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Was it Jesus' fault?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by t3gah, Jan 27, 2005.

  1. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    In the beginning God created all things or so the account in Genesis states. But in the bible book of Proverbs & John, Jesus states that he was in the beginning with God and Jesus was the one God was most found of. God created all things through Jesus to be and for Jesus.

    Nothing on this earth, nature and mankind, seem to be perfect and that's right, because they aren't.

    Jesus went through hell to redeem the world or so the bible says, and people marvel at this, but since Jesus knew he was going to be resurrected, the burden of being tortured and then killed was inconsequential to him because he was a ringer and he knew it.

    An entity with perfect will is incapable of making mistakes. Jesus proved that because he didn't make any mistakes. Everything besides God and Jesus made mistakes including other angels.

    There was no predestination is what many say, but God knew that everything was going to go bad before he created anything. Everything that was created through Jesus apparently went bad. So if Satan or whatever his name is, failed to live up to his "perfection" along with Eve and Adam, then the world going bad is Jesus' fault. Jesus was sent to earth to clean up the mess he started, that's a fact and that's why he came. The apostles and disciples were confused and blinded from being chosen when they wrote the accounts and their comments of advice were also skewed, etc. Jesus was all knowing apparently because he knew what was broken because he made it all! Blame Jesus, not God next time, when you see the horrors of the world.

    Let us make man in our image...
    Let us confuse their language....

    Reference scriptures:

    Genesis 1:1; Genesis 1:26,27; Genesis 9:6; Genesis 11:7; Proverbs 8:22-31; John 1:1-5; John 17:5-10; Colossians 1:13-20; 1 Corinthians 8:5,6; 1 Corinthians 11:7-10


    I rest my case.
     
  2. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Alex what is your case and is Satan in it or not? I am lost as to the idea you are attempting to convey and am looking for clarification.
     
  3. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Yo t3gah!

    Love demands a free will decision.

    God wants people to love him as he loves us.

    That can't happen if he FORCES us to love him.

    Love is always worth the sacrifice.
     
  4. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    Satan and the angels? they're just a cog is this whole messed up Jesus creation mechanism. Just like Eve, Adam and the rest of the 'human race', Jesus excluded.

    The scriptures state that satan, eve, adam and the true sons of god for nephilim times all were perfect but 'forgot their places' or 'disobeyed'. All angels are said to be perfect. God is said to be perfect. Jesus is said to be perfect.

    But then, Jesus states that the world being the way it is is because of satan in the garden. And still further, Paul blames eve in another scripture.

    Jesus was a perfect man according to scriptures and did not forget his place nor did he disobey when on earth. Which means only Jesus and God are perfect because God didn't make any mistakes creating Jesus. It seems that only what was made after Jesus was born is going haywire.

    Jesus said everything was made through him. Design changed when the task switched from God the maker to God the maker and Jesus the helper or co-maker or other.

    But then God didn't make any mistakes making Jesus, so John 1:1- * must be talking about Jesus being God creating things which are all fouled up. Jesus blew the design/creation phase of the things he made. It's Jesus' fault the world is like this. IT can't be God's fault because Jesus didn't make mistakes when he was on earth.

    So you can't have all in the scriptures. IF Jesus, while a human on earth had free will and was perfect didn't disobey or forget his place is a tell of perfection, then the first humans and all the remaining angels are imperfect. Which also means that Jesus made sure that those who wrote the scriptures were sufficiently brainwashed into believing the older scriptures that shift the blame from the son of god to an angel, eve & adam.

    Big conspiracy biblical proportion style. This also explains why God doesn't do all of the investigating in the in the scriptures. The accounts seem to vary on who goes down to do what. Maybe the scriptures are saying the Jesus really is God and that the translations that have God as number one is wrong or reversed.

    The tree in the garden was a trap. God knew that was going to happen. God and Jesus are partners in crime, but Jesus pulled the trigger.
     
  5. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Should I cue the Simon LeGree music???
     
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  6. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    plural of majesty...
     
  7. Pilgrim of this Reality

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    I understand the logic involved in this discussion. However, it is possible (a what if scenerio) that man would have sinned without Satan's intervention simply because of free will. Satan sinned himself and was cast from heaven because he chose to. He didnt (as far as we know) have any outside influence. He just had free will. Man was created with free will and its logical to surmise that one day one of them would have decided to push the limits. The arguement of how heavenly the garden was wouldn't suffice because they didnt know any alternative and being in heaven didnt stop Satan for deciding to sin.
     
  8. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    First...
    the "us" referred to in the verses in Genesis is either 1) a royal "We" that HaShem was using or 2) Targum Yonasan and the Midrash say that HaShem is speaking to the Ministering Angels.
    Secondly,
    Proverbs 8:22-31 is talking about the Torah "G-d created the Torah before the universe; it is manifest in Creation, preserves the world, and is a guide to all mankind" - Maimonides (Rambam)
     
  9. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    So then, what you are saying is that Jesus is a liar because when he was in the garden he was distressed over God's need for the sacrifice? Give me a break. Jesus was a man, who suffered the PAIN fo death in the worst way imaginable. And to top it all off, he did this KNOWING, that he had the power to stop it. He LET them take his life, so that all who call on His name can be saved. And yet you have the nerve to mock his sacrifice? Unbelievable. Just because you don't believe, doesn't mean you have to belittle those of us who do, or the One we believe in.

    Well, I submit to you that the only thing in this world that isn't perfect is man. Man is the one that sinned, going against God's command. Man is reason perfection was lost, and Jesus is the reason perfection can be gained again.

    I think you are confused as to the nature of the Trinity. God didn't create Jesus. Jesus is God, so is the Holy Spirit and so is God the Father. They are all in one. John 1:1 also says that nothing was made possible without the Word (Jesus). So in the beginning all three of them were there and they all were responsible for the creation of all life. To try to seperate them out is Biblically incorrect, and I think the source of your confucion.
     
  10. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    How can your view of a perfect Jesus be. If he made a mistake and had to correct it?
    Knowing and causing, are horses of a different color. Creating a remedy for my bad choice is perfection. Y H V H is Perfection.

    Being close, don't count!
     
  11. djFiddles

    djFiddles Member

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    As mentioned, Satan sinned on his own - no outside influence is mentioned or hinted. His rebellion gained him eternal damnation (damnation = death = seperation from God). There also seems to be no salvation plan for Satan and other fallen angels. That is because they were in the literal physical presence of God; they were face to face with their Creator and decidedly looked to themselves for strength forsaking what God had given. That is the big difference between man and angels. We have not seen God, we have a faith and hope in our salvation. We will have the same end as the fallen angels if we neglect God in His presence.

    In response to Jesus being the root of all evil (or at least responsible for it), you must understand that nobody, not even God, can "create" evil. Evil is simply the absence of Good, specifically God. When Satan originally sought his own strength to be God's equal (the original sin), he brought evil into "existence." A parable of this thought is heat and cold. We cannot measure cold, only heat. Cold is merely the absence of heat. After Satan did this in Heaven, he wanted to bring mankind, God's prize jewel of creation, down. Only after Adam and Eve had the knowledge of good and evil were they able to sin on a regular basis. Satan lied to them and fooled them into thinking it was good (again, that they would be like God - the "original sin"). So to find who is "responsible" for sin and evil in the world, we need only look to those who do not excercise God's will, power, presence etc all the time. I think we all know who that is.

    Why does God create people when He knows we will rebel and some will choose the path of death and damnation? The same reason any of us have kids. I am not a father yet, but I plan to marry and then have a few kids. I am not without knowledge that my kids will rebel, scream at me, poop their pants, not eat their peas, skip their chores, play too many video games, maybe even say they hate me. My kids may even end up doing drugs or make me a grandparent before they are out of high school. Most people understand that children rebel without exception - in fact for anyone who does not see this is quite ignorant and even probably stupid. Kids rebel and that is what happens when we do not FORCE them to do what we want them to do (a love based free will). But even looking towards all of that, I still want to have kids. Many people in the world still long to have kids even with this nightmarish forboding. God knows that we will spit in His face, sin against Him and do evil. He also knows that we might turn to Him for repentance, guidance and salvation. I "know" the future of my children and I look forward to taking care of them someday; God knows the future of His kids and He looks forward to taking care of them also.

    Was Jesus' sacrifice meaningless? Was it easy for Him to turn the other cheek, die and humiliating painful death, crawl through Hell without His Father, even become a man? Think about it, what was the first sacrifice of Christ? On the cross?? I don't think so, actually. It was when God became a man. God becoming a man was simply horrific for the Heavenly society. It's called the humiliation of Christ. Yes, Jesus has been around since the Holy Spirit and the Father (forever, no beginning - they are One) but the Son found it appropriate and necessary to become a man and mingle with those who have been cursing God for millenia. Imagine the crying that took place in Heaven when the King of the angels was leaving His throne to become that which was the problem with the universe, instead of just annhilating them. And Jesus did not stop at simply becoming a man to tell people about God; He became friends with them, He lived with them, He taught them, and to top it all off, He accepted the sin, guilt, damnation of us all. Not only did He endure the physical floggings, mockery, beatings, thorn crown and ultimately the cross; He endured the spiritual torment of all of us. All our sins were cast upon Him. Little is said about what happened after His death and before His resurrection, but I imagine quite a fight going on in Hell - Jesus kicking the trash out of Satan, stealing the gate keys to setting the prisoners free.

    Jesus is no bad guy, conspirator or otherwise. Jesus is the Hero all our hearts are trying to find, even if we don't quite realize it.
     
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  12. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    You gotta admit that Jesus dying and ascending back to heaven wasn't the first time someone from that realm dematerialized their human body, discarded it or whatever and then went back to heaven in their spirit bodies. In Noah's day the true sons of God did this when they came down and fornicated with earth women, the flood came and those bad angels (sons) tossed away their bodies and rose back to heaven.

    What Jesus did was no skin off of his back really. He knew he was going to die. He knew his pain would only be temporary. He knew he would no longer have the body that had holes in it because it was going to be discarded. That means what he did, suffering in human terms and dying in human terms only means something to us humans since Jesus is an immortal spirit who was in the beginning with God, all things were created through Jesus (the Word), which got fouled up when the wheels fell off through angels disobeying and Eve and Adam disobeying along with the rest of the seemlingly faithful worshipers of the only true God.

    And as a note, I am a believer. I'm not belittling anyone. The scriptures state many facts that point to one culprit in the worldly mess. Since all things were created through Jesus and for Jesus that means Jesus is the head person in charge.

    So was it Jesus' fault? Yep.
     
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