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Was Jesus Perfect

ecco

Veteran Member
In reality, it's far more than just morality lessons, both in content and in how it has permeated Western culture and is the foundation for much of its ethos. Even modern atheists who reject theistic ideas using rational analysis, are in effect "Christians" culturally because of the invisible backdrop it plays culturally.

It's indeed lessons in morality. Man has learned to discard some of the morality lessons in scripture.

We now denounce slavery.
We now know it is wrong to give the virgin daughters of defeated enemies to the soldiers of the victorious army.
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Casting devils into pigs...

a) he listened and obeyed legion of devils, followed their bidding

b) tortured and killed innocent animals

c) destroyed property and livelihood of farmer

People in the town were angry at Jesus for good reason.

Now it is your turn, examples, or rationalization of Jesus acts.
You Lie about Jesus
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Yes, and my reply was not about religion, but about the alleged perfection of Christ. I listed a series of comments by Christ that I considered signs of imperfection.



Critical thinking and faith-based thinking are mutually exclusive. One can do one or the other, but to think critically, one must avoid faith-based steps anywhere in the chain of thought. Consider adding a long column of multi-digit numbers, the adding of which requires a series of simpler additions of small numbers according to the rules of rigorous logic. A critical thinker will tell you, for example, that 2 + 2 must always equal four.

But suppose one believes by faith that 2 + 2 can sometimes equal 5. He has no reason to believe that, but that's not he decides what is true about the world anyway, so it doesn't matter to him that he has no reason to believe that. He simply chooses to. And because he has chosen a different method for thinking, he will arrive somewhere other than the correct sum. The point is that reason is a straight and narrow road that one must learn to navigate through education and experience thinking critically, that one error derails the entire process, and that the two are not compatible. One instance of faith-based thinking in the logic chain and the conclusion (sum) will be incorrect.



I think you need to take them all if you want to defend the idea that Jesus was perfect. I listed about a dozen ethical lapses. Any one causes him to be imperfect.



That is incorrect. And a typical comment coming from a person who really doesn't understand critical thinking, the entire purpose of which is to arrive at truth. It rejects the faith-based thinkers definition of truth as anything he wants it to be and chooses to believe it is. I'd say that for the faith-based, there is no truth. He's the guy trying to add the column of numbers by faith, calling his wrong answers truth because they meet his meager requirements for truth. Mine are that whatever is claimed to be true be demonstrably true.

Faith cannot possibly be a path to truth, since by faith, one can call either of two mutually exclusive ideas true. That's not a path at all. A path directs and constrains further progress, keeps you going in the right direction. It leads to a chosen destination. Adding that column of numbers involves a path, a series of defined steps that we learned in grade school. Veer from it, and the truth (correctness) of the sum is lost. One is now off the reason reservation.

By way of illustration, consider that there are tens of thousands of denominations of Christianity alone, since none is constrained by reason applied to evidence. They have no path, no constraint on their creativity. There is, however, only one periodic table of the elements. If scientists used theologians' methods, there might be tens of thousands of periodic tables, at most one not useless. The difference is in the methods used to find truth, and even the definition of what that is.

The only way to find truth by faith is to make a lucky guess, and even then, you don't know that your guess is correct until something else like the passage time reveals it as such. Maybe your faith is so strong that you are sure that those lottery tickets contain the winning numbers. And there is a vanishingly small chance that you have guessed correctly. But you cannot know until after the numbers are drawn that you had chosen correctly.

With reason, we do much better, as we did adding the numbers and producing the periodic table. If no error has been made in the reasoning behind the engineering, we know before we send that manned probe to the moon when and where it will go.

That's what I mean by truth.

We know that reasoning is used in all human understanding, therefore critical thinking is involved in understanding the Bible. Many great thinkers have studied the Bible. Some great thinkers have believed and found faith. Others, with equally profound critical thinking abilities, have not found faith. We can say, therefore, that faith can be an addition to critical thinking. Many great scientists are also men/women of faith.

What, then, is faith? The book of Hebrews tells us 'Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.' It also says, 'But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.'

It could be argued, therefore, that the world of reason alone is a far narrower world than that of reason and faith. The man of reason and faith has openly acknowledged the existence of an unseen world of spirit, for God is Spirit.

Jesus was clearly a man of faith; would you also call him an irrational man?

I'm very happy to deal with each of the issues you raise about Jesus, because they can all be explained.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
What Final Exam? Many Christians believe that Jesus, God, and The Holy Ghost are One and have always been One. Therefore, the order would be...
First Jesus "My Father and I are one.
Then Jesus declared "I am the Son of God"
Finally Jesus said "I am a Messenger"
There is a huge difference between bookish knowledge and actual knowledge
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Casting devils into pigs...

a) he listened and obeyed legion of devils, followed their bidding

b) tortured and killed innocent animals

c) destroyed property and livelihood of farmer
....

a) I don’t think it can be said he obeyed them, he allowed them.

b) I have no evidence that they were innocent or tortured. But, they were killed. However, humans would have killed them anyway, so was there really any meaningful difference? But, I think it is ok, if you think no animals should be killed, even for food.

c) It can be said that it would not have been good for the health of the people to eat them and therefore it was actually service for them. Also, were you not against the killing of the “innocent” animals?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The story of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection should be interpreted by the reader, not some religious sect comprised and controlled by others. I have read and interpreted the story in the way that is most sensible, applicable, and valuable to me. You are free to interpret it according to your own criteria.
Actually, it's love and sacrifice that seem to go hand in hand more often than not.
That's not what I posted, though. To create beings that are able to reject love, and to actively counteract it, and then to punish them for doing so seems both petty and irrational, to me. And then, to demand the sacrifice of the one person that did NOT reject love, but lived up to it's expectation in every way, seems even more bizarre and absurd.

I understand that love requires the free will of the beloved. I do not understand the insistence on such a dire punishment for the exercise of that free will. That is not love. That's petty resentment. It's an interpretation of divine intention (God's will) that does not pass muster, morally or philosophically, for me.
And, "mankind is punished through that with which he sins" (from the Book of Wisdom in my old Catholic Bible). Meaning that we bring it on ourselves, by our own behavior. This I can understand, and accept. The only sacrifice required for our salvation (from ourselves) is that we stop rejecting love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity (that divine spirit within us). And begin living according to it's inspiration, like human beings, instead of dumb animals.

I accept this message and promise. I do not accept the message that God demands sacrifices to curry his forgiveness.
No, the original sin that underpins all other sins was mankind's desire, and presumption, to be God's equals. To presume unto ourselves the knowledge of good and evil as if we were gods, ourselves. Because when we do this, we then presume that we are the rightful judges of all we encounter, and that it's our place to "correct" everything according to our own desires. It is this grandiose and false presumption of our own divinity that underpins and inspires all our sins: against ourselves, against each other, and against the world.

The story of Adam and Eve in the garden is not a story of 'disobedience', it's a story of hubris, and of profound self-deception.
Yes, but that purpose was not to appease an otherwise unforgiving God. It was to show mankind that killing the messenger does not negate the validity of the message. Nor of the promise that message offers us.

If you cannot accept the original sin of Adam and Eve then the whole message of the Bible becomes skewed. Following Adam and Eve's sin, or disobedience, the Lord said to Adam, Where art thou? These were not words of fellowship, but words of alienation. Why should we believe that the children born to Adam and Eve, and indeed, all humanity, are born in fellowship with God? The whole process of redemption is unnecessary if humanity were never 'lost' in the first place. If the spirit within you is the Holy Spirit, then you have no need of the Comforter, promised by Jesus to his disciples.

The punishment for sin is a matter of justice. Jesus fulfilled the law, and in doing so he paid the price for Adam's disobedience. But since Jesus Christ came from God, the sacrifice was really God's sacrifice. Jesus, the man, gave himself to be God's sacrifice.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Everyone "leans to their own understanding". You chose your religious beliefs from your own understanding and your own opinions just as everyone else has.

One of my pet peeves, telling others "you are evil for leaning to your own understanding (rather than just leaning on my understanding). It is ALL someone's own understanding. No one is talking directly to God, nothing comes from God, it all comes from a bunch of people leaning on their own understanding.

I disagree. There would have been no point in sending the Holy Spirit if the 'new creation' is, as you suggest, no different from the old sinful man. Those born again of God's Spirit do have a direct knowledge of God's love, and an intimate knowledge of his Spirit.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
What Final Exam? Many Christians believe that Jesus, God, and The Holy Ghost are One and have always been One. Therefore, the order would be...
First Jesus "My Father and I are one.
Then Jesus declared "I am the Son of God"
Finally Jesus said "I am a Messenger"
There is a huge difference between bookish knowledge and actual knowledge

Then it should be easy for you to refute my points. You didn't. You just tried to show what you think is your intellectual superiority.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I said "IF"...."THEN"
You said...
IF there is a sin THEN its the ones killing Jesus, of course NOT Jesus being killed​

That reads: If there is any sin involved it is on the people doing the killing. It is not on the fact that Jesus was killed.

That doesn't negate what I said about Jesus not actually being killed, actually being dead. He wasn't.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Casting devils into pigs...

a) he listened and obeyed legion of devils, followed their bidding

b) tortured and killed innocent animals

c) destroyed property and livelihood of farmer

People in the town were angry at Jesus for good reason.

Now it is your turn, examples, or rationalization of Jesus acts.
Yes, there's that.

He also assaulted traders at the temple who were going about their legitimate and authorized business, tipped over their tables, made them flee.

He killed a tree that wouldn't fruit when he wanted it to.

He committed suicide.
 

Bree

Active Member
Casting devils into pigs...

a) he listened and obeyed legion of devils, followed their bidding

b) tortured and killed innocent animals

c) destroyed property and livelihood of farmer

People in the town were angry at Jesus for good reason.

Now it is your turn, examples, or rationalization of Jesus acts.

actually he saved the demon possessed man who had been imprisoned by the legion of demons who had possessed him.

Human life will always be more valuable then the lives of animals.
 

idea

Question Everything
What, then, is faith? The book of Hebrews tells us 'Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.'

Faith, and mis-placed faith. Far too many grasp at their mis-placed faith, and close their eyes to things that are in fact clearly seen.
 

idea

Question Everything
actually he saved the demon possessed man who had been imprisoned by the legion of demons who had possessed him.

Human life will always be more valuable then the lives of animals.

You are purposefully ignoring the second half of the account... He could have both cast them out of the person AND not allowed them into the innocent animals.

take a child molester from one person, then release them to abuse others.... this is what happened. removed from one, and then not kept in jail.
 

Bree

Active Member
You are purposefully ignoring the second half of the account... He could have both cast them out of the person AND not allowed them into the innocent animals.

take a child molester from one person, then release them to abuse others.... this is what happened. removed from one, and then not kept in jail.

thats not what happened.

Perhaps Jesus was using it as an opportunity for onlookers to learn and understand that the demons are going to end up dead.
 

idea

Question Everything
Yes, there's that.

He also assaulted traders at the temple who were going about their legitimate and authorized business, tipped over their tables, made them flee.

He killed a tree that wouldn't fruit when he wanted it to.

He committed suicide.

I have mixed feelings about the traders at the temple. I love the idea of taking away tax benefits from corrupt religious organizations, not allowing anyone to make a profit off of lies... I mean it is illegal to sell squirrel meat and tell everyone it is beef, right? So it should be illegal to pedal religious lies for money and call it tax-free charity...

It was a combination of suicide, and religious organizations who killed Jesus.

Let everyone remember - it was not atheists who wanted to kill Jesus, it was religious people who killed him.
 

idea

Question Everything
thats not what happened.

Perhaps Jesus was using it as an opportunity for onlookers to learn and understand that the demons are going to end up dead.

The innocent animals were the ones who ended up dead in this case, not the demons, they lived on to possess other creatures. ... hell is eternal, and devils never die according to most Christians.
 

idea

Question Everything
I disagree. There would have been no point in sending the Holy Spirit if the 'new creation' is, as you suggest, no different from the old sinful man. Those born again of God's Spirit do have a direct knowledge of God's love, and an intimate knowledge of his Spirit.

Let's see, the Holy spirit - do you refer to this? Yes, all religious people from all different faiths "feel they are called of the spirit". The wives of polygamous cults to people who are actually decent.... I know I know, those other people who claim "direct knowledge of God" were actually being led astray by devils, but you know the difference, and your spiritual experiences are genuine while theirs are not.... Yes, I have felt it before too, it is called elevation emotion, burning the bosun, it is a heard instinct thing, and everyone bonds to their group with these feelings.

"a distinct feeling of warmth and expansion that is accompanied by appreciation and affection for the ... group of people in your heard. - Elevation (emotion) - Wikipedia
 

idea

Question Everything
a) I don’t think it can be said he obeyed them, he allowed them.

b) I have no evidence that they were innocent or tortured. But, they were killed. However, humans would have killed them anyway, so was there really any meaningful difference? But, I think it is ok, if you think no animals should be killed, even for food.

c) It can be said that it would not have been good for the health of the people to eat them and therefore it was actually service for them. Also, were you not against the killing of the “innocent” animals?

I'm a vegetarian.... but that is beside the point.

Let's say your child was killed by someone who was allowed to go free.... would you be ok with whoever allowed them to go free? I suppose they went free because they pleaded their case, got sympathy - the devils make you feel sorry for them, an oft repeated repeat offender storyline... Is it a good story to propagate? Should we tell children Jesus had pity on the devils and we should too?
Jessica's Law - Wikipedia

Interesting to see everyone trying to come up with scenarios that excuse what is written in the Bible.... to excuse Jesus listening to and then caving in and allowing what the devils requested.... rather than just putting a line through it, accepting that everything in that book is not pure or loving or a good story for children.
 
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