Was Jesus a God or a man when He died?

[an anarchist]

The Quran says
4:157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Muslims say that Jesus Christ was not crucified. They also say He is not Lord (or rather, they take a monist view, in which all prophets are one with God)
The Baha’i faith teaches that the Quran is the direct repository of God.
The Baha’i faith accepts the crucifixion of Christ as they also accept the Christian gospels.
Is it possible for God to die? I don’t think so. The spirit of God left Jesus the man while He was on the cross, right? My God why have you forsaken me!
Jesus the man had the sin of all mankind on Him. It was not possible for a God, Jesus the Christ, to have a sinful spirit. So Jesus the man died.
The Quran verse I quoted says that it was made to appear that He was crucified, right?
So is Jesus the man a different character than Jesus the Christ? I think so. A God can’t die, right?
I’m trying to understand how the logic works in accepting both the Quran and the Bible

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Christ was always God, before He ever took on flesh. I don't think you can believe in both the Bible and the Qur'an as the Qur'an denounces various Biblical teachings, such as the crucifixion.

 

[an anarchist]

I don't think you can believe in both the Bible and the Qur'an

I think there must be the way simply because the Baha’is do this (if I’m not mistaken). I have a lot of reading to do so I’ll eventually see for myself how they come about to do this. I’ll admit though I’m not sure exactly how about to reconcile the two texts, I’m still very early in the Quran and the description of Jesus is already giving me challenges as a lifelong Christian.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think there must be the way simply because the Baha’is do this (if I’m not mistaken). I have a lot of reading to do so I’ll eventually see for myself how they come about to do this. I’ll admit though I’m not sure exactly how about to reconcile the two texts, I’m still very early in the Quran and the description of Jesus is already giving me challenges as a lifelong Christian.

Honestly, I don't think the Baha'is make it work. There's too many contradictions and they've been pointed out many times in debates on here and elsewhere.

 

[Regiomontanus]

The Quran says
4:157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Muslims say that Jesus Christ was not crucified. They also say He is not Lord (or rather, they take a monist view, in which all prophets are one with God)
The Baha’i faith teaches that the Quran is the direct repository of God.
The Baha’i faith accepts the crucifixion of Christ as they also accept the Christian gospels.
Is it possible for God to die? I don’t think so. The spirit of God left Jesus the man while He was on the cross, right? My God why have you forsaken me!
Jesus the man had the sin of all mankind on Him. It was not possible for a God, Jesus the Christ, to have a sinful spirit. So Jesus the man died.
The Quran verse I quoted says that it was made to appear that He was crucified, right?
So is Jesus the man a different character than Jesus the Christ? I think so. A God can’t die, right?
I’m trying to understand how the logic works in accepting both the Quran and the Bible

I don't know about a reconciliation with the the Quran, but as to the (orthodox) view of the Christ: Jesus Christ - OrthodoxWiki

 

[paarsurrey]

Was Jesus a God or a man when He died?

And when did Pauline-Christian-mythical-Jesusgod die, please?

Right?

Regards

 

[Nakosis]

The Quran says
4:157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Muslims say that Jesus Christ was not crucified. They also say He is not Lord (or rather, they take a monist view, in which all prophets are one with God)
The Baha’i faith teaches that the Quran is the direct repository of God.
The Baha’i faith accepts the crucifixion of Christ as they also accept the Christian gospels.
Is it possible for God to die? I don’t think so. The spirit of God left Jesus the man while He was on the cross, right? My God why have you forsaken me!
Jesus the man had the sin of all mankind on Him. It was not possible for a God, Jesus the Christ, to have a sinful spirit. So Jesus the man died.
The Quran verse I quoted says that it was made to appear that He was crucified, right?
So is Jesus the man a different character than Jesus the Christ? I think so. A God can’t die, right?
I’m trying to understand how the logic works in accepting both the Quran and the Bible

Baha’is believe that the account of the crucifixion as recounted in the New Testament is correct; and that the meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified—with no conflict between the two.
The Bible and the Qur’an, United

 

[paarsurrey]

Baha’is believe that the account of the crucifixion as recounted in the New Testament is correct; and that the meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified—with no conflict between the two.
The Bible and the Qur’an, United

And it has got nothing to do with Quran, I understand.
Right?

Regards

 

[an anarchist]

And it has got nothing to do with Quran, I understand.
Right?

Regards

In the quoted verse in the OP Q4:157 it says it appeared to them that He was crucified, right? Am I misunderstanding something, maybe something lost in translation?

 

[lukethethird]

The Quran says
4:157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Muslims say that Jesus Christ was not crucified. They also say He is not Lord (or rather, they take a monist view, in which all prophets are one with God)
The Baha’i faith teaches that the Quran is the direct repository of God.
The Baha’i faith accepts the crucifixion of Christ as they also accept the Christian gospels.
Is it possible for God to die? I don’t think so. The spirit of God left Jesus the man while He was on the cross, right? My God why have you forsaken me!
Jesus the man had the sin of all mankind on Him. It was not possible for a God, Jesus the Christ, to have a sinful spirit. So Jesus the man died.
The Quran verse I quoted says that it was made to appear that He was crucified, right?
So is Jesus the man a different character than Jesus the Christ? I think so. A God can’t die, right?
I’m trying to understand how the logic works in accepting both the Quran and the Bible

We can't accept both The Bible and Quran because they contradict one another and we can't accept either stories on their own because neither can be corroborated. It's not a problem though because fiction is like that.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

The Quran says
4:157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Muslims say that Jesus Christ was not crucified. They also say He is not Lord (or rather, they take a monist view, in which all prophets are one with God)
The Baha’i faith teaches that the Quran is the direct repository of God.
The Baha’i faith accepts the crucifixion of Christ as they also accept the Christian gospels.
Is it possible for God to die? I don’t think so. The spirit of God left Jesus the man while He was on the cross, right? My God why have you forsaken me!
Jesus the man had the sin of all mankind on Him. It was not possible for a God, Jesus the Christ, to have a sinful spirit. So Jesus the man died.
The Quran verse I quoted says that it was made to appear that He was crucified, right?
So is Jesus the man a different character than Jesus the Christ? I think so. A God can’t die, right?
I’m trying to understand how the logic works in accepting both the Quran and the Bible

That is an interesting question.

Not easy to answer here, due to its complexity.

So I will confuse the situation with a simple answer:

Neither and both.

imo

 

[Nakosis]

And it has got nothing to do with Quran, I understand.
Right?

Regards

Verse (4:157)Yusuf Ali: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Is this not from the Quran?

 

[Nakosis]

In the quoted verse in the OP Q4:157 it says it appeared to them that He was crucified, right? Am I misunderstanding something, maybe something lost in translation?

I think many Islamic sects see it traditionally as the Quran saying Jesus was never crucified.
I seems the Baha'i allow more poetic license.

I suppose the flesh can be destroyed by man but the spirit can not.

 

[an anarchist]

That is an interesting question.

Not easy to answer here, due to its complexity.

So I will confuse the situation with a simple answer:

Neither and both.

imo

 

[paarsurrey]

In the quoted verse in the OP Q4:157 it says it appeared to them that He was crucified, right? Am I misunderstanding something, maybe something lost in translation?

It means that Jesus was near-dead, please. Right?

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

The Quran says
4:157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Muslims say that Jesus Christ was not crucified. They also say He is not Lord (or rather, they take a monist view, in which all prophets are one with God)
The Baha’i faith teaches that the Quran is the direct repository of God.
The Baha’i faith accepts the crucifixion of Christ as they also accept the Christian gospels.
Is it possible for God to die? I don’t think so. The spirit of God left Jesus the man while He was on the cross, right? My God why have you forsaken me!
Jesus the man had the sin of all mankind on Him. It was not possible for a God, Jesus the Christ, to have a sinful spirit. So Jesus the man died.
The Quran verse I quoted says that it was made to appear that He was crucified, right?
So is Jesus the man a different character than Jesus the Christ? I think so. A God can’t die, right?
I’m trying to understand how the logic works in accepting both the Quran and the Bible

Regarding the crucifixion below is a post that was posted by adrian009 a few months ago in a debate with a Muslim. For the full context you can click on the link to the posts below.

No Baha’i has denounced the Quran as the inescapable reality for Baha’is are the Guardian’s words about the Quran.

The fact is there is no problem with the English translation of 4:157. The clear and obvious meaning is they thought they had crucified and killed Christ but they hadn’t (meaning they hadn’t crucified or killed the spirit of Christ). That is how some early Muslim commentators viewed and there are Muslims today that view it the same way.

I put it to you the only reason you see it so literally is that you have been conditioned by your upbringing and cultural experiences as a Muslim to view this verse so rigidly and dogmatically. How an outsider such as myself views the text is completely because I don’t live in a world where the verse is viewed literally. Quite the opposite.

From the text itself, both a literal and symbolic interpretation are valid. However the problem with a literal interpretation is the need to ignore a mountain of evidence that Jesus was crucified, then explain away that evidence with the use of preposterous substitutionary theories. The problem for Muslims who take this approach is glaringly obvious.

Here’s a few excerpts from Wikipedia that I referenced above:

Most Islamic traditions categorically deny that Jesus physically died on the cross or otherwise. Most traditions instead teach substitution, or the idea that another person was crucified in Jesus' place. However, some modern Muslim scholars believe that Jesus did indeed die, and references to his survival are symbolic, not literal. This disagreement on the nature of Jesus' death is found within the Islamic canon itself, with the earliest Hadith quoting the companions of Muhammad saying that Jesus had died. Meanwhile, the majority of subsequent Hadith and Tafsir argue in favor of the opposite.

So according to Wikipedia the belief Jesus wasn’t crucified is based on Hadiths, not the Quran.

Ja'far ibn Mansur al-Yaman (d. 958), Abu Hatim Ahmad ibn Hamdan al-Razi (d. 935), Abu Yaqub al-Sijistani (d. 971), Mu'ayyad fi'l-Din al-Shirazi (d. 1078) and the group Ikhwan al-Safa also affirm the historicity of the Crucifixion, reporting Jesus was crucified and not substituted by another man as maintained by many other popular Quranic commentators and Tafsir. More recently, Mahmoud M. Ayoub, a professor and scholar, provided a more symbolic interpretation for Surah 4 Verse 157:

The Quran, as we have already argued, does not deny the death of Christ. Rather, it challenges human beings who in their folly have deluded themselves into believing that they would vanquish the divine Word, Jesus Christ the Messenger of God. The death of Jesus is asserted several times and in various contexts. (3:55; 5:117; 19:33.)

Ayoub, instead of interpreting the passage as a denial of the death of Jesus, instead believes the passage is about God denying men the power to vanquish and destroy God's message. The words, "but they killed him not, nor crucified him." is meant to show that any power humans believe that they have against God is illusory.[82]

Some Islamic reformers, such as Muhammad Rashid Rida, agrees with contemporary commentators interpretation of the denial of Jesus' death as metaphorical.

An early interpretation of verse 3:55 (specifically "I will cause you to die and raise you to myself"), Al-Tabari (d. 923) records an interpretation attributed to Ibn 'Abbas, who used the literal "I will cause you to die" (mumayyitu-ka) in place of the metaphorical mutawaffi-ka "Jesus died", while Wahb ibn Munabbih, an early Jewish convert, is reported to have said "God caused Jesus, son of Mary, to die for three hours during the day, then took him up to himself." Tabari further transmits from Ibn Ishaq: "God caused Jesus to die for seven hours",while at another place reported that a person called Sergius was crucified in place of Jesus. Ibn-al-Athir forwarded the report that it was Judas, the betrayer, while also mentioning the possibility it was a man named Natlianus.

In reference to the Quranic quote "We have surely killed Jesus the Christ, son of Mary, the apostle of God", Muslim scholar Mahmoud Ayoub asserts this boast not as the repeating of a historical lie or the perpetuating of a false report, but an example of human arrogance and folly with an attitude of contempt towards God and His messenger(s). Ayoub furthers what modern scholars of Islam interpret regarding the historical death of Jesus, the man, as man's inability to kill off God's Word and the Spirit of God, which the Quran testifies were embodied in Jesus Christ. Ayoub continues highlighting the denial of the killing of Jesus as God denying men such power to vanquish and destroy the divine Word. The words, "they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him" speaks to the profound events of ephemeral human history, exposing mankind's heart and conscience towards God's will. The claim of humanity to have this power against God is illusory. "They did not slay him ...but it seemed so to them" speaks to the imaginations of mankind, not the denial of the actual event of Jesus dying physically on the cross.

Another report from Ibn Kathir quotes Ishaq Ibn Bishr, on authority of Idris, on authority of Wahb ibn Munabbih, that "God caused him to die for three days, then resurrected him, then raised him."[86][87]

Al-Masudi (d. 956) reported the death of Christ under Tiberius.[85]

Ibn Kathir (d. 1373) follows traditions which suggest that a crucifixion did occur, but not with Jesus.[88]After the event, Ibn Kathir reports the people were divided into three groups following three different narratives; The Jacobites believing "God remained with us as long as He willed and then He ascended to Heaven"; the Nestorians believing "The son of God was with us as long as he willed until God raised him to heaven"; and the Muslims believing "The servant and messenger of God, Jesus, remained with us as long as God willed until God raised him to Himself."[89]

Islamic reformer Muhammad Rashid Rida agrees with contemporary commentators interpreting the physical killing of Christ's apostleship as a metaphorical interpretation.

Jesus in Islam - Wikipedia

So you can say irrelevant, unbelievable and how the Baha’is have no arguments all you like. You can claim Baha’is are ignoring the obvious. In reality you are simply projecting your subjective beliefs and feelings onto others as far as I can see. It is of course your right and prerogative to believe as you do as it is my right to be a Baha’i, a right that has severe consequences for some Baha’is in some Muslim countries. I wish you well.

#96 adrian009

 

[DNB]

The Quran says
4:157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Muslims say that Jesus Christ was not crucified. They also say He is not Lord (or rather, they take a monist view, in which all prophets are one with God)
The Baha’i faith teaches that the Quran is the direct repository of God.
The Baha’i faith accepts the crucifixion of Christ as they also accept the Christian gospels.
Is it possible for God to die? I don’t think so. The spirit of God left Jesus the man while He was on the cross, right? My God why have you forsaken me!
Jesus the man had the sin of all mankind on Him. It was not possible for a God, Jesus the Christ, to have a sinful spirit. So Jesus the man died.
The Quran verse I quoted says that it was made to appear that He was crucified, right?
So is Jesus the man a different character than Jesus the Christ? I think so. A God can’t die, right?
I’m trying to understand how the logic works in accepting both the Quran and the Bible

To answer the initial question, was Jesus God or man when he died - you answered the question yourself, God cannot die! And, since when a man dies both his flesh and his soul are inanimate and cannot be vivified unless God intervenes, Jesus could not have been divine or his sacrifice and death was just a farce (a sacrifice is not a sacrifice if there is nothing to lose). And, just to emphasize, Jesus was neither God when he lived also!,

For, there is no such thing as a god-man, because every attribute that defines divinity, is antithetical to those that define humanity: one is infinite while the other is finite, one is immutable while the other never stays the same, one is transcendent and holy, while this other is secular and corruptible, one is omnipresent while the other is circumscribed in space and time, one is wise and infallible while the other is oblivious and unreliable, etc...

Why would one bother to attempt to harmonize both the Quran and the Bible? For all intents and purposes, they are two distinct and diametrically opposed religions, that for the major part of their histories have been at war with one another. Yes, Catholics and Protestants also, but that is because they too, are more different than they are the same.
Don't try to mix or syncretize two intentionally disparate religions, for Mohammed would've become a Christian if the two thoughts were compatible, but instead, he began a new religion.
There is no reconciliation between the two, if you try to do justice to both, you will end up disparaging each one, they were not meant to be symbiotic nor complementarian.

 

[an anarchist]

Why would one bother to attempt to harmonize both the Quran and the Bible? For all intents and purposes, they are two distinct and diametrically opposed religions, that for the major part of their histories have been at war with one another.

I suppose the reason why I’m attempting to harmonize the two is because I have it in my head that there are 2 billion Muslims and 2.5 billion Christians. It’s a scary thought to think that God is with one of these groups of people and not the other. I like to think that God is the God of most people, not just a few who actually “got it right”. I can very well be wrong about syncretism and may be committing blasphemy when I advocate to harmonize religions. I hope I’m not.
I blame the wars between Islam and Christianity on Statism. I think governments always corrupt religious teachings for their own benefits, e.g holy war

 

[Trailblazer]

I suppose the reason why I’m attempting to harmonize the two is because I have it in my head that there are 2 billion Muslims and 2.5 billion Christians. It’s a scary thought to think that God is with one of these groups of people and not the other. I like to think that God is the God of most people, not just a few who actually “got it right”. I can very well be wrong about syncretism and may be committing blasphemy when I advocate to harmonize religions. I hope I’m not.

The Bible and the Qur'an are different because what God revealed was different in different ages but that does not mean what they revealed cannot be reconciled and that they are not both true. Of course as you know the Baha'is believe that the Bible and the Qur'an are both true and when interpreted correctly they do not contradict each other.

 

[paarsurrey]

I suppose the reason why I’m attempting to harmonize the two is because I have it in my head that there are 2 billion Muslims and 2.5 billion Christians. It’s a scary thought to think that God is with one of these groups of people and not the other. I like to think that God is the God of most people, not just a few who actually “got it right”. I can very well be wrong about syncretism and may be committing blasphemy when I advocate to harmonize religions. I hope I’m not.
I blame the wars between Islam and Christianity on Statism. I think governments always corrupt religious teachings for their own benefits, e.g holy war

We Muslims love Jesus and Mary. Muhammad did not say anything against Jesus and or Mary. Did he, please?
Right?

Regards