Was it just a Coincidece? What are the odds?

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

What is the supposed "coincidence"?

Yes I can see it would require one to consider the significance of the events.

Consider. There is a Biblical promise that Christ will return and that Christ had more to say unto us, it is foretold knowledge would increase.

There is a tradition in Islam that knowledge consists of 27 letters and that only 2 letters had been released, and that when the promise was fulfilled, the remaining 25 letters of knowledge would be released.

As such, an age of a rapid increase in knowledge was foretold, exactly as as happened since the mid 1800's.

The Bab was the dawn of both those promises and on the day after the Bab made that declaration, the first ever message that opened up this age of knowledge was "What has God Wrought".

Yet even more, the same night of that declaration of the Bab, who's purpose was to prepare the way for another Messenger, who would expand on the knowledge released by the Bab, the Son of that yet unknown future Messenger (Baha'u'llah) was Born. That Son (Abdul'baha) was destined to be the perfect example of that Knowledge and was destined to explain the capacity of that knowledge to all humanity.

Coincidence?

Regards Tony

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Also on the day that dawned after the evening of May 23rd 1844, in America, Samuel Morse had built a telegraph system from Washington, D.C., to Baltimore and on May 24, 1844, the first message was sent, “What hath God wrought?”


The Bab declared on the evening of May 23rd 1844. The purpose of the Message of the Bab was to prepare humanity for "One Whom God would make Manifest".

So? Why is that significant?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes I can see it would require one to consider the significance of the events.

Consider. There is a Biblical promise that Christ will return and that Christ had more to say unto us, it is foretold knowledge would increase.

There is a tradition in Islam that knowledge consists of 27 letters and that only 2 letters had been released, and that when the promise was fulfilled, the remaining 25 letters of knowledge would be released.

As such, an age of a rapid increase in knowledge was foretold, exactly as as happened since the mid 1800's.

??

So if I say that the cookiemonster told me that one day there will be a great storm with lots of rain while a large volcano is erupting and then a couple years later there is a great storm with lots of rain while a large volcano is erupting, does that make me a prophet from the cookiemonster? Especially when I'm being vague about the date?

This is the equivalent to me. It's a kind of "prophecy" that is pretty much inevitable to happen at some point.

Now, if I would also include an exact date and time and actually name the volcano and accurately predict the exact location of the storm as well as how much rain exactly is going to fall per square meter.... THEN you might have something.

But no prophecy EVER has dared to make such exact predictions. Or at least not succesfully.

So if this Bab dude really is a prophet from some god, then I'ld say that this was a missed opportunity.

The Bab was the dawn of both those promises and on the day after the Bab made that declaration, the first ever message that opened up this age of knowledge was "What has God Wrought".

That's a serious stretch. I'ld say the invention of the bookpress was much more significant in opening up the "age of knowledge", for example.

Yet even more, the same night of that declaration of the Bab, who's purpose was to prepare the way for another Messenger, who would expand on the knowledge released by the Bab, the Son of that yet unknown future Messenger (Baha'u'llah) was Born. That Son (Abdul'baha) was destined to be the perfect example of that Knowledge and was destined to explain the capacity of that knowledge to all humanity.

Coincidence?

How is that different from a guy who grows up to become a musical artist and who happened to be born the day that Elvis died, who then becomes delusional enough to claim that he is the reincarnation of Elvis?

I fail to see the significance of any of this.

All this is post-hoc stuff.
The same vaguery we see in every "prophecy" which is then post-hoc argued that that is what it was talking about.

Call me when an actual prediction is made that mentions specifics which can't be influenced or forced by human behavior (like with my volcano example).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So if this Bab dude really is a prophet from some god, then I'ld say that this was a missed opportunity.

No opportunity was missed by the Bab, nor any of His followers.

Regards Tony

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No opportunity was missed by the Bab, nor any of His followers.

Regards Tony

This is the equivalent of "na-huh!!!" in response to well-argued case.

Ow well. I didn't expect much else though.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Call me when an actual prediction is made that mentions specifics which can't be influenced or forced by human behavior (like with my volcano example).

Sorry you have missed the calls. Two Trumpet Blasts, the 2nd and 3rd Woe.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ow well. I didn't expect much else though.

Agreed, Regards Tony

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sorry you have missed the calls. Two Trumpet Blasts, the 2nd and 3rd Woe.

Regards Tony

I have not. There was no call. Just claiming there was, is not going to cut it.
The "prophecies" discussed in this thread are no different from those of Nostradamus or any other throughout history. Same vague stuff which is ALWAYS post-hoc matched to events through bare assertion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have not. There was no call. Just claiming there was, is not going to cut it.
The "prophecies" discussed in this thread are no different from those of Nostradamus or any other throughout history. Same vague stuff which is ALWAYS post-hoc matched to events through bare assertion.

Great, you have offered your view, I would offer one needs to look again.

That's all that needs to be said.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

There is a tradition in Islam that knowledge consists of 27 letters and that only 2 letters had been released, and that when the promise was fulfilled, the remaining 25 letters of knowledge would be released.

This would really contradict Baha'u'llah's claim of future Messengers after Baha'u'llah if it were an accurate fulfillment of the prophecy, because since all knowledge would have been released, there would be no knowledge for a new Messenger to release.

In other words Baha'u'llah didn't release all remaining knowledge by His own admission to more Messengers to come, so He didn't fulfill that Prophecy.

ETA in my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This would really contradict Baha'u'llah's claim of future Messengers after Baha'u'llah if it were an accurate fulfillment of the prophecy, because since all knowledge would have been released, there would be no knowledge for a new Messenger to release.

In other words Baha'u'llah didn't release all remaining knowledge by His own admission to more Messengers to come, so He didn't fulfill that Prophecy.

This has been explained in Great detail in the Baha'i Writings.

No need to repeat it here.

All the best Daniel. Regards Tony

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Great, you have offered your view, I would offer one needs to look again.

Looking again will not yield more information unless the original claims are edited with additional information.

 

[Trailblazer]

So? Why is that significant?

On May 24, 1844, after weeks of testing, Morse gathered a small group—reportedly in the Supreme Court chamber, but more likely in the committee room—to send the first message all the way to Baltimore. Morse tapped out the message suggested to him by Ellsworth's daughter Annie: “What Hath God Wrought.” Moments later an ...

First Telegraph Messages from the Capitol - Senate.gov

For the first transmissions, they used a quotation from the Bible, Numbers 23:23: "What hath God wrought," suggested by Annie G.

"What Hath God Wrought" Telegraph Message - National ...
https://americanhistory.si.edu › object › nmah_713485

It is significant to Baha'is because the Bab declared on the evening of May 23rd 1844. According to Baha'i beliefs, “What hath God wrought?” on May 24rd 1844 was sending the Bab to prepare humanity for "One Whom God would make Manifest", which was Baha'u'llah.

Baha'is believe that the declaration of the Bab opened the dawn of a new era in history, a new age, the likes of which humanity had never seen before.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Looking again will not yield more information unless the original claims are edited with additional information.

Yet you have already dismissed the information already given, so why would I need to add more, so that can be dismissed as well?

As this OP offered, there is a lot of events that all culminate around a Declaration made by Sayyed ʻAlí Muḥammad Shírází who became known as the Bab (Gate)

Thus can this event be more than a coincidence? When all these events are combined, with prophecy from past Holy Scriptures, Is the likelihood of this all being just a coincidence, mathematically calculated let's say 10 to the power of 58?

The Bible offers that in the age when knowledge is to increased, that the "Glory of the Lord" (Baha'u'llah) would come by the way of the "Gate" (Bab) from the East. The declaration was made in Shiraz, East of the holy land. The Shiraz 'Gate' (or Quran Gate) is where it all began, another coincidence?

Qur'an Gate - Wikipedia

Also in America William Miller, using Biblical Prophecy, had also determined that 1844 was the year that the promise was going to be fulfilled, another coincidence?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This supports the concept of knowledge being increased by the Declaration of the Bab in 1844, from the age of the Telegraph.

Indeed "What has God Wrought"?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Also on the day that dawned after the evening of May 23rd 1844, in America, Samuel Morse had built a telegraph system from Washington, D.C., to Baltimore and on May 24, 1844, the first message was sent, “What hath God wrought?”

The Bab declared on the evening of May 23rd 1844. The purpose of the Message of the Bab was to prepare humanity for "One Whom God would make Manifest".

I do not see any connection.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I was reflecting on how the Baha'i Faith started and had the thought that it raised a very compelling question. From the science perspective it would be the maths.

So the scenario is this.

The Bab declared on the evening of May 23rd 1844. The purpose of the Message of the Bab was to prepare humanity for "One Whom God would make Manifest".

On that same evening was born a male child that was destined to bury the remains of the Bab on Mount Carmel and head the faith started by the Bab.

The child was Abdul'baha, the son of Baha’u’llah, who in 1863 declared he was the one the Bab intended.

Also on the day that dawned after the evening of May 23rd 1844, in America, Samuel Morse had built a telegraph system from Washington, D.C., to Baltimore and on May 24, 1844, the first message was sent, “What hath God wrought?”

So, that is the most amazing coincidences, what would be the mathematical probability of such coincidences, that they are mere coincidences and not part of a intelligent plan?

View attachment 60231

Regards Tony

Are you sure that was the first and only time that he made the prediction? You would have to prove that for this to have any weight at all. If he predicted it before then it is just a big :"So what?"

 

[Subduction Zone]

This supports the concept of knowledge being increased by the Declaration of the Bab in 1844, from the age of the Telegraph.

Indeed "What has God Wrought"?

View attachment 62736

Nope, no correlation. You are now just reinterpreting works to match history. People can do that with all sorts of religious works.

You might want to check out the RationalWiki article on Biblical prophecies. For the same reason that biblical prophecies fail, so do the prophecies of your religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nope, no correlation. You are now just reinterpreting works to match history. People can do that with all sorts of religious works.

No, only the Baha'i Faith has the dates that match history.
#33 Trailblazer

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are you sure that was the first and only time that he made the prediction? You would have to prove that for this to have any weight at all. If he predicted it before then it is just a big :"So what?"

Do you mean the declaration, that he was the promise of the Bible?

If so, Yes it was the First time the Bab made that declaration.

This is also significant as it is recorded the Declaration was dependent on the first Disciple finding the Bab.

This process began back at the start of the 1800's

The requirement that had already been set was that 18 disciples had to find the Bab, independently before the declaration could be made known. The first Beleiver was Mulla Husayn, he has left us that story, the 18th was Tahirih (Famous Persian Poetess), who never met the Bab in person, but met him in her dreams.

Regards Tony