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Featured Was Jesus a Christian ?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Limo, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. Limo

    Limo Active Member

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    From where do you understand that Jesus provided a way for who were not born Jewish ?
    From Gospels he said clearly that he was sent to the lost israiliets sheep and to support the law not to stop it or destroy it
    Somebidies else who stopped the law and preached amongst gentiles.
    They did and succeeded but for sure this is not Jesus and this is not his teachings at all.
     
  2. Kirran

    Kirran
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    I always understood most Muslim teachers say circumcision is recommended, rather than obligated.

    Also, @Limo, proselytising is not OK on RF. You're on thin ice here by this point.
     
  3. Limo

    Limo Active Member

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    First many churches and schoolers don't believe in this statement as authnticatd or said by Jesus at all especially it refers to the Trinity
    Second he didn't fails amongst Jews he has many followers
    Eventhough, is what is called Christianity and Jesus' Churches are following and practicing as him in light of the above questions?
     
  4. Tarheeler

    Tarheeler Argumentative Curmudgeon
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    Abraham was the first to enter into the Covenant through circumcision.
    The Jewish people existed prior to the establishment of the political states of Israel and Judah.
     
  5. Limo

    Limo Active Member

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    Although I as a Muslim don't believe in what you're saying but it's not even supported by Gospels
    What you're saying are just thoughts and ideas of churches leaders all over the history but not connected to Jesus
     
  6. Kirran

    Kirran
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    Different interpretations of the gospels, a Christian's views on what the NT is saying are easily as valid as a Muslim's.
     
  7. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member

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    First let me put down what Christianity (in general) believes. This is the Nicene Creed of course.

    We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.

    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father.
    Through him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
    he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
    and was made man.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered death and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again
    in accordance with the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.



    As seen from the Creed, Christians believe that there is only one Almighty God.
    We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.

    But the Three are connected, though only one is Almighty God

    Matthew 28:-
    18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”


    He obeyed some, altered some and abolished some. I do not know the Islamic law, so I cannot say. Jesus however strongly forbade divorce.

    Matthew 19
    3 Some Pharisees came to him, and to test him they asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?” 4 He answered, “Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?” 8 He said to them, “It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery.”

    Pretty sure Quran hews a different line on this one.

    Yes, since when he was a man o earth, the Law still remained and had not been fulfilled. After his death and resurrection, the Law was fulfilled and hence all its restrictions were abrogated, including circumcision.

    Matthew 5:17
    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.


    Luke 24
    44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you—that everything written about me in the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 46 and he said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Messiah is to suffer and to rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

    The Law, fulfilled by the death and resurrection of Jesus, contains only two commandments that are required to inherit eternal life,

    Luke 10
    25 Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” 27 He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

    Furthermore, no commandment was given regarding any other requirement for disciples of other nations, faith alone is sufficient for non-Jewish disciples.

    Matthew 15
    The Canaanite Woman’s Faith
    21 Jesus left that place and went away to the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came out and started shouting, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is tormented by a demon.” 23 But he did not answer her at all. And his disciples came and urged him, saying, “Send her away, for she keeps shouting after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” 26 He answered, “It is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the dogs.” 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “Woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed instantly.

    Conclusion:- Circumcision and other laws may stand for Jews and other descendants of Abraham but not for Gentile disciples of Jesus.

    Jesus clearly forbade praying in public in view of others. He said people should not stand and pray, but said nothing about praying postures. If he wanted to, he would have.

    Matthew 6
    Concerning Prayer
    5 “And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. 6 But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

    7 “When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

    9 “Pray then in this way:
    Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name.
    10 Your kingdom come.
    Your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.
    11 Give us this day our daily bread.
    12 And forgive us our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.
    13 And do not bring us to the time of trial,
    but rescue us from the evil one.

    Christians today appear to violate this commandment for reasons that are unclear to me. And it is completely contrary to public prayer commands of Muslims.

    Neither does the creed. Trinity is just the technical term for God, Jesus and Holy Spirit whose have different functions but are intimately connected. As was said by Jesus

    Matthew 28:-
    18 And Jesus came and said to them,
    “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

    Church is just a different term for Synagogue. He went to them, obviously, a lott

    Yep.

    He predicted it:-
    Mark 9
    30 They went on from there and passed through Galilee. He did not want anyone to know it; 31 for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, “The Son of Man is to be betrayed into human hands, and they will kill him, and three days after being killed, he will rise again.” 32 But they did not understand what he was saying and were afraid to ask him.

    And again
    Mark 10
    He took the twelve aside again and began to tell them what was to happen to him, 33 saying, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death; then they will hand him over to the Gentiles; 34 they will mock him, and spit upon him, and flog him, and kill him; and after three days he will rise again.”

    He told the followers to do it

    23 Then he said to them all, “If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will save it.

    Thus a devout Christian must keep the cross so that he has Jesus's suffering on it in mind constantly and the symbol serves like rosary beads for meditation.

    Continued below....
     
  8. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member

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    Continued....
    He is greater than Mary and hence does not pray to her. Mary should be viewed as the foremost of saints for being chosen by God to bear Jesus. Saints have powers as risen Jesus proclaims in Revelations. Many Christians connect the Woman of Revelations 12 with Mary, the once and future mother so as to speak.

    Revelations 12

    A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pangs, in the agony of giving birth. 3 Then another portent appeared in heaven: a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, so that he might devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne; 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, so that there she can be nourished for one thousand two hundred sixty days............................17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

    Yes.

    John 5

    24 Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life.

    Others
    19 Bible verses about Truly Truly

    Also the Spirit guarantees the authenticity of the writings of apostles

    John 16
    12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

    I do not know what you have in mind.

    Priests are the heirs of apostles and have the power, bequeathed to them by Jesus through the Holy Spirit

    John 20
    21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”


    Correct and it would be Christianity. Guess what? They know their book.


    Christians, feel free to correct me if any of my exegesis is incorrect. :)
     
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  9. Kirran

    Kirran
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    To save us time: the Nicene Creed won't be accepted, as it was laid down some while after Jesus' lifetime.
     
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  10. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member

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    Christians accept it. The challenge was if Christians beliefs match up with Jesus's words and deeds in the gospels. Nicene creed reflect what Christians believe about God, Jesus and the Spirit. Limo cannot now say Christians believe something different from the Nicene creed. Lets see how Limo gets out of this one. :D
     
  11. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the gospels do speak of a love from eternity between the Father and Son.

    John 17 17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

    Jesus, prayer near the start has "...glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed...." and near the end "...4 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world...."

    Glory with the Father from eternity past and love with the Father from eternity past spoken of in the gospels. John 17 is Jesus longest recorded prayer.
     
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  12. Kirran

    Kirran
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    1) Not all Christians accept the Nicene Creed. Historically there was Arian Christianity, and in the present day there are the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals etc.

    2) They'll probably say Christians ain't following Jesus.
     
  13. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    sayak83, I would say some people in cultural Christianity have a different gospel and a different Jesus and are cultural christians but not actual Christians with saving faith

    But Jesus said there would be 'wheat and tares' growing up with each other... and so that should be no surprise. Wheat is genuine, tares just looks allot like wheat at first.
     
  14. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member

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    Oh I know that. The OP stipulated that the 4 gospels are the ones to be relied on. Nicene creed comes from that. Not saying other views are not possible.
     
  15. Kirran

    Kirran
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    Assuming there are any things you don't know is beginning to strike me as unwise.

    But as far as I am aware, all the Nontrinitarian groups I mentioned base themselves on the same four gospels.

    I get a good impression of the Gospel of Thomas myself though :D
     
  16. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    The gospel of Thomas says women have to become men to be saved.... I would have to reject that as did the early church..

    The gospel of Thomas has frivolous miracles and I would have to reject it. Many scholars consider it part of the bitter fruits of the crusades where ia name of an apostle was slapped onto some claimed events.

    In the gospel of John and Luke/Acts neither John or Luke say themselves by name using humility, not so the so called extra gospels.... but the gospel of Peter takes the cake for a late forgery, the cross comes out of the tomb with an angel where the cross talks...
     
  17. Kirran

    Kirran
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    Yeah, I don't agree with everything in there. But that goes for the Upanishads too.

    Also, 'the early church' - which one? :)
     
  18. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    I would not consider arians part of the true church if that's what you mean

    and since you bring up Mormons... Joseph Smith believed God was married to a Mrs God and they used to be mormons on another planet long ago and became god... I would not consider that 'a view of the early church either'
     
  19. Kirran

    Kirran
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    Arians might not have considered the Nicenes as part of the true church either.

    Sure, OK, up to you. There are different views.

    Other interesting Christian groups, this time from the medieval period, include the Cathars and the Brethren of the Free Spirit.

    Also, you can click the 'Reply' button on the bottom right of the post you're responding to, and that makes it clearer who you're talking to and alerts them that you've replied to them.
     
  20. Limo

    Limo Active Member

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    Being a Christian means you live as Jesus did and wanted you to do.
    So Jesus is the example of good practice and belief
    So if there is a relegion called Christianity then Jesus should be the first
    Let us put the authontication of the books aside for the time being.
    How Jesus lived and his belief is the important topic.
    Regards
     
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