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Featured Was Jesus Perfect

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by idea, Jun 27, 2021.

  1. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    I note that you chose to ignore the gist of my post. Too painful?
     
  2. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    Now i understand why you think it is made up or symbolic :blush: i did forget that baha'is do not believe in literally demons
     
  3. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    Others would say the Quran is a product of the Holy Spirit. Do you agree with them? Did the prophets in the Quran speak falsely? Is the Quran a coherent and consistent message? The Quran then, is evidence that God can be heard and that His words can be communicated through the Spirit.

    The Bible has the same origin as the Quran, or Gita (the Bhagavad Gita is the oldest), or Tao Te Ching, or all the rest. They are compilations of stories written by people listening to their own amazing inner light.
     
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  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    As we know from the Bible, there are true prophets and false prophets.

    If you ask a Muslim, he/she will tell you that the Qur'an was revealed to one man, Muhammad, over a period of 23 years. In contrast, the Bible was revealed to over forty prophets over a period of about 1500 years.

    It's much harder to construct a coherent narrative over 1500 years than it is for one man to narrate his own message. Each prophet must present a prophecy that fits perfectly with what goes before and comes afterwards. True prophets speak words of truth, and foretell events that come to pass. And the Bible is full of such prophecies. All this adds weight to the argument that the Bible is the written word of God (as opposed to the living Word).

    Can the same be said for any other holy book? You show me the prophecies, and their fulfilment!
     
  5. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    The quatrains of Nostradamus are also filled with prophecies. Just ask anyone who believes in the quatrains of Nostradamus.


    When the quatrains of Nostradamus are examined it is found they really prophecize nothing. They are little more than vague ramblings.
    When the prophecies of the Bible are examined it is found they really prophecize nothing. They are little more than vague ramblings.
     
  6. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    @Bree has a very good point! You eat meat but at the same time you are against that animals being killed? you know the meat you eat is dead animals? The animals you have eaten is innocent animals too.

    You believe the pigs the demons killed is innocent and that it is terrible they died but at the same time you eat meat??

    I'm a vegetarian. I dislike animals being killed. If you really hate animals being killed then stop eating meat.
     
    #126 Meandflower, Jul 1, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2021
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  7. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    I was referring to the mass slaughter of whales. I was not commenting on the mythical biblical pigs.
     
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    That's nonsense. The prophecies of the Bible are numerous and specific.

    There is a huge difference between the vague ramblings of a clairvoyant and the reiterated truths of the prophets of God.

    Many of the biblical prophets were closely associated with the kings of Judah and Israel, and their guidance was essential in a precarious world where survival was dependant on making the right choices and doing what God demanded. In matters of state, and morality, the prophets were sought for advice.

    Try reading the book of lsaiah, and you'll see what kind of relationship this prophet had with four successive kings in Judah. You'll also come across some very specific prophecies.

    Once again, in Nostradamus we have a lone individual whose predictions are unsupported. In contrast, the Bible provides us with a multitude of prophets who speak with one voice - the voice of God. Nor is it a coincidence that these prophets should be found amongst the children of Israel, for God chose the children of Abraham, lsaac and Jacob as his favoured nation. They were to be the guardians of his revealed word. It was from amongst these people that the Messiah would arise.
     
  9. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    That's what you said. Then you followed up with several paragraphs of nothing much. It would've done much more for your argument if you had been able to produce a few of those "numerous and specific" prophecies.
     
  10. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The prophecies listed below are those that apply to Jesus as the Suffering Servant. As one works through the list the lens of prophecy becomes ever more detailed and specific. Ultimately, when taking all these prophecies into account, there can only be one man who 'fits the bill' - Jesus Christ.



    1. Genesis 3:15 > Galatians 4:4; 1 John 3:8. The seed of the woman.

    2. Genesis 12:3 > Matthew 1:1; Acts 3:25; 18:18; 22:18; Galatians 3:16. The seed of Abraham.

    3. Genesis 17:19; 21:12 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Hebrews 11:17-19. The seed of Isaac.

    4. Genesis 28:14; Numbers 24:17,19 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Revelation 22:16. The star out of Jacob who will have dominion.

    5. Genesis 49:10 > Matthew 1:2-3; Luke 3:33; Hebrews 7:14. A descendant of Judah.

    6. 2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 9:6 (7); Jeremiah 23:5 > Matthew 1:1,6; Acts 11:23; Romans 1:4. A descendant of David and heir to his throne.

    7. Micah 5:1 (2) > John 11, 14; 8:58; Ephesians 1:3-14; Colossians1:15-19; Revelation 5:11. The Messiah’s eternal existence.

    8. Psalm 2:7; Proverbs 30:4 > Matthew 3:17; Luke 1:32. The Messiah is the Son of God.

    9. Isaiah 9:5-6 (6-7); Jeremiah 23:5-6 > Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:9-11. The Messiah bears God’s own name.

    10. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1, 16,19; Luke 3:1,23. Coming 483 years after the rebuilding of the wall in Jerusalem.

    11. Micah 5:1(2) > Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7. Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, Judea.

    13. Psalm 72:10-11 > Matthew 2:1-11. Adored by great persons.

    14. Isaiah 40: 3-5; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 3:1-3; Luke 1:17; 3:2-6. Announced by prophet.

    15. Isaiah 11:2; 61:1; Psalm 45:8 (7) > Matthew 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38. Anointed with the Spirit of God.

    16. Deuteronomy 18:15,18 > Acts 3:20-22. A prophet like Moses.

    17. Isaiah 61:1-2 > Luke 4:18-19. Proclaims liberty and the acceptable year of the Lord.

    18. Isaiah 35:5-6; 42:18 > Matthew 11:5 and throughout the Gospels. Ministry of healing.

    19. Isaiah 8:23 – 9:1 (9:1-2) > Matthew 4:12-16. A ministry in Galilee.

    20. Isaiah 40:11; 42:3 > Matthew 12:15,20; Hebrews 4:15. Be tender and compassionate.

    21. Isaiah 42:2 > Matthew 12:15-16,19. Be meek and unostentatious.

    22. Isaiah 53:9 > 1 Peter 2:22. Be sinless and without guile.

    23. Isaiah 53:12; Psalm 69:10 > Romans 15:13. Bear the reproaches due to others.

    24. Psalm 110:4 > Hebrews 5:5-6. Be a priest.

    25. Zechariah 9:9 > Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11. Enter Jerusalem on the foal of an ***.

    26. Haggai 2:7-9; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 21:12-24; Luke 2:27-38, 45-50: John 2:13-22. Enter the Temple with authority.

    27. Isaiah 49:7; Psalm 69:5 (4) > John 7:48; 15:24-25. Be hated without cause.

    28. Isaiah 53:2; 63:3; Psalm 69:9 (8) > Mark 6:3: Luke 9:58; John1:11, 7:3-5. Rejected by his own people.

    29. Psalm 118:22 > Matthew 21:42; John 7:48. Rejected by the Jewish leadership.

    30. Psalm 2:1-2 > Acts 4:27. Plotted against by both Jews and Gentiles.

    31. Psalm 41:9; 55:13-15 (12-14) >Matthew 26:21-25, 47-50; John 13:18-21; Acts 1:16-18. Betrayed by a friend.

    32. Zechariah 11:12 > Matthew 26:15. Sold for 30 pieces of silver.

    33. Zechariah 11:13 > Matthew 27:7. Have his price given for a potter’s field.

    34. Zechariah 13:7 > Matthew 26:31,56. Forsaken by his disciples.

    35. Micah 4:14 (5:1) > Matthew 27:30. Struck on the cheek.

    36. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:30. Spat on.

    37. Psalm 22:8-9 (7-8) > Matthew 27:31, 39-44, 67-68. Mocked.

    38. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:26,30. Beaten.

    39. Psalm 22:17; Zechariah 12:10 (16) > Matthew 27:35; Luke 24:39; John 19:18, 34-37; 20:35; Revelation 1:7. Crucifixion.

    40. Psalm 22:16 (15) > John 19:28. Thirsty during crucifixion.

    41. Psalm 69:22 (21) > Matthew 27:34. Given vinegar to quench thirst.

    42. Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:21 (20) >John 19:33-36. Executed without a bone broken.

    43. Isaiah 53:12 > Matthew 27:38. Considered a transgressor.

    44. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1; Luke 3:1,23. ‘Cut off, but not for himself’.

    45. Isaiah 53:5-7, 12 > Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 3:16; Acts 8:30-35. Atone for the sins of mankind.

    46. Isaiah 53:9 > Matthew 27:57-60. Buried with the rich when dead.

    47. Isaiah 53:9-10; Psalm 2:7; 16:10 > Matthew 28:1-20; Acts 2:23-36; 13:33-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-6. Raised from the dead.

    48. Psalm 16:11; 68:19 (18); 110:1 > Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-11; 7:55; Hebrews 1:3. Ascend to the right hand of God.

    49. Zechariah 6:13 > Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25-8:2. Exercise his priestly office in heaven.

    50. Isaiah 28:16; Psalm 118:22-23 > Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7. The cornerstone of God’s spiritual temple.

    51. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1 > Acts 10:45. Sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews.

    52. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1-4; 49:1-2 > Matthew 12:21; Romans 15:10. Accepted by the Gentiles.
     
  11. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein The Uncuckable
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    The pig story always bothered me, too. I'm hoping there's some context I'm missing.
     
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  12. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    I ask you to produce a few "numerous and specific" prophecies. Did you do that? No. Instead, you posted a long list and made the preemptive excuse..."taking all these prophecies into account". How really sad. You could not show even one specific prophecy.

    Do I really have to do your work to try to support your unsupportable argument? I'll try. Starting at the top, so you don't accuse me of cherry-picking...

    Genesis 3
    15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.​

    If that is what you consider a prophecy then I can understand why you believe there are "numerous and specific" prophecies. Now tell us what, specifically, is being prophecized.

    Galatians 4
    4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,​

    Now tell us what, specifically, is being prophesized in the above.

    John 3
    8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.​

    Now tell us what, specifically, is being prophesized in the above. I await your response.
     
  13. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Here is one of those "vague ramblings".
    The young lion will overcome the older one,
    On the field of combat in a single battle;
    He will pierce his eyes through a golden cage,
    Two wounds made one, then he dies a cruel death.

    Note the use of the word "will". Nostradamus takes about the future in his prophecies. Things that will happen. Two of your Biblical prophecies, listed above, don't talk about the future at all. Genesis 3:3 does, but what is it prophecizing is so general and vague it cannot be considered a prophecy.


    Nostradamus, on the other hand, can be seen to actually predict ...
    In the summer of 1559 King Henry II of France (older one) lined up to joust Gabriel, Comte de Montgomery, (young lion), who was six years his junior.
    In their final pass, Montgomery's lance tilted up, burst through the king's poorly-secured visor (pierce his eyes through a golden cage), and splintered, according to "On the Death of Henry II." In the Journal of Neurosurgery, Kamilah Dowling and James
    That is far more specific and accurate than "I will put enmity between thee and the woman".
     
  14. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    Actors complain that anyone who has read the book will hate the movie, because any book leaves out all the context, all the details, and no actor, play, or movie can ever capture the many diverse views of those who read the book. A good book allows the reader to fill in the context, to pull it into their own life, attach it some similar experience they had, allows each person to find some individual meaning to it. A lovable main character forced to choose between two unpleasant tasks - there is no good place to put a devil, is there?
     
  15. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    ...and as we know from Psychiatry, about 10% of otherwise healthy people have grandiose delusions. Common delusions are fictitious beliefs about having power or authority over others, such as believing they are chosen by God. Grandiose delusions are often accompanied by such things as visual and auditory hallucinations, and positive feelings of elevation,

    Until a healthy sense of self-esteem can be found elsewhere, cognitive dissonance will be used by those with grandiose delusions around anything which questions their delusionary authority or power....

    Application in the here and now is what I find useful, truth through testing and application, not through interpretations of crystal balls.
     
    #135 idea, Jul 3, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2021
  16. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The Genesis prophecy of the woman's seed is the first that makes a clear separation between God's righteous seed and the seed of sin (Satan's). In Galatians, Paul explains that the righteous seed of the woman (Mary) came at God's appointed time, when Jesus was born.

    The true seed of righteousness can only come from God, and is spiritual, but to dwell amongst men on earth the seed must also be human. Hence we have the extraordinary combination of an earthly woman (flesh) and a heavenly Father (Spirit).

    As it says in John 3, we do not see the source of the spirit, for God is the source. It is God who is able to bring about the miraculous conception in Mary, and it is God that is able to baptise with the Holy Spirit.

    These early prophecies (in Genesis) set the scene of expectation, to which later prophets add their revelations. Let's not also forget that 'types' as well as foretelling of events appear in scripture. For example, the story of Abraham taking Isaac to Mount Moriah as a potential sacrifice is also a picture of Father and Son (Jesus).

    To the sceptic, one very difficult prophecy to explain away is the foretelling of Christ's birth in Bethlehem, a relatively small town in Judea. The prophecy was made by Micah [5:2] roughly 700 years before the event.

    How do you explain such a prophecy? Jesus could not have manufactured his own birth, and two Gospels, Matthew and Luke, give the story. Bethlehem was also the birthplace of Jesse [1 Samuel 16], the father of David, whose name was forever linked to the town. It was here that the son of David, the Messiah, was to be born.
     
    #136 Redemptionsong, Jul 4, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2021
  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    False prophets and diviners can predict events, but this does not guarantee that the prophecy is of God. If you read Acts 16:16-18, you'll read about a woman whose soothsaying brought 'much gain' but Paul cast out the evil spirit although it was telling the truth.
     
    #137 Redemptionsong, Jul 4, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2021
  18. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    All this demonstrates is that you haven't read the Bible! Otherwise you would know the difference between prophecy and divination (crystal balls).

    Deuteronomy 18:10-12. 'There shall not be found amongst you any one that maketh his son or daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
    Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
    For all that do these things are an abomination to the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them [the nations] out from before thee.'
     
    #138 Redemptionsong, Jul 4, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2021
  19. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    Most people have not read it... I guess your God is not powerful enough to put it into the hands of all humanity... does not sound like a good teacher.
     
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  20. Jos

    Jos Well-Known Member

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    There's no such thing as perfect or imperfect. They're just concepts that don't actually exist.
     
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