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Featured Was Jesus a Bodhisattva

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. Fool

    Fool Well-Known Member
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    due to kenosis was Jesus a bodhisattva?
     
  2. Tmac

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    And solving this is going to accomplish what? Are the words ascribed to him more or less?
     
  3. Fool

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    I don't know. Let's see where it goes; if it goes anywhere.


    Ask! Seek! Knock!! for an open mind.
     
  4. idav

    idav Being
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    Maybe. If he was then why did he quit? Jesus would just come back over and over again every few generations or so.
     
  5. Fool

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    maybe not, maybe they are coming but the others won't recognize them as the thief.

    John 15:26
    [ The Work of the Holy Spirit ] “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.


    love is a merciful love. it gives light, hope to those whose world has long been mostly darkness.

    love is such a strange and strong force that it compels some to return for those they love.

    God so loved the world.


    The world's producing law was Primal Mind, And next was First-born's out poured Chaos; And third, the soul received its law of toil: Encircl'd, therefore, with an acqueous form, With care o'erpowered it succumbs to death.

    Now holding sway, it eyes the light, And now it weeps on misery flung; Now it mourns, now it thrills with joy; Now it wails, now it hears its doom; Now it hears its doom, now it dies, And now it leaves us, never to return.

    It, hapless straying, treads the maze of ills.

    But Jesus said, Father, behold, A strife of ills across the earth Wanders from thy breath (of wrath); But bitter Chaos (man) seeks to shun, And knows not how to pass it through.

    On this account, O Father, send me; Bearing seals, I shall descend; Through ages whole I'll sweep, All mysteries I'll unravel, And forms of Gods I'll show; And secrets of the saintly path, Styled "Gnosis," I'll impart.
     
    #5 Fool, Nov 13, 2017
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  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Kenosis in Christian Theology would not be the same as Buddhist 'emptying the self' in Buddhism, The concept of Kenosis between contemporary Christian and Buddhist Beliefs represent to extremes. In Christianity it is directly associated with the physical Divine nature of Incarnation and the Trinity. In Buddhism it is self-emptying in the concept of Shunyata Do the Way of nothingness.

    In the Baha'i Faith they are the same, and common with all Manifestations of God. The attributes of emptiness and detachment from the worldly nature as the nature of Manifestation of God in the pure form the apophatic Divine essence.
     
  7. Fool

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    you're mistaken. no thingness is not a void in buddhism. it something that can't be defined, ie the conditional mind vs the unconditional


    my cup runneth over. the cup is never half full, or half empty. as one thing is emptied another fills it up. that is sunyata, that is kenosis

    jesus emptied himself of his ego. he overcame the illusion of separateness.
     
    #7 Fool, Nov 13, 2017
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  8. Saint Frankenstein

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    No. Why would you try to force another religion's concepts onto a religious figure. Jesus had nothing to do with Buddhism and there's no evidence he even heard of it.
     
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  9. Fool

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    ideas, concepts, aren't unique to a culture, a religion, a race, an ethnicity. languages are unique, symbols, et al.

    buddhism existed in the middle east prior to Jesus' birth. alexandria was a hot bed of cultural intermingling. abraham himself came from the east.


    buddhism had missionaries. that is how buddhism came to be elsewhere besides just the far east.

    some believe the tau crosses in ireland are buddhist. the tau is older version of the christian cross.


    iran and ireland both take there names from the same root as aryan.

    ireland is associated with the serpent kings; which at one time influenced the whole world.
     
    #9 Fool, Nov 13, 2017
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  10. Saint Frankenstein

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    Of course there's ideas and concepts unique to a religion otherwise they'd all be the same.
     
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  11. Fool

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    not necessarily, a belief system is influenced by the culture. the culture comes from the environment.

    the concept of a house in the tropics would not necessarily be formed the same as a house above the arctic circle, nor would they be called by the same name.


    people get hung up on forms at the expense of the action, the spirit of a thing. truth isn't a plurality. it may be expressed in innumerable forms but it doesn't act in another way. justice is blind to forms.
     
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  12. Saint Frankenstein

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    The point still stands that religions teach different things. You can only make it into some universalist jumble by stretching things.
     
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  13. Fool

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    OK

    IMO
    the golden rule and love aren't exclusive to any religion.

    christianity was heavily influenced by the east. we know abraham as coming from the east to the mid-east

    abraham = brahma
    sara = sarai
    hagar = ghaggar


    we also know the wise men came from the east, the book of revelation is heavily influenced by references to eastern churches, and finally the kings of the east.
     
    #13 Fool, Nov 13, 2017
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  14. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    In my opinion:
    Can't believe a pantheist is even questioning such a thing; if everything is God, then what are Buddha, Yeshua, Lao Tzu, etc made of?

    If they speak wisdom, where does this wisdom come from? So clearly God hasn't quit, it remains the same, emitting light into reality.
    Unfortunately using kenosis doesn't equate as Bodhisattva; because it is used in the Biblical context to supplement the sacrifice/death/murder of Christ as an emptying of one's self.

    Bodhisattva means bringing wisdom into being; thus Yeshua's teachings were from the realm of the Buddha/universal mind, and his knowledge shows someone who is Tathagata (gone beyond reality).

    Buddha is equated as an Avatar of Vishnu, and Yeshua to me is one of Shiva, with many interlinking Hindu concepts.

    Isaiah 52:10 speaks of Yeshuat Eloheinu, which has the roots Yeshua Elohim, being the one sent to fulfill the suffering servant prophecy...

    This if read as Yeshua is one of the Gods/Elohim/Avatars, it then means he was preexisting, and came back... As was the Buddha in terms of being an Avatar of Vishnu.

    We could say any Avatar who chooses to come down here, and empties one's self (kenosis) to take physical form, as it is very limiting in comparison to being universal consciousness...

    We could also say that they are Bodhisattva, and a Tathagata, as their knowledge on spiritual subjects enlightens, and their efforts to teach for their life is kenosis.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  15. Fool

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    suicide, even assisted suicide, is not a means to overcoming one's ego. it would break the first law of love.

    love and light destroys the illusion of ignorance and darkness. we can see the aspect of shiva in jesus by reference as a thief, trickster, devil that comes secretly and destructively of what someone might consider precious but is in fact mundane. he was destroying the belief system of the pharisees and sadducees, and to some extent their control and power over others. they didn't see him as loving. they saw him as a threat to their lives.

    love saves from suffering and sorrow. love is a changing thing, or uplifting thing. love is a creating thing. brahma, vishnu, and shiva are all one and the same but depending on how you view them they seem different.

    in greek and from revelation he is called apollyon; which is another name for destroyer. we see him stomping out the grapes of wrath in revelation. we see his wrath unleashed as well. the last avatar is kalki a warrior, again the same rider upon the white horse in revelation. the old has to die in order for the new to come because people become conditioned and complacent to familiar things and when this happens the form must change and they must evolve, like adam and eve. the furnace of love is a tempering thing. like hercules labor, or prometheus' compassion of giving fire to humans.

    anger is acceptable. jesus was angry at times. this is shiva personified.

    1 Corinthians 1:18
    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
     
  16. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    In my opinion:
    It wasn't suicide if others premeditated committing the crime, and you're in acknowledgment that is your destiny (Matthew 21:45-46).
    Thank you hadn't really questioned the aspects of the Destroyer being attributed to Shiva, and Yeshua's actions do seem that (Matthew 10:34).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  17. Fool

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    unfortunately when you're dealing with other people's idols and/or livelihoods they tend to become irate.

    plato addresses it in the allegory of the cave.


    [Socrates] And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the cave, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.
    [Glaucon] No question, he said.
     
    #17 Fool, Nov 13, 2017
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  18. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    In my opinion:
    Nothing irate about it, the text says he knew he was going to die; yet pleaded with God to remove the cup from him in the garden (Luke 22:42), suicide is willingly done....

    Fair enough if we take into account Christian ideology from John, Paul and Simon, we could be lead to believe 'that he laid his life down for his friends', and 'came down from Heaven being the image of God to sacrifice himself'... Yet none of that adds up properly.

    It doesn't bother me questioning all angles, yet like to deal with the facts of any religious case. ;)

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  19. Fool

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    you can't profit from what you can't control.


    true he knew. he'd already been threatened a number of times.


    Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

    6 They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger.

    27 Again they entered Jerusalem. As Jesus was walking through the Temple area, the leading priests, the teachers of religious law, and the elders came up to him. 28 They demanded, “By what authority are you doing all these things? Who gave you the right to do them?”

    12 The religious leaders wanted to arrest Jesus because they realized he was telling the story against them—they were the wicked farmers. But they were afraid of the crowd, so they left him and went away.

    For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.


    people with low self-esteem and/or narcissistic personality disorders don't think of themselves as capable of evil; especially those with anti-social personality disorders.
     
  20. shunyadragon

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    I never proposed that no thingness? was a void. In the view of the Baha'i Faith we are all mistaken if we try to define it, because the nature of Kenosis is unknown to humans

    That may describe one view from the human perspective, but I do not believe that is shunyata ultimately cannot be defined and is only known from the perspective of Buddha, Christ, Baha'u'llah or other Manifestations of God how it described in Christianity and the Baha'i Faith.

    That is the nature of the Manifestation of God. In contemporary Buddhism it is Self-emptying, from the Christian perspective it is the Divine nature of emptying.

    From the Baha'i perspective Kenosis can not be deined rom the human perspective.
     
    #20 shunyadragon, Nov 13, 2017
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