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Was Jesus sent to be crucified?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by croak, Dec 7, 2004.

  1. croak

    croak Trickster

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    There is evidence from the Bible itself. If anything is untrue, I'll debate it. Hopefully.

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]One of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity is that Jesus had died and allowed for the shedding of his blood for the sake of granting forgiveness to people. In other words Jesus had died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. Let us investigate this topic from the Bible, and find out whether Jesus was sent to be crucified or that he was crucified: [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1. Willingness of Jesus Christ to Die for Our Sins: [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Peter and the two sons of Zebedee were with Jesus Christ before the elders of the people and the chief priests came to take him to crucify him. Jesus at this point talked to Peter and the two sons of Zebedee as in Matthew 26:38 " Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me". Then Jesus went a little further way from them and prayed to God as in Matthew 26:39 " And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt". [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It is very clear from the above verse in Matthew 26:39 that Jesus had no intention of dying. In this verse it is shown that Jesus was praying strongly (Matthew mentions that Jesus repeated these prayer three time) to have this death removed from him. Had Jesus Christ been sent to be crucified he would not have hesitated to be killed at all. When I relate this to my Christian brothers, they tell me that this hesitation comes from the flesh side of him (in other words he was tempted), and that his soul which is godly does not have this hesitation at all. When we look at Matthew 26:38 we see that Jesus is contradicting this idea by saying, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death" (Matthew 26:38). He himself says that it really his soul that is hesitating and not his body. These are Jesus' own words.[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2. God Answered the prayers of Jesus Christ: [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]After Jesus made the above mentioned prayer he was answered by God according to Hebrews 5:7 " Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared". These words clearly show that when Jesus was praying strongly to God, God would grant him his request. The word " heard in that he feared" (Hebrews 5:7) mean that God granted him what he requested. So the above verse shows that when Jesus asked of God to " let this cup pass from" (Matthew 26:39) him, God respond to his prayer and saved him from death or crucifixion.[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3. The Post Crucifixion Prophesied Events never happened: [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When the people were asking Jesus Christ if he was going to show them a sign, He replied by saying that the only sign that they should expect is the sign of Jonas. Jesus also made sure to specify what exactly this sign was. The details are shown in the following verses:[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
    - Matthew 12:38 " Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee".
    [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]- Matthew 12:39 " But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas".[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]- Matthew 12:40 " For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth". [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus here emphasized what will happen to him by specifically saying that he will be like Jonas in terms of the number of days and nights he will be in the heart of the earth, " For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40). Now let us see if this prophecy came to pass. [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus was crucified on Friday, this is certainly known among all Christians, and that is the reason for calling that Friday by "Good Friday". Jesus was buried on Friday night. Now let us start counting: [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
    1. Friday night Jesus was buried. This is night number 1.
    2. Saturday day Jesus was still in the grave. This is day number 1.
    3. Saturday night Jesus was still in the grave. This is night number 2.
    [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
    Mary Magdalene, very early in the morning before sun rise and after the Sabbath (Saturday), went to the see Jesus, and he was not there. The following verses relate this event:
    [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
    * Mark 16:1 " And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him".
    [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]* Mark 16:2 " And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun".[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]* Mark 16:3 " And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?"[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]* Mark 16:4 " And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great".[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]* Mark 16:5 " And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted".[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]* Mark 16:6 " And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him". [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The number of days and nights that Jesus had spent in the heart of the earth is 1 day and 2 nights. This clearly challenges what Jesus had prophesied. When I tell this to my Christian brothers, some of them responded by saying that what Jesus wanted to really say was that he will be gone for a while, and not that he will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. This is clearly not the case. Had Jesus meant that, he would have said it, but it is clear that he wanted the people to know that this was a sign (miracle) and that it will be like Joans' sign, and that he will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. These were his own words. [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why Would Jesus Have to Die on the Cross?[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
    According to the Christian doctrine, Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. The idea here is that every human is born with sins, or that all humans will sin, and therefore it was necessary that someone as pure as Jesus would be the crucified to nullify these sins. The question is; why does anyone have to die for our sins when God, the All-Merciful, could as easily give us forgiveness if we ask for it? Isn't God the one who makes the rules? Why does He have to make someone suffer for our sins or for someone else's sins? Isn't that unjust of Him? According to the Bible the way to redemption could be obtained without the need for sacrifice. The Bible says:
    * Ezekiel 18:20 " The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him".
    [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]* Ezekiel 18:21 " But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die". [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Clearly the soul that sins shall die. Clearly that no one shall bear the iniquity (sins) of others. So Jesus cannot bear the sins of others either. If one is righteous then it shall be upon him, and if one commits a sin then it shall be upon him, and not on Jesus. Finally, the way to repentance and forgiveness is by turning from all sins, doing what is right, and keeping the commandments. [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Also we see the same message given by Solomon. He says in the book of Ecclesiastes 12:13 " Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man". This is the whole message, and this is the conclusion of messages. It is that one should fear God, and keep the commandments, and nothing else. [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Again in 2 Chronicles 7:14 " If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land". This clearly states that to seek forgiveness from God we have to humble ourselves, pray and seek God, and turn away from wickedness. [/font]
     
  2. croak

    croak Trickster

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    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Finally the Bible says in Samuel 15:22 " And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams". This clearly states that obeying God is better that sacrifice whether this sacrifice is of objects, animals, or humans, or any other type. What God likes is for us to heed and obey Him, and if that is what God likes then it is not of Him to come later and change his mind, and change his ways. God says in the Holy Quran,“ Verily God is All-Knowing, All-Wise” (Ch 9: Vr 28). [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now that we have seen this, Christians say that Jesus has changed some of these laws. Let's look at what Jesus says. In Matthew 5:17 " Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil". Jesus clearly states that he was not sent to abolish the law, the law of which had already existed. So what is mentioned above cannot be discounted. Then Jesus continues to say, in Matthew 5:18 and 19 " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven". Jesus here states that not even as much as a dot (tittle) shall not pass from the law. Every thing is kept the way it was. That is why the previous laws cannot be removed or discarded, and those who willfully change these laws " he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven". [/font]
     
  3. croak

    croak Trickster

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    Well, have to go sleep. Hopefully will debate tomorrow. Good night!

    The time now is 09:47 PM.
     
  4. precept

    precept Member

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    1 Peter 1:18-21...."Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversations received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot; who verily WAS FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, BUT was manifest in these last times for you.

    It is obvious from the above that Jesus came to this world fully prepared to die. The decision to die for humanity was made even before humanity was created. This fact more than any other speaks to the fact that for sin to be eradicated for ever; Jesus had to die. His death meant the eradication of sin and the eradication of the cause of sin-Satan. It also stands to reason that if Jesus did not die for the sins of humanity; Satan would have rulership and the full control of sin in perpetuity in God's creation, with no chance of God ever again being in full control. Satan, in other words would rule jointly with God.

    Jesus knew he had to die; but though knowing, this did not take away the pain, when He knew that if His Father so desired, His Father could justly eliminate Satan, eradicate sin, and be in full control of His universe without having to witness His Son's death.

    Jesus also knew that the vast majority of humanity for whom He volunteered to die; had no interest in this drama - the fight for salvation from sin. His request to "let the cup pass from him"; if met by His Father, would only have meant the damnation of all humanity; but He knew that his Father could make new humans but this time without sin and Satan. The big problem, however, was the faithful servants of God who depended on Jesus for their salvation. Servants such as Abraham, Enoch, Samuel, Job, king David; and many many more of God's servants would not now have been saved. And because Jesus wanted to save; even just "one" of humanity who voluntarily loved and served Him; He decided that "yes" He had to die, if only to save that "one" human from among the lost of humanity.


    precept
     
  5. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    RearingArab,

    I will endeavor to show from the Scripture that Christ died, and that His teaching is one of suffering and self-denial. What kind of a man would teach this, and then, not follow through with it? I'll use the Gospel of Matthew to teach this and show forth His death. From this, you will clearly see that the Scripture (and I can do more books to show this) clearly teaches that Christ died, and that He taught dying to one's own self. All quotes are from the Gospel of Matthew, unless I say otherwise.

    I need two posts. My apologies for the length ahead of time. That's inevitable with this topic and the proofs you requested. My first post demonstrates Christ's moral teachings. He demanded a lot out of people, and what He demanded dictates what He must do. Next, I will speak directly to Christ prophesying His own death and that scene in Gethsemene you asked about. Again, forgive the length.

    Skipping to Jesus' adult life, He was one day teaching on the Mount of Olives near Jerusalem. He said, "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake" (5.11). When evil and suffering come to a person on account of their faith in Him, it is a blessing. If they drag them into the street, beat them, and kill them, it is a blessing. This is Christ's teaching. It is his standard.

    In the self-same sermon, He says "You have heard it said, `An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away" (5.38-42). Here Christ changes the old Law, which laid a limit of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" upon vengeance. Christ does not abolish this limitation; He makes it stricter. Now, you take no vengeance at all. If they rob you, you give them more than what they want. If they beat you, you accept it and submit to more. Likewise, Christ intensified the Laws against adultery and murder so that even lust or hatred constitutes as adultery or murder respectively.

    In fact, He goes so far as to teach "You have heard that it was said, `You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven" (Mt. 5.43-45a). According to Christ here, we cannot hate our enemies. We must love them, and pray for them. Now even our enemies are to be treated as our friends. After all, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect" (5.46-48).

    He made many other commands, equally difficult. For this reason, He said "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, an dthere are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it" (7.13-14). For this reason He said "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven," so that even those who do miracles in His name and prophesy will be told "I never knew you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness" (7.21,23b).

    He made harsh commands. He told his disciples "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead," (7.22) signifying by "dead" those who have not come into the new life He brought, and that they should bury those of their own who passed away. Specifically here, he referred to a disciple's father. However, He had the power to forgive sins and heal the crippled (9.1-8). So strict is He, and with such authority from God, that He could say, "whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father who is in heaven."

    Such do these things combine, that when the disciples of the prophet Saint John the Forerunner asked him if He was the Messiah, He responded, "Go and tell John the things which you hear and see. The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (11.4-6). Such a mission of mercy and salvation was Christ on that He taught that "whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward."

    For this reason, at the Last Judgement, He will separate men as sheep and goats. To the sheep He will say, "Come you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me." They, of course, will wonder where they saw Him so destitute, and He will say "Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me." The goats, however did not practice mercy, and they will be damned as a result (25.31-46).

    It is little wonder that a man such as Christ, who demands such obedience, did such deeds, made such claims, and taught such a hard way will cause people to oppose Him. For this reason He said "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be those of his own household. He that loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me, and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it" (10.34-39). The absolute obedience required by Christ naturally offends people. This division brings the sword down on His followers, not His followers bringing the sword. For, if you try to save your life, you will lose it. You must accept self-denial, and if it comes, even death for His sake. That is the teaching of Christ.

    This brings us to Christ's warning: "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all for My name's sake" (10.16-22). This is the future Christ promised His followers: a future where they could only win by losing.

    This brings us to Christ's death. What sort of man commands this of His followers but does not follow through? That man is an evil man. If a man tell someone to die, to accept suffering, beatings, humiliation, and even to die, all with joy, then I had best be willing to do so myself. If he does not do it, he is the worst kind of hypocrite. He is a hypocrite whose hypocrasy is compounded with murder.

    I must continue in a second post Christ's teachings about His own death, that He foresaw it and accepted it. I apologize that this is long, but I feel I should be thorough to put it into its context.
     
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    No doubt such extensive plagiarism was exhausting. I, on the other hand, find it objectionable.
     
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  7. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Now, Part II -- Jesus' statements concerning His death

    I outlined in my previous post that Jesus' teaching is exacting and demanding. It is so demanding, that if He did not submit Himself to the same demands, Christ would have been a liar and hypocrite of the worst sort. Far from being godly, he would be a devil.

    Now, one day Jesus pulled His disciples aside and asked them who people said He was. He ended it with an incomparable statement about Himself and a blessing upon Peter and the disciples on account of Peter's confession.

    "He asked His disciples, saying `Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?' So they said, `Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.' He said to them, `But who do you say that I am?' Simon Peter answered and said `You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' Jesus answered and said to him, `Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, an dthe gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" (16.13-20).

    However, only a short while later, Christ called Peter Satan himself. Why? Because Peter denied that Christ would die. The Scripture says:

    "From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief prists and scribes, and be killed, and be raised on the third day. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, `Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!' But He turned and said to Peter, `Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of man" (16.21-23).

    Peter desired to stop Jesus from dying there. There was a Jewish belief at the time that the Messiah would ride in conquest, drive out the Romans, and establish a kingdom that way. Jesus, on the other hand, came to die, and by His death establish the kingdom. Little wonder He called Him "Satan" when Peter repeated the temptation Satan presented to Christ in the desert.

    He called it being "mindful of the things of men," because this is one of the human ways of establishing the Kingdom of God, not God's way. Many false prophets and false christs have come trying to do that very thing that Peter had in mind. In the second century, one Jew named Simon Bar-Kochba rebelled against the Romans and presented himself as a prophet and God's annointed. He died and Jerusalem was leveled. Here in America a man named Koresh claimed similar things. His compound was set ablaze, and he died.

    Since that way leads to destruction, Christ taught that "if anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to His works" (16.24-27). So, Jesus teaches that He must die, Peter denies it, Jesus calls him "Satan," and then, proceeds to teach that this is the way to life. It is the way He follows.

    In another portion of the Gospel, it says "Now while they were stayin gin Galilee, Jesus said to them, `The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up'" (17.22-23). Here Jesus prophesies, and His prophesy came true in its fullness. Jesus was betrayed by Judas, handed to the Jews, who delivered Him to the Romans, who killed Him. Next, He was buried, but the grave could not contain Him. He broke death, and led those that sin and death held as prisonors free.

    In another place, He is going to Jerusalem, and Matthew records "Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, `Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again'" (20.17-18).

    Next, Jesus tells His disciples, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave--just as the Son of man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many'" (20.25-28). Here, Jesus links the morality He teaches explicitly with His life. His life, thus, is an example. He is, however, more. He calls His life a "ransom." If He is giving His life as a ransom, then He is dying, but in doing so, what a great ransom it was. In dying, He descended into the realm of the dead. There, death took him for three days, but after that, He shattered its bonds. In such a way, His heroic act was to give hope to humanity, as we were enslaved by sin, death, and Satan.

    Next, He prophesied in a parable about what would happen to Him:

    "Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, `They will respect my son.' But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, `This is the heir. Come let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?" His disciples answered wisely: "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render him the fruits in their seasons." (21.33-41).

    Thus was Jesus treated. Just as the prophets had been slain, so too was Jesus killed by a cooperation between His people's leaders and the Romans. However, St. Matthew quotes an ancient prophecy from the book of Isaiah about this in the following verse: "The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes."

    Still later in 26.1-5, Jesus prophecies His death and the Pharisees consipre: "Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, that He said to His disciples, `You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.' Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him. But they said, `Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people.'"

    Now, following this, a woman took a whole jar of perfume and annointed Jesus' feet. His disciples, specifically Judas, protested this, that it could be used to feed the poor. Jesus responded saying, "Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a good work for Me. For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial. Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel i spreached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her" (26.10b-13). Again, a clear reference to Jesus' death and burial. This time, though, He is being ceremonially prepared for His burial.


    OK, so I'm breaking my word. I have one last section. It deals with some of you passages you objected with and how to interpret them. I apologize again for the length. However, what you will have is about as thorough a Christian defense that the Christian Scriptures teach Jesus was crucified as you'll be able to find :).
     
  8. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Finally, Jesus institutes the Eucharist with His disciples. The account goes as follows:

    "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke
    it, and gave it to the disciples and said, `Take, eat, this is My Body.' Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, `Drink from it, all of you. For this is My Blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this
    fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Fathers Kingdom'" (26.26-28).

    This is the central part of Christian worship. Christ, in the Gospel of John, said that "he who does not eat My Body and drink My blood has no life in him." I must digress a bit to explain the importance of this, and I apologize.

    After the events in Eden with Adam, mankind was rendered imperfect. We were flawed and sinful, and from these we were separated from God. God, however, is the sole source of life. In so doing, our race died the day Adam ate the fruit.

    This problem was further complicated by the fact that it was genetic. Every child is made in the mold of their father and their mother. The image is stamped, and the assembly-line of humanity continues. However, if the first mold is broken, then all the subsequent images made from it are broken. If we no longer had the image of God in us whole, then we could never become like God.

    Our position was hopeless, and it looked as if the Devil had won. There is no way that something as flawed as we had become could repair itself and exalt itself. In that case, our race dies utterly. On the other hand, if we perish, then the crown and redemptive power of God's creation goes with it, for long before us, Satan had sinned. This was unacceptable, for it would render all God's efforts useless.

    The solution was to bring God down to us. In order to solve
    the problem, God took a young virgin, and He caused her to conceive. He then united Himself to the child, and in that way God became man. As God assuming humanity, Jesus had a restored image. He was a perfect man once more, but He had to complete His task and free us utterly. So, He died, just as we die, and died an ignoble and cursed death. In this way, He reached down to the very dregs of our corruption, and exposed it to God.

    Now, we don't heal automatically, so Jesus instituted the Church, baptism, and several other things. Here is where the Eucharist comes in. The Eucharist is Christ's Body and Blood. It mysteriously participates in Christ's incarnation as a man. When we eat and drink, we participate in the incarnation through it. Without this meal, there is no Christian salvation. Therefore, this passage is the ultimate prophecy of Christ's death, and to this day, it is the ultimate way to participate in it and receive God's grace.

    Following the institution of the Eucharist, Judas leaves the Lord's table, and Jesus goes to Gethsemene. There, in anticipation, Jesus prays. You had questions on this passage, so I will deal with it in greater detail.

    It says:

    "Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemene, and siad to the disciples, `Sit here while I go and pray over there.' And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, `My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.' He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, `O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.' Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, `What? Could you not watch with Me one hour? Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.' Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, `O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.' And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy. So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. Then He came to His disciples and said
    to them, `Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand'" (26.36-46).

    Note here that Jesus says that "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Your Christian friends were right. There is a conflict between His "flesh" and His "spirit." It is not a matter of His body rebelling, though. Remember what I said about man's image being imperfect and apply it here.

    Christ had come to heal our disease, sin. However, in order to do that, He had to experience the full brunt of our imperfections, or else He could not restore our image, much less enable us to attain a likeness to God.

    Now consider specifically Who Christians believe Jesus is. Jesus is God Almighty. I have no way to soften that blow. He is God Almighty, because God had to come to us. No creature could restore us to what we needed to be. God is one God, not three, but He has three persons. It's confusing, I know, but if we take seriously that God created the universe, then
    there is no way we can truly understand God. That is the Christian claim. It is Jesus' claim as well. Who else could change the Law of God, as He claimed to do? Now, when I say change, I don't mean abolish. Jesus claimed that authority every time He said "You have heard it said of old...but I say to you," because every Law He changed was part of God's Law.

    Jesus, thus, being God never had a beginning. He is uncreated and has always existed with the Father. He is beyond time, but when He became man, He subjected Himself it. He Who never slept, slept. Jesus had always been with the Father, but to heal us He took our sin-disease upon Himself.

    Now, can you think of any better way for sin to tempt Him if what I said is true? Somehow, the Son, who is completely inseparable from God, must suffer the consequences of our separation. Our sins in light of God, Who is so merciful, should make any man quake, but we have always lived like this. Jesus hadn't.

    However, where Adam succumbed, Jesus did not. When He took all our weaknesses, He overcame them. The fact that He did this, does not lesson the agony of a temptation.

    I agree, if God had to kill Jesus just to forgive us, that it would not be a pretty picture. However, if "sin" is a disease, and God must repair it, then it is different. The same word that is translated "forgive" may also be translated "remit." God is always ready to forgive, but it doesn't erase the consequences of sin. That is where Jesus comes in: only He could do that, and He could only do that as a man.

    Thus, Jesus is tempted in Gethsemane. However, note that He does not falter; He does not fail. Jesus, when Judas arrives, goes willingly. He stopped Peter from attacking the guards to rescue Him.

    "Now, after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men. And the angel answered and said to the women, `Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quicly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is goin gbefore you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold I have told you.' So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring the disciples word. And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, `Rejoice!' So they came and held him by the feet and worshipped Him. Then Jesus said to them, `Do not be afraid, Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me'" (28.1-10).

    Someone cannot rise from the dead unless he dies. If the Scripture is reliable, then you must understand all the quotes in light of this. If it has been tampered with, then simply declare it so, because the Scriptures all point to this. Jesus, who was crucified for our sins, died, was buried, and rose from the dead, and on the third day ascended
    into heaven. If you still demand it, I can address all of your Scriptures, but I think after this, it will be unnecessary.

    I also give you one admonission: stop listening to websites or the like. Go pick up a copy of the Gospels online and read them. I know that you haven't read them, or you would never have used the quotes you used, especially the Jonah one. I don't know where you got your information, but you're not going to look good if you try to reply to what I've said about Matthew without bothering to have read the Gospel. You can always tell the difference.
     
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  9. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Dear Rearing Arabian...

    The only question that needs to be answered is whether the tomb is empty or not.

    I could go to great pains to show you how erroneous your assumptions and time line are, and for what? You would find yet another straw dog to lay claim to in order to justify your disbelief.

    I would suggest that if you honestly lay all of your preconceptions aside and honestly sought God, you would find him. Would you find Jesus? You won't know unless you go and look openly and honestly for yourself.
     
  10. croak

    croak Trickster

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    I'm sorry I forgot the link. You think I write these kinds of articles? I don't go around saying I wrote this and that.

    http://www.missionislam.com/comprel/crucified.htm
    There. Clear as day. Sorry if I forget at 10:00 PM. I guess I don't have the right to forget something.

    Anyways..........

    As far as I know, there are numerous additions in the Bible. So, unless you can find more evidence of this, I will treat it as an addition.

    Why? Only Matthew had records of these sayings of Jesus (as)?

    So, it is the Will of Allah to choose who shall enter Heaven. Not the will of Jesus (sa).

    Well, I do agree you should love Allah most of all (not Jesus (as)). But wasn't he crucified after he said this? Then why would he mention the cross? However, I am completely against the first part. He doesn't want to bring peace, but a sword? So, let's summarise it: Anyone who does not follow him is killed, as it isn't a religion of peace, but of the sword. Islam is a religion of peace, though; even if someone does not become Muslim, that doesn't mean you can kill him.

    So that would mean the future, which would be considered the future by them, is a time when they can only win by losing? Actually, Christians seemingly dominate the world today, as having the most followers. Seems he (as) broke his promise.

    Isn't Hades in Greek mythology? Shouldn't it be Hell?

    Well, if Jesus (as) was Allah, then Peter probably thought "Well, Allah can't die, can He? He's All-Powerful, and He is far from dying." I think that Jesus (as) should have said "It is my Father's Command that I die for you and all of mankind." But calling him Satan? The Bible is very confusing.

    Why does it always say "take up his cross and follow me" or something similar? What does a cross have to do with Allah? It's just a thing made of wood to crucify people. Well, Muhammed (saas), didn't desire to come after him. Actually, he was frightened when he saw Jibril (Gabriel). So, this does not mean that Muhammed (saas) is not a Prophet, in case you're wondering.

    How do you know it came true in its fullness? Where's the proof?
    I don't see a third day. Do you?

    Why should "the son of God" be taken for three days? "After that, he shattered it's bonds." Does it take "the son of God" three days? If he was really powerful, he wouldn't even have to stay a moment there.

    So, I thought he was "commiting suicide" to help people. Now, he lets a woman use a whole jar of perfume instead of helping the people he came to save? Not such a nice person.

    Well, then why don't I know about a "sin gene" in the DNA? Isn't that how genetics work?

    So simply, it means Allah is not All-Powerful, that He cannot do what He wants. It's surprising that the Creator of everything cannot simply do what He wants.

    I don't think the Scripture is reliable.

    Well, Matthew didn't exactly make you look good, as far as I can see.

    Hmmm, so you want me to show you many reasons, instead of a few? That's easy.
     
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  11. croak

    croak Trickster

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    I guess that's enough.

    A side note: Well, I'm thinking Deut is probably the most sarcastic person on the board, at least to me. Well, don't people make mistakes? Right now I'm taking physiotherapy and my back is always hurting. I have exams coming up. I have problems at school. I'm not getting enough sleep. It's nearly 11 PM now. Well, I guess that's all irrevelent. And Deut, if I'm offending you in any way, I'm sorry. But I'm saying my opinion.
     
  12. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Priceless! More frubals to the theist in the rear. :biglaugh:
     
  13. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    And when you argue your opinion, you seem to do rather well.
     
  14. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    For more on what Jesus said, I can give you these sources as sources I trust: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, I Corinthians has some, the Didache, James paraphrases a lot, the Revelation, Acts, and I Clement quotes him and some Gospels that no longer exist. There are others, but that's what I remember off the top of my head. Neither the Didache nor I Clement are in the Bible.

    These books don't just collect Jesus' sayings. They place them in narratives. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are all in narrative form. I Corinthians, I Clement, and James are all letters that are written to address certain problems. James has much of the teachings of Jesus intermingled without anyquotation marks and slightly altered to fit the letter. If you're familiar with Christ's teachings, they stick out like a sore thumb. The Didache is something of a circular letter, and it doesn't exactly conform to any of these. Revelation is a complex book of prophecy when the risen Christ appeared to St. John in a vision. In Acts, Jesus ascends into heaven and later appears to the Apostle Paul with instructions.

    All the rest of the books of the New Testament deal with it, but they tend to not have absolutely direct quotations, but again, the teachings of Jesus are present in various forms. For instance, virtually all of them mention the crucifixion and resurrection.

    Yes, Jesus was crucified after that. Jesus, being Who He was, was perfectly aware of His fate. Therefore He was able to use what would happen to Him to teach His disciples.

    You have misunderstood what Jesus where He said He came to bring a sword. Jesus taught them that they would be killed by the sword. He was referring to believers. Because of Him, a father would hand over his son to be devoured by lions, and a mother would turn her daughter. He was telling them, that on account of Him, they would die. He was *not* telling them to kill people.

    Jesus prophesied many things. He told His followers to be persecuted. They were. He told them that they would eventually bring Christianity to every nation. It has. He taught that when He returned there would be little faith on earth. Christianity will lose sway before that.

    Yes, it is a Greek word. Hades basically means the abode of the dead. That is what the Hebrew word Sheol meant, so it translates that word. It is basically a shadowy existence without any hope.

    Hell is a different concept, and it works a little differently. Basically, those opposed to God will experience Him as torment when He comes, while others will experience Him as undying love. If you want a fuller explanation, go here: http://philthompson.net/pages/library/riveroffire.html.

    Yes, the Bible is confusing. It has a complex subject. God is incomprehensible, so when God deals with us, it will not be easy to comprehend much of what He says or does. Many great men have gained much insight into God, but invariably, they find that He is mysterious at His very core. We simply cannot understand Him.

    I can see why Jesus would seem to be harsh here, but this was an common belief then, and Jesus had to deal with it. It taught that the Christ would come, and he would lead the Jewish people in war. They would then conquer their neighbors, subjecting the whole world to God's rule in a religious war.

    Jesus taught against this. The truth of God cannot be rightly spread by war. So Peter was telling Christ to do something that was contrary to what He came to do. The strong rebuke was necessary, because more than one group has tried to do exactly that.

    The cross is a piece of wood, but it is also the great symbol of Christianity. Christ came as a servant, and He expects us to be a servant. The cross symbolizes what Christ did. We are to be like Christ, so it symbolizes how we are to live our lives. Even if we can't embrace martyrdom, we can love those around us, feed the hungry, care for the sick, give homes to orphans, and so on. So the phrase "take up your cross" means "live as Jesus lived."

    You aren't reckoning the days right. Jesus died and was buried on Friday. That is day 1. He remained there on Saturday. That is day 2. Then, Sunday makes the third day, and He rose on that day.

    I don't know why He made it three days. I can look and see if I have something on it, though, if you want.

    Jesus was about to go to the cross to die. It is important that a person be buried properly if they at all can. There is nothing wrong with that.

    Because there is no sin gene. We are more than DNA. Christians believe when Adam sinned, it corrupted everything. His DNA, his soul, his mind, his body, the matter that makes up his body. So, it is bigger than DNA.

    This isn't because God lacked power. It is because of God's character and His desire. He chose this route. If He just decided to do it, then He would have taken the choice from us. God isn't like that.

    God is loving and He is merciful. I'm sure both our faiths teach that. He wants people to feed widows, orphans, and the starving. However, many people starve in the world. Why is this? Is it because God cannot feed them, or is it because God has made us to work with this, and that He expects us to take responsibility for what we have done? If He wants us to take responsibility, then He leaves us to do things. That is the only way He can do that and still acheive His goal.

    Now I am at the end. It is OK if Matthew does not make us look good to you. I simply answered your question about whether Jesus was crucified. He was. You had been given very poor information. In fact, it borders on a lie. Now you know the website didn't tell the truth, so you an avoid it in the futuer.
     
  15. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    But your trust is an act of faith alone. There is no evidence to suggest that any of these works were anything other than plagiarized or fabricated second-hand accounts by folks who witnessed absolutely nothing.

    If you wish to debate rather than preach, it is critically important that you understand that many of us don't trust your sources and base that distrust on a good deal of scholarship. That you would reference gMk or gMat as prooftext is, for us, no less silly than basing your claim on the collective works of Donald Duck.

    As for the original question: "Was Jesus sent to be crucified?" The Passion Narrative is so faulty on so many levels that it is remarkable to me that anyone takes it seriously.
     
  16. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    My statement on the matter, spelling error and all:

    Yes, I am basing it on faith. Have I ever claimed otherwise?

    Everything I have said has been a valid argument for the debate at hand, which closed:

    Does the Bible teach that Jesus was sent to be crucified? The answer is a resounding yes.

    Can it be considered a historical fact that He was crucified? Yes.

    Did I say the same about the resurrection? No.

    I presented things the Christian faith as historical fact, but I also made clear that the only thing that I presented as an absolute historical fact was the crucifixion.

    I am defending and explaining Christian faith to someone who has obviously gotten his(her) information from a website that is willing to lie or go right up to the line to distort my faith.

    I am perfectly willing to debate with you on the matter.

    Every document I listed is a separate book that contains quotations from Jesus. In your post you assume that Markon priority is de facto correct. It is true that it is dominant in scholarship, but it isn't the only reasonable position.

    It would not be reasonable to assume that Matthew, Mark, and Luke were unrelated, though. They are different documents. They do contain stories and information unique to them. Given that, why *should* speak about Mk, M, L, Q, and the various other hypothesised sources of the Two-Source Hypothesis to someone who has absolutely no familiarity with the Gospels or Christianity? As it stands he(she) seemed confused enough as it is.

    Facts relavent to what I'm going to say:

    1). Matthew and Mark have sections that are verbatim identical.

    2). Luke and Mark have sections that are verbatim identical.

    3). Mark has the shortest and most difficult readings.

    4). The Early Church gave credance to Matthew and considered Mark an abbreviated form.

    5). Matthew was said to originally have been written in Aramaic or Hebrew.

    The Aramaic version was still extant in the 5th century, as Jerome gives witness to it.

    **************

    From these I assemble the following position.

    Matthew was written in Aramaic or Hebrew.

    1). Mark was a translation of Matthew into an abridged form into Greek.

    2). Matthew was later translated into Greek, using Mark as a gloss. The translator tended to use soften Mark's language in the process.

    3). Luke used Mark, and he may have had access to Matthew in addition to other sources. He too softened some of Mark's strong language.

    4). The book of John was composed independantly of the Synoptics

    **********

    You mention discrepencies in the Resurrection story. Some of these we may understand as a literary device (such as John's dating for the events in the passion). Others are irreconcilable. I won't try to. I am not an infallibist, and I asknowledge they were written about three decades after the fact. So, of course they are going to have disagreements. The event is the same basic thing in each of them, where there are irreconcilable facts. It doesn't change that I think they reflect a historical reality.

    However, if you want to try and argue that the resurrection wasn't a historical event, then we certainly do differ. I think it happened, and I think it is what happened. I do think the tomb was empty. Acts tells us how the Jewish leaders explained it: "The disciples stole the body." It is significant that that was mentioned whether you adhere to that theory or not.

    Nobody denied an empty tomb until very recently. It is only the interpretion of the empty tomb that people differed on.

    So, since you want to be technical, is that more to your liking? I can debate and defend every point there if you want.
     
  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    To the extent that one can distinguish between 'think' and 'believe', you believe it exists. That is, of course, your right. Unfortunately, neither your New Testament in general, nor the Passion Narrative in specific, has any claim to credibility. The latter doesn't even rise to the level of mediocre fiction.

    Have fun with your fable.
     
  18. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    Was Jesus sent to be crucified?

    Did Jesus die because it was MY will or something I had preordained? No, I did not choose to send him down to Earth, nor was it MY choice to have him crucified.
    Jesus didn't fulfill some hidden agenda of MINE. In fact, he knew he was going to die, and he knew how he was going to die. He just didn't care. He knew enough about life and death not to BE afraid.-GOD
    Hello It's Me: An Interview With GOD
    Chapter: Jesus The Christ Page:75
     
  19. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    May be if you lot would accepted Paul as the anti-christ it would make a lot more sense
    Then the world can stop arguing over Christ and stupid things that arnt even relavant,
    The Bible is clearly against sacrifice, the pharisee decided to kill Christ and say that it could cover sin.
    Paul established this as a church, they later edited the bible to make it fit to this perspective.
    Christ mentions the cross before his death as it is a symbol for God and infinity in many beliefs world wide.
    It means the time line east to west and future and past.
    Christ didnt want to die as it is clear him praying before he was taken that he didn't want it.
    Paul has re-wrote most of Christ and changed it for grace and faith in Christ.
    So instead of argue over lies, why not find the truth that is contained and see that God is one and so are his prophets.
    Mohamed was right they did change it and it was Paul, This turns the Jewish, Christians, Muslim and Rastafari against each other
    Christ said and did it right as far as I can see, he didn't make out any of the lies that cause conflict they mainly come from Paul.
    Oh and both religions say to bring the sword, the refrence where christ says it, is that you stand up for what is right, even against family.
    Peace B with U all
     
  20. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Wizanda,

    I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. Christ *chose* Paul.

    If our accounts are as heavily edited as you say, then give up on any form of Christianity. It's lost, so just go find something else. I don't believe for a second that Paul spear-headed some great editing of our texts. He was executed in the 50s, and the Gospels were probably written after that.

    The Apostles also went from Rome to India. He couldn't have corrupted all of Christianity, edited books that weren't written, and subverted all the people that the Apostles taught. Do you think Peter just stood by and let it happen? What about John?

    And why do you believe the Pharisees killed Jesus "to cover sin?" The Jews despised human sacrifice. What you're saying is far, far more anti-semitic than anything the Gospels can even be accused of. You seriously believe they were practicing human sacrifice with Jesus? I'm almost dumbfounded.

    So, would you please tell me how Paul did this, and how it is that he managed to best all the Apostles? Since you say the Gospels are edited, I doubt you can rely on those and be consistent.

    How is it that he was able to turn Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Rastafari against each other? There *weren't* any Muslims or Rastafari then. Paul couldn't have done anything there. Paul lived almost seven hundred years before Muhammed created Islam. He lived almost two millennia before the Rastafari. He can't create division between people that didn't exist.

    If you expect me to drop my faith in the Church and trust in Paul's writings as "anti-christ," then you're going to have to do some explaining and some documenting. Since you believe he changed the Bible do *not* use the Bible to do it. If I were to take you seriously, then the Bible could not be trusted with what you're saying, and as I see it, that leaves you with probably zero sources.
     
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