Was Jesus Sinless?

[Faithofchristian]

Do you think that the bare letter of the law - if universally applied without nuance - accommodates the unique situation of people who are dispossessed and itinerant; such that they have no kitchens, storehouses or ladder to pre-pepare vitals for the sabbath day?

Do you think it is morally right to let such people, who have been travelling on foot potentially for months and are already malnourished, become ill from hunger when they have no recourse to any foodstuffs stored in houses and are compelled, by biological necessity, to acquire it by physically reaping corn?

It was for inequitable situations like this, that English Common Law developed the concept (derived from the Christian natural law tradition) of claimants being able to receive redress under equity (the "conscience of the king or court") if the law failed them, as the judgement in the Earl of Oxford's Case (1615) explained: "The Lord Chancellor held: "The Cause why there is [Equity] is, for that Mens Actions are so divers[e] and infinite, that it is impossible to make any general Law which may aptly meet with every particular Act, and not fail in some Circumstances."

Jesus, in this example, made an appeal to conscience and equity on behalf of the extenuating circumstance of his disciples' itinerant way of life.

The same Torah solemnly tells us: “You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.” [Lev. 19:15.]

How can it be just, impartial and fair to let homeless people suffer grievous want when they have no means available to them of adhering to the commandment in the same way as householders?

You said
(Do you think it is morally right to let such people, who have been travelling on foot potentially for months and are already malnourished, become ill from hunger when they have no recourse to any foodstuffs stored in houses and are compelled, by biological necessity, to acquire it by physically reaping corn? )

First of all, the people of Israel wondering for months, were not malnourished nor was hunger.Not even the sandles on their feet wear out nor did their clothes wear out
God rained down bread forty years and given quails to eat.
It's all there in the book of Exodus
Chapter 16

 

[Fool]

If you read the Apocrypha you will find Jesus to be like Damian from the Omen.

love can be terrifying at times. i've heard he was a huge jokester, hell raiser.

rumor was he did a number down there for 3 1/2 days. love seems to be inflammatory at times.

 

[Vouthon]

Could those wandering people not have stopped at almshouses or other places? Is it impossible that they could have gone into a village and asked help?

I would presume that this was not available to them in the given circumstance. But this is hypothetical, the fact is it that his disciples were hungry, itinerant people without homes and he judged that they had no other means of receiving bodily sustenance but to pluck the corn.

In the synoptic gospels, Jesus' religious enemies construed the fourth commandment to prohibit the healing of a sick man. That's the kind of misapplication of the law that he was combating.

The basic rub is that Jesus put human welfare above rigid observations of halakhic law. He regarded the human need of the moment to be superior in degree to a rigid observance of the Torah commandment, applied generally without regard to equity in extenuating circumstances where human welfare was at stake.

 

[Fool]

His parents were worried about him. They thought he was nuts.

being eccentric is often an attribute for a prophet. isaiah wen around naked for 3 yrs. you reckon people would consider him normal?

But we can never know.

evidently prophets and missionaries were nomads of sorts.

 

[Rival]

being eccentric is often an attribute for a prophet. isaiah wen around naked for 3 yrs. you reckon people would consider him normal?

Yes, but this is not really a good argument. There are eccentric non-prophets too, which makes up the majority of eccentric people.

 

[Thief]

Can a mortal be without sin?

Why did Jesus pray to the Father; if he was sinless?

Matthew 6:9-13

"This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

His disciples followed Him for three years......and waited for the last opportunity to ask that one important item
......teach us to pray

the Lord's Prayer is actually an instruction
last possible memo in His ministry

He was not making a confession

 

[Fool]

Yes, but this is not really a good argument. There are eccentric non-prophets too, which makes up the majority of eccentric people.

uh huh but obviously the prophets generally didn't follow the norm. in fact, they were often at odds with the general populous.

 

[Fool]

His disciples followed Him for three years......and waited for the last opportunity to ask that one important item
......teach us to pray

the Lord's Prayer is actually an instruction
last possible memo in His ministry

He was not making a confession

then why say "our" and not "y-our"?

 

[metis]

I don't believe anyone is sinless, but then I don't know everyone.

I think the early church eventually came to believe he was, but it's less clear that they originally thought as such. It is hypothetically possible that this might have become a theological construct, possibly first put forth by Paul, to fit into a "final sacrifice" paradigm of Jesus being "unblemished", such as what the goats and sheep needed to be before being sacrificed.

It is quite natural that when a hero is martyred that the followers elevate such a person to near-deity or deity levels, such as what we saw happen when Gandhi was martyred, with many of his followers coming to believe he was a manifestation of God. However, Gandhi had written on many occasions that he was not as such.

 

[Thief]

then why say "our" and not "y-our"?

the Prayer begins......Our Father

you would be reciting the words as if they belong to you

Our Father.....

your Father?
my Father?
brothers are we?.......sons of God
are we?

and heaven hears you when you say it
so too the devil

 

[Thief]

has anyone considered.....baptism
for the remission of sin

John said to Him......it should be You doing so unto me
and He replied....Do this unto Me
Let it be so

so....having been baptized by the hand of John
for the remission of sin
He would not be a sinner during His ministry

prior to this, He disappeared for a lengthy spell
not recorded

think maybe?.....He had to perform a point of commitment?
renounce His prior living?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is quite natural that when a hero is martyred that the followers elevate such a person to near-deity or deity levels, s

....as so says my art history books, the role of the Greeks, the Romans, dont know if they deified "celeberties" after that. Before, yeaaars, before ephesians etc people used to treat their dead kings and queens as living rotalty. Theyd have offerings, celebrations, have burial rituals, burry the rich ones in nice phyramids, or however spelled.

Gosh. I cant remember when we stoped worshiping dead (but thats an ongoing tradition. I just finished visiting my aunts grave yesterday....guess it will have to live on)

 

[Kenny]

You have absolutely no way of knowing this.

I think I can. He fulfilled the law which included honoring your father and your mother.

Certainly I have a greater possibility of certianty than what you offered.

Also,

Matthew 12:1-2

At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day
.

Nothing wrong there, as you would know if you kept reading. What he violated was the Talmud, a compendium of attempting to interpret what God meant. Jesus corrected their understanding when he said:

3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?
4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.
5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?
6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’you would not have condemned the innocent.
8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

he also said stating about the human rules they had created in Matt 15:
2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’
5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’
6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’”

 

[Fool]

the Prayer begins......Our Father

you would be reciting the words as if they belong to you

Our Father.....

your Father?
my Father?
brothers are we?.......sons of God
are we?

and heaven hears you when you say it
so too the devil

so you believe that jesus was all knowing? that he couldn't commit a sin from ignorance?

 

[Thief]

so you believe that jesus was all knowing? that he couldn't commit a sin from ignorance?

I don't see how this question arose for cause of my previous post...

but anyway....
I don't believe anyone is all knowing
including Him

and I bring that from my perspective about God
God moves through time with us
God doesn't look ahead

it would spoil the story

not that tomorrow is a puzzle
we humans are predictable

the surprise is found in the change of mind and heart

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Why did Jesus pray to the Father; if he was sinless?

He wasn't. I know that technically here he is teaching how to pray, but yes, he sinned quite a bit, even breaking the Big Ten at certain points.

Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.

And yet the bible also mentions righteous people. That's what happens when authors don't read the previous works before putting something down on paper.

He was honoring his parents as the first born followed his father in working as a carpenter, growing in wisdom and favor until the appointed time

What verse says he was a carpenter? Where is he ever shown "carpenting"?

But this is hypothetical, the fact is it that his disciples were hungry, itinerant people without homes and he judged that they had no other means of receiving bodily sustenance but to pluck the corn.

And who told them to leave their homes and follow him without care for tomorrow? Who is the reason they are hungry in the first place?

And if you can snap your fingers and make magic food like fish and bread or wine, why bother stealing or gleaning anyway?

then why say "our" and not "y-our"

Because when YOU say it, it would be "our". We are to repeat this prayer, not substitute pronouns.

I think I can. He fulfilled the law which included honoring your father and your mother.

He ran off without telling them and never even called his mother "mom" or whatever. Joseph disappears from the story shortly after the running away incident. I wonder if he actually just went ahead and divorced Mary like he said he would. It's clear the sons were taking care of her ... except Jesus, who went bumming around the region like he was on a pokemon journey collecting people. He has really nothing good to say about families and promotes destroying them. He clearly has issues regarding families in general and parenting in particular, being one of the few who didn't turn away kids from listening to him (at least as written).

 

[Fool]

He ran off without telling them and never even called his mother "mom" or whatever. Joseph disappears from the story shortly after the running away incident. I wonder if he actually just went ahead and divorced Mary like he said he would. It's clear the sons were taking care of her ... except Jesus, who went bumming around the region like he was on a pokemon journey collecting people. He has really nothing good to say about families and promotes destroying them. He clearly has issues regarding families in general and parenting in particular, being one of the few who didn't turn away kids from listening to him (at least as written).

he promoted communalism as a whole. that supercedes units based on family ties of blood vs action, a tree is known by it's fruit.

he did state that those who did the will of love were his family.

 

[syo]

Jesus was sinless. his task was to carry all the sins of the world, and die, and then defeat death, thus liberating people from sin.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Can a mortal be without sin?

Why did Jesus pray to the Father; if he was sinless?

Matthew 6:9-13

"This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

The only one that the Bible says was perfect is Job.

 

[Trackdayguy]

Can a mortal be without sin?

Why did Jesus pray to the Father; if he was sinless?

Matthew 6:9-13

"This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

Would you say that having an aggressive attitude towards another struggling person was a sin?