Was Jesus really a Jewish rabbi?

[rosends]

The nuances about the term priest also exist for the term rabbi. There are different traditions regarding what rabbi do. Judaism 101: Rabbis, Priests, and Other Religious Functionaries

There are different levels of ordination which allow for different communal roles. That the rabbi has a variety of functions remains immaterial and not related to anything having to do with priests. You are wandering.

 

[Harel13]

Melamed and Darshan, but as the Messiah's role was to teach us how to live, Jesus was no less of a rabbi. Jesus was also like a pastor.

I wasn't talking about the messiah. However, are you saying the messiah will be a rabbi?

 

[Harel13]

You can see it from the story itself. Reaping isn't mentioned anywhere in the Torah as a melachah, but the author of the NT takes it for granted that it's prohibited. Otherwise, what are the Pharisees complaining about if it's considered permitted?

Wow, that's excellent. I don't know why I never thought of that myself.

 

[Harel13]

You can see it from the story itself. Reaping isn't mentioned anywhere in the Torah as a melachah, but the author of the NT takes it for granted that it's prohibited. Otherwise, what are the Pharisees complaining about if it's considered permitted?

@Wandering Monk

 

[Skywalker]

I wasn't talking about the messiah. However, are you saying the messiah will be a rabbi?

Jesus didn't agree with the title Rabbi, or Teacher, but him accepting it was because he was the Messiah. Daniel 12:4 says, "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.” Daniel 7:13–14 refers to the Messiah.

 

[Skywalker]

There are different levels of ordination which allow for different communal roles. That the rabbi has a variety of functions remains immaterial and not related to anything having to do with priests. You are wandering.

I'm not making a direct comparison with rabbis and priests, I'm saying that both have a variety of functions, and there is no one absolute definition for either, and that's why Jesus not being a rabbi by the standards of the Pharisees doesn't make him any less of a rabbi.

 

[Harel13]

Jesus didn't agree with the title Rabbi, or Teacher, but him accepting it was because he was the Messiah. Daniel 12:4 says, "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.” Daniel 7:13–14 refers to the Messiah.

So he wasn't a rabbi?
Great, we still agree.

 

[Skywalker]

So he wasn't a rabbi?
Great, we still agree.

Jesus was referred to as teacher, which is a synonym for rabbi.

 

[Harel13]

Jesus was referred to as teacher, which is a synonym for rabbi.

But we agree he was not ordained, right? Therefore, no reason for any Christian to come up to a Jew saying Jesus was a rabbi in the modern sense of the word, right?

 

[Skywalker]

But we agree he was not ordained, right? Therefore, no reason for any Christian to come up to a Jew saying Jesus was a rabbi in the modern sense of the word, right?

It doesn't make a difference whether Jesus was a rabbi in the modern sense of the word, because that wouldn't make Jesus any less of a rabbi.

 

[Harel13]

It doesn't make a difference whether Jesus was a rabbi in the modern sense of the word, because that wouldn't make Jesus any less of a rabbi.

It does, indeed. Otherwise I wouldn't have made this thread. I try not to make senseless threads.

 

[Skywalker]

Yes, we know Jesus did these things according to the NT. But how do you know that such individuals were referred to as "rabbi"? I hypothesize in the OP that the disciples borrowed the term from the Pharisee authorities, being unlearned and not properly knowing what the term meant at the time. In the Hebrew of the time, he would have likely been more correctly defined as a "Melamed" with hints of a "Darshan", not a "Rabbi".

Because of the different definitions of rabbi, similar to the different definitions of priest. How Both New Testament “Presbyters” and Old Testament “Cohenim” Became “Priests” in English

We now turn to those Jewish religious officials in the Bible who are today generally translated into English as “priests.” The Old Testament Hebrew word for the ministers of the Old Covenant is כֹּ֣הֲנִ֔ים [kō·hēn·īm or cohenim], singular כֹּהֵן [kō·hēn or cohen]. Despite the fact that the word “priest” originates from the New Testament presbyter, and that that word has no immediate, etymological connection to the ministry of the Old Covenant — these Hebrew ministers came to be called “priests” in English, and in fact there is no other word in English that can adequately be applied to them or what they did.

The same Hebrew word cohenim was used to describe Egyptian religious ministers (Genesis 41:45) and ministers of Baal (2 Kings 10:19), Chemosh (Jeremiah 48:7), and others. So it appears that even in Hebrew the word was a generic term for what a minister did, his role and relationship to a divine cult, and not anything specific to the Hebrew God or covenant. It is fitting, then, that when the Hebrew ministers were described in other languages, they were likewise described with those languages’ words for a sacrificing religious minister.

 

[Skywalker]

You don't think he was.
I think that Jesus (and the Baptist) were most definitely acting against Temple corruption and greed.
Even the Temple coins were disgusting for Jews to have to touch. If Christian churches had their own coinage, stuffed images on to them that disgusted you (like maybe an image of Satan, and a sexy model in bikini on the rear, with the initials of the CEO of (say) Lenin?) and were ripping you off on the money exchange anyway I think that you would either not go there or push for change. Just the coinage was a disgrace even before the corruption etc.

It's nice that Gandhi and King took notice of Christianity but the history of Christianity is not of pacifism. Most of the thugs that support Trump think they have Christianity right and they are not pacifists.....

Jesus never came to overthrow the Roman or Jewish spiritual leaders. The goal of Jesus was spiritual, not political, change. When Jesus rules for a thousand years, knowledge of God will increase.

 

[oldbadger]

Jesus never came to overthrow the Roman or Jewish spiritual leaders. The goal of Jesus was spiritual, not political, change. When Jesus rules for a thousand years, knowledge of God will increase.

Your faith is fine by me, OK?

 

[rosends]

there is no one absolute definition for either,

Can you show me that, during the beginning of the common era, this was true? So far the only thing that you have presented which claims this is the website which talked about Gamliel, but which had a serious logical error.

and that's why Jesus not being a rabbi by the standards of the Pharisees doesn't make him any less of a rabbi.

Would you feel comfortable if I called him a lawyer or a doctor (or "scientist") or an engineer? Sure, he was not any of those things by the standards of people who set up those groups, but that doesn't make him any less of them, right?

 

[Skywalker]

Can you show me that, during the beginning of the common era, this was true? So far the only thing that you have presented which claims this is the website which talked about Gamliel, but which had a serious logical error.

Would you feel comfortable if I called him a lawyer or a doctor (or "scientist") or an engineer? Sure, he was not any of those things by the standards of people who set up those groups, but that doesn't make him any less of them, right?

it's similar to how priest has meanings beyond the term elder.

How Both New Testament “Presbyters” and Old Testament “Cohenim” Became “Priests” in English

In the Greek New Testament, when the Jewish religious officials are described in the Gospels, or when Jesus is called our “high priest,” the Greek word used is ἱερεύς [hiereus], plural ἱερεῖς [hiereis], from ἱερός[hieros], hallowed or holy[cf. English hieroglyphics, “holy symbols”]: meaning a minister in the cult of a god, especially a minister who makes sacrifices. It is the same word used in Greek for the ministers of the pagan Greek religion. In the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament, the cohenim of the Old Covenant were likewise translated as hiereis.

Jesus was a spiritual leader. A spiritual leader has nothing to do with being a lawyer, doctor, scientist, or engineer.

 

[Skywalker]

I think you might be getting a bit mixed up with the terminology.
Let me try to assist:

Kohen - Temple worker. Takes part in the Temple Service.
Rabbi - Communal leader and man of law first, spiritual advisor second.
Melamed - Person whose occupation is teaching.
Darshan - Orator and/or man of exegetical study.

Note: A rabbi could also be a melamed and/or a darshan. A kohen could have also been a rabbi and/or a melamed and/or a darshan.

Priest - Religious communal leader, usually in terms of performing religious rituals.
Pastor - Christian communal leader, often in terms of spiritual guidance.

Now, out of these options, choose which one you think Jesus is and explain why, preferably with extra-NT evidence, please.

Jesus had the threefold office of prophet, priest, and king. Threefold office - Wikipedia

While the office of king is that most frequently with the Messiah, the role of Jesus aspriest, which involves intercession before God, is also prominent in the New Testament, being most fully explained in chapters 7 to 10 of the Book of Hebrews.

Jesus was also like a pastor. Jesus the ultimate pastor

When Jesus and other New Testament writers repeatedly refer to the Lord as a "Shepherd," the original word they use is the same as the one for "pas tor." In Latin based languages, the word "pastor" is the word for "shepherd," and vice versa. Thus when the New Testament, or Jesus Himself, talks of the "Good Shepherd," one could say it refers to Jesus as the "Good Pastor."

The office of pastor was something Jesus established. Pastor - Wikipedia

Christ's Charge to Peter by Raphael, 1515. In telling Peter to feed his sheep, Christ appointed him as a pastor.

 

[Harel13]

Jesus had the threefold office of prophet, priest, and king. Threefold office - Wikipedia

That's not the subject of this thread.

Jesus was also like a pastor. Jesus the ultimate pastor

I can also post a link that says what I argue for: Was Jesus really a Jewish rabbi?
The question is, does it add anything?

The office of pastor was something Jesus established. Pastor - Wikipedia

Obviously, considering he fathered Christianity...

 

[Skywalker]

That's not the subject of this thread.

I can also post a link that says what I argue for: Was Jesus really a Jewish rabbi?
The question is, does it add anything?

Obviously, considering he fathered Christianity...

Jesus didn't use the term priest because it had other connotations. In the same way, a rabbi can be a priest but it's not the best term. Since the Talmud was written by human beings and the Pharisees were human beings, Jesus not fitting their definition of a rabbi doesn't mean that rabbi wasn't the best term for Jesus.

 

[Harel13]

Jesus didn't use the term priest because it had other connotations. In the same way, a rabbi can be a priest but it's not the best term. Since the Talmud was written by human beings and the Pharisees were human beings, Jesus not fitting their definition of a rabbi doesn't mean that rabbi wasn't the best term for Jesus.

So "priest" can have other connotations but "rabbi" can't? How odd.