is in connection to Isaiah 40v3; Mark 9 vs11-13; Matt 11v14
The transfiguration vision is a vision [Matt 17v9]
John 'prepared the way for Christ' as Elijah did for Elisha.

Genesis [3v15; 22vs17,18] is in connection to God's promise to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed, and all nations of the earth will be blessed through Abraham's 'seed'.
Christians believe that Jesus is that 'seed' of Abraham who will fulfill God's promise to Abraham in bringing lasting blessings to earth such as in fulfilling the words of Isaiah
[9 vs6,7; 11 vs3-9]

There's no evidence for any of these claims in the OT. The Jews don't buy any of those answers because there's no evidence for them in the OT or in Jewish teaching. There's nothing in the OT, for instance, about the temple being the body of the messiah. It was a literal temple. There's no evidence of any such idea as major and minor fulfillments of prophecy. There's no evidence that a 'spiritual' Israel was meant, and not the literal Jews. This is nothing more than speculation based on dogma.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

dyanaprajna-

Then, who is the promised 'seed' of Abraham who will fulfill God's promise of Genesis 22 vs17,18 ?