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Was Jesus' Sacrifice Significant?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by bartdanr, Aug 31, 2005.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Never said or implied such a thing...

    Peace be with you.
     
  2. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Ahh.. I see. Ok

    As I believe Jesus was fully human and divine, I do believe it was quite significant.

    Scott
     
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I think you misunderstood, my friend;

    I believe what Scott was trying to say is that the significance of Jesus' sacrifice is something so very great, for those of us who believe that God sent his only begotten son on Earth, to die a horrible death, so that we could be forgiven our sins.

    I don't think for a minute that Scott was saying that it would mean nothing to someone who does not follow 'Blind faith' - I think he was trying to say that Jesus' death was an enormously significant act. I think you misunderstood.;)
     
  4. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    sorry :bonk:


    i misunderstood him.

    i apologize for you Mr. Scott in case i thought you meant somthing else.


    Peace... :)
     
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  5. bartdanr

    bartdanr Member

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    HI Scott, thanks for the post.

    I'm trying to relate it just to a human sacrifice--if I knew for a fact (or as well as I can know anything) that I will have to suffer and die and be dead for just 3 days, after which I would be given everything back and it would result in the salvation of all humankind, then I would do it--no question! But it seems almost too easy. (Now, being sent enterally to hell to save humankind--that would be a real sacrifice!)

    Similarly, if I try to look at it from God's perspective, then he would know even better than Jesus the man what would happen--again, he would lose precisely nothing for good, and gain not only the salvation of all humankind and their eternal homage and worship. (Now, to do that sacrifice in such a way that no one would ever know--that, again, would be greater.)

    So I really don't see how Jesus--whether in his divinity or humanity--gave up anything permanently. Could you please explain how you see it?

    Peace
     
  6. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe you.... give me a plank of wood and some nails and I'll come to your house and convice you otherwise... hehe:D .... and it won't even kill you.... I'll just do one hand.... and you will experience a pain that will change your life.:)

    Easy? Coming from someone who has been shot... knowing that my mortality was not in jeapardy did not add much comfort to the pain.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree.

    PBWY,
    Scott
     
  7. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    The sacrifice didn't come with his death. It came before his death, when he took upon himself the sins of the world. That was a sacrifice, that pained him so much that he asked his Father to allow him to not do it, that it caused him to bleed from every pore in his body. he suffered enough to take everyone's sins. He just died, and rose again, to allow all of us to be resurected.
     
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  8. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    That's so well put, aqualung......fruballicious!:clap
     
  9. bartdanr

    bartdanr Member

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    Hi Scott, thanks for your post.

    It seems to easy in that though the physical pain is intense (but short), if it can result in the whole world being saved--and I'd survive, be fully healed, and loved and admired--even worshipped--by millions of people? Yes, easy at that price. It is relatively cheap--indeed, incredibly cheap--at the price. A few hours of intense suffering, three days in the grave--and the world is saved? Yes, very cheap.

    Jesus' pain was great; I will not dispute that. But others have suffered more. Others have suffered more, for longer. Others suffered more for longer and had no absolute assurance that they would be resurrected three days later and glorified.

    No, I don't want to be crucified...but if I could have the assurance that my crucifixion would result in what Jesus' crucifixtion allegedly resulted in (salvation for all humanity, glorification of self and even being worshipped), it would be an easy choice. Heck, I'd even do it without recognition. (I, for one, don't care to be worshipped...indeed, it seems to contradict Jesus' claim to come to serve rather than be served.) You driving holes in my hands (and of course I realize you're joking) will only cause me pain, and result in no real good. That's a big difference.

    Peace
     
  10. bartdanr

    bartdanr Member

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    Hi Aqualung, thanks for the post.

    Does Jesus still bear the sins of the world? Does he still suffer with them? Will he suffer for eternity?

    If you say no, then I'd say that he bore something for a brief span of time...a few hours, perhaps, if you time it from the prayer in the Garden. Again, he did not lose something that he did not also quickly regain. It was suffering for a time; and even more, since he knew it would end in something glorious, then one could weigh the cost and figure it was worth a few hours of suffering.

    If you say yes, he still suffers, then perhaps I could consider it a great sacrifice. But I'd like a good explination on how you see that it works that way.

    Peace
     
  11. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    No.
    ]
    He still has to suffer for all the people who just don't care. He made that huge sacrifice for the entire world, and a lot of them just don't care. Do you know how it hurts when people don't care? It hurts a lot. Now, what if you saved everybody from death, and presented everybody with the opportunity to some day live with him, if you just live a good life, and nobody takes it? That would hurt.
     
  12. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree... but let's move on.
    "Others"??? There is only one God, one Christ... and I don't compare our human understanding of pain with taking on the sins of the world.

    And I'm also not sure where you get "absolute assurance".... the story of Christ's agony in the Garden does not scream out "assurance"... please explain.

    S
     
  13. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    The ransom became necessary because of the sin of Adam. By disobeying God, Adam gaveto his offspring a legacy of sickness, sorrow, pain, and death. (Genesis 2:17; romans 6;23 Jesus was a perfect man the same way that adam was , but adam was not doing things Gods way but Jesus was obedient and faithful to God right up to his death he gave the value of the sacrifice to Jehovah God his father in the heavens

    the ransom is paid "to God."

    In Adam all are dying," said the apostle Paul. (1 Corinthians 15:22) The ransom thus had to involve the death of the exact equal of Adam—a perfect human. (Romans 5:14) No other kind of creature could balance the scales of justice. Only a perfect human, someone not under the Adamic death sentence, could offer "a corresponding ransom"—one corresponding perfectly to Adam. (1 Timothy 2:6)

    Jehovah arranged to have a perfect man voluntarily sacrifice his life

    Only Jehovah could provide "the Lamb . . . that takes away the sin of the world." (John 1:29)

    By nullifying the death sentence upon Adam’s obedient offspring, the ransom would cut off the destructive power of sin right at its source.—Romans 5:16.

    Yes, Jehovah made the supreme sacrifice of sending his only-begotten Son, "the one he was specially fond of." (Proverbs 8:30)

    To illustrate: Imagine that you live in a town where most of the residents are employed at a large factory. You and your neighbors are well paid for your labors and lead comfortable lives. That is, until the day the factory closes its doors. The reason? The factory manager turned corrupt, forcing the business into bankruptcy. Suddenly out of work, you and your neighbors are unable to pay the bills. Marriage mates, children, and creditors suffer because of that one man’s corruption. Is there a way out? Yes! A wealthy benefactor decides to intervene. He appreciates the value of the company. He also feels for its many employees and their families. So he arranges to pay off the company’s debt and reopen the factory. The cancellation of that one debt brings relief to the many employees and their families and to the creditors. Similarly, the cancellation of Adam’s debt benefits untold millions

    Willingly, God’s Son "emptied himself" of his heavenly nature. (Philippians 2:7)

    the benefits of the ransom will gradually be applied to obedient mankind over a period of a thousand years.—1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Revelation 20:6; 21:3, 4.

    In order to counterbalance the sin of Adam, Jesus had to die, not as a perfect child, but as a perfect man. Remember, Adam’s sin was willful, carried out with full knowledge of the seriousness of the act and its consequences. So in order to become "the last Adam" and cover that sin, Jesus had to make a mature, knowing choice to keep his integrity to Jehovah. (1 Corinthians 15:45, 47) Thus Jesus’ entire faithful life course—including his sacrificial death—served as "one act of justification."—Romans 5:18, 19

     
  14. bartdanr

    bartdanr Member

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    Thanks for the response, Aqualung.

    I would hope that if I was emotionally mature enough, I would be happy just saving everybody, and I wouldn't expect people calling me a hero. I certainly wouldn't want them to worship me. And I shouldn't expect people to care if my saving of them was all behind the scenes. (Yes, Jesus' execution was public, but thousands of people were crucified by Rome publically. The idea that it was to save the whole world was an interpretation and the actual act of saving the world is invisible in this realm.)

    Sure, it hurts that people don't want to live a good life. But it hurts me that they don't live well with each other than that one day they want to live with me or not. And I wouldn't save people conditionally--just in order for them to live a good life, otherwise they'd be damned. (Of course, if you're a universalist, then "living a good life" is not a necessary condition for salvation. And many Christians consider "living a good life" as unnecessary--only faith is necessary, though it pleases Christ to live a good life.)

    But your initial comment was "He made that huge sacrifice..." and yet I don't see it as huge. What did he lose that he didn't regain? I will admit that he suffered a lot for a short period of time, but other people suffered longer and physically more than he did...and those others did so without the promise of resurrection in three days and glorificaion, and worship by millions of followers for eternity.

    Now, you can understand that Jesus' suffering was worse because of him bearing the sins of the world. But again, that was temporary. No matter how heavy that burden was, he didn't bear it for more than 33 years on the outside. (Now, you might believe that he still bears those sins, though theologically I don't know of any Christians who believe that.)

    Peace
     
  15. bartdanr

    bartdanr Member

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    Hi Scott, thanks for your post.

    Well, if you postulate a metaphysical act of "taking on the sins of the world" as being the most horrible thing possible, then by definition, Jesus' sacrifice was the greatest sacrifice ever. Perhaps we should delve more into that term so I can understand what that really means. However, and I need to keep emphasizing this, it was temporary. The duration was short, even if the pain was intense.

    By "absolute assurance", Jesus made confident prophecies on many occasions on his death, burial and resurrection. Perhaps you interpret the agony in the garden as a period of self-doubt, lack of faith, whatever. If so, perhaps Jesus had doubts on his resurrection at that time, no matter how assured he was before.

    But so many others--I'd venture to say most everyone else who has sacrificed themselves for others--had no assurance close to that of Jesus. Yes, many had faith in the resurrection; but did any have greater faith or hope than Jesus did, even in his moments of self-doubt?

    Peace
     
  16. bartdanr

    bartdanr Member

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    Thanks for your post, May.

    I think you did a good job of summing up the common Christian understanding of the meaning of Jesus' sacrifice.

    You speak of "paying a ransom" and yet also of "cancelling a debt." However, if a debt is paid, it isn't cancelled; and if it's cancelled, it doesn't need to be paid. I think that saying "Jesus paid the price" and "God forgave our sin" is contradictory: you either pay, or you forgive. And I don't see why God couldn't just forgive without him paying himself a certain price.

    Why must "scales of Justice be balanced?" And how is one man's death (no matter how perfect the man) equivalent to the death of billions of people? It does not seem justice to say "the wages of sin is death"--and someone else's death can be substituted for yours.

    If in our crimminal justice system, a murderer was about to be executed, but another man--let's say a wonderful man, giving and loving and in whom no one can find fault (and further, that he was of the family of the victim of the crime)--said "execute me instead"--what would we do? We might say "how noble of that man to offer!" but would anyone say that justice was served by killing the good man and setting the murderer free?

    Yes, you might call it mercy of sorts; but how can it also be justice? Justice doesn't say "the penalty for murder is death, but in leiu of the murderer's execution, a voluntary substitute may be executed." It seems as though the idea lacks coherence.

    The idea that we inherit Adam's sin (as the "corrupt manager") seems unjust, even by Biblical standards (such as in Jer 31:30, Eze 18:2ff). "The corruption of blood", where children are accountable for their parent's crime, has long been recognized as unjust.

    Anyway, perhaps this is just a theological "stone of offense" or "stone of stumbling" that I will never reach beyond, and the conversations here will just go round and round, neither one convincing the other. I was once as you are now; perhaps one day I might come again to be as you are now, or you might become as I am now--or both, and we'll switch positions, debating the oppostie point of view! ;)

    Peace

    P.S.--Your quote from Proverbs 8 seems a bit out of context. It was wisdom--personified as female--speaking, not Jesus.
     
  17. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Would you really? Let's lay you have a five year old son. And one day he is playing with his ball near the road. It runs into the road, and a car drives up at really high speeds, and you know the two will collide. You jump in front, pushing your son away, and then you get hit and die. If then, you could learn that the five year old gets the hugest ego, saying that appearantly it is in the stars that he live, and he starts ordering around his parents, and becomes a real brat, and doesn't even do anything with the life you so generously allowed him to have, that woudn't make you in the slightest bit mad?
    :confused: Yeah. I see people every day bleeding from every pore because of how much they are suffering.:rolleyes:

    So am I to understand that the only criteria for "significant" is how much suffereing there was? It really doesn't matter what the result of the sacrifice was (such as the salvation from physical death of every human being and the possiblity of eternal exaltation, in Jesus's case; or, say, the preservation of one relationship that is obviously not very meaning ful on one end, in the case of an abusive spouse) as long as it was painful, long, and horrid? Weird. Yep, I guess that woman should be exalted even above Jesus when she gets to heaven, because her pain was so looong, and it accomplished so muuuch. Wow. We should all be kissing their feet.
     
  18. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I know that you are already explaining what you already believing in but you missed somthing in the story which is that the dad in your story supposed to has parents and the only way to forgive for what your brothers did so they have to through you in the street letting a car to hit you then everybody will be pleased and all of them will be happy for thier entire life and i don't have to remind you that you are contradicting yourself because Jesus was asking God for help in the cruci-FICTION so don't tell me that the dad in your story will say Ohh NOOO i don't wanna do this help ... help ... then he will say through himself saving his son ??? anyway i see your whole example dosn't work because i'm confused whether you referring to God as God"the father" or Jesus i don't know. please tell me what do you mean !!! :help:

    come on, the guy is just trying to say that 2 others were in that place with Jesus and they had pain more than him and he didn't mean how painfull it was but how normal it was ( the suffering thing ) to wash the sin of the entire world. please rethink about it.
     
  19. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    i'm seeing missed things in your story.

    anyway you are talking about the sin right?

    and we have here:

    we have sins here too from Aqualung.

    you forgot that the owner of the bank you claimed was so generous because regarding to his rules:

    "If you had one hundred sheep, and one of them strayed away and was lost in the wilderness, wouldn't you leave the ninety-nine others to go and search for the lost one until you found it? And then you would joyfully carry it home on your shoulders. When you arrived, you would call together your friends and neighbors to rejoice with you because your lost sheep was found. In the same way, heaven will be happier over one lost sinner who returns to God than over ninety-nine others who are righteous and haven't strayed away! (NLT, Luke 15:3-7)

    [font=Arial, Helvetica]and forgive us our sins, just as we have forgiven those who have sinned against us.[font=Arial, Helvetica] (TLB, Matthew 6:12)[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica]If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica] (NLT, Matthew 6:14-15)[/font]

    1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

    Hosea 14:2-3 "Take words with you and return to the Lord. Say to him: 'Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the fruit of our lips...We will never again say 'our gods' to what our own hands have made'" (NIV).

    Isaiah 55:7 "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."
    Ezekiel 18:21, "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die."

    Isaiah 44:22 (NIV), "I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to me for I have redeemed you."

    Micah 7:19, "He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea."

    see !!! just use the magic word FORGIVE ME GOD. :shout

    [/font]see !! so easy

     
  20. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
    I still don't understand your emphasis on the duration... my emphasis is in the free sacrafice of self and obedience to the Father... to me, a much more important distinction than watching the crucifiction with a stop watch.
    Again... I appreciate your commentary, but I still don't understand the point you are trying to make (assuming you are)...

    ... for the record, I have no doubt about my resurrection, either.:)
    I'd have to agree.... but again, I don't know why this is important... please help explain.
     
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