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Was Islam spread by the sword?

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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Like a broken record he just bounces back and back and back and back and back...
Though the most funny part of this Thread is the silent switch from "peaceful spread of Islam in country X" to "peaceful spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam in country X".
But I am still not sure if the User in question actually believes that he fooled everyone.
PS: For the younger ones who don't know what a record is, this is a record.
45rpm.jpg


You put it into your Walkman.

I don't use a Walkman.
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Was Islam spread by the sword?
No.
For example:
Spread of Islam in Chile: [1]

The statistics for Islam in Chile estimate a total Muslim population of approximately 4,000, representing less than 0.1% of the population.[1] There are a number of Islamic organizations in Chile, including the "Muslim Society of Chile and As-Salam Mosque" (Spanish: Sociedad Musulmana de Chile y Mezquita As-Salam) in Santiago, Chile, "Bilal Mosque"(Mezquita Bilal) in Iquique, and the "Mohammed VI Cultural Center" (Centro Cultural Mohammed VI) in Coquimbo, the Community Islam Sunni Chile (Comunidad Islam Sunni Chile) and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community Chile, which was established in 2011,[2]
200px-Mezquita_de_Coquimbo1.jpg

A mosque in Coquimbo.

History[edit]

According to Chronicles of the History of Chile by Aurelio Díaz Meza, there was a man in the expedition of discoverer Diego de Almagro, called Pedro de Gasco who was a morisco, or Muslim from Spain who was forced to convert from Islam to Catholicism. The coming of moriscos was covered by history but, recently scholars of Chilean history have started acknowledging the country's Moorish heritage and its effects on the development of Chilean culture and identity.

It is known that in 1854 two “Turks” resided in the country, a situation that was repeated in the censuses of 1865 and 1875. Their country of origin is not known, just that they were natives of some territory of the immense Ottoman Empire, and this was followed two years later by the first major wave of Muslims to Chile began in 1856, with the arrival of Arab immigrants from theOttoman Empire territories consisting of today's Syria, Lebanon and Palestine.

According to the 1885 census, the number of “Turks” had risen to 29, but there is no precise information on their origin and their faith, since religion was not included in that census. However, the census of 1895 registered the presence of 76 “Turks”, 58 of them Muslims, who were primarily concentrated in the north of Chile in Tarapacá, Atacama, Valparaiso, and Santiago. In the census of 1907, the Muslim population was reported to have increased to 1,498 people, all of them foreigners. They were 1,183 men and 315 women, representing only 0.04 percent of the population, although this was recorded as the highest percentage of Muslims in Chile’s history.[3] In 1920 a new census showed that the number of Muslims had decreased to 402, with 343 men and 59 women. The greatest numbers were in Santiago and Antofagasta, with 76 in each province. The latest census figures from 2002 found a total of 2,894 Muslims living in Chile (0.03% of the population over 15), 66% of whom were men. The previous census of 1992 did not include Islam as an alternative.

In Santiago, the first Islamic institution of Chile, the Society of Muslim Union of Chile (Sociedad Unión Musulmana), was founded on 25 September 1926. Later, on 16 October 1927, the Society of Mutual Aids and Islamic Charity was established. With the 1952 census, the number of Muslims had risen again to 956. The majority lived in Santiago, with the rest of the population scattered in the provinces of Antofagasta, Coquimbo, Valparaíso, O'Higgins, Concepción, Malleco, Cautín and Valdivia, without much organization among them. Their numbers decreased again, so that by 1960 there were only 522, with the majority of 209 living in Santiago. A decade later, the number of Muslims had increased to 1,431. However, the census did not indicate whether they were men or women, nationals or foreigners. Nevertheless, they were spread throughout the country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Chile

Country/Region: Chile
Muslim population 2010 Pew Report[1]:4,000
Muslim percentage (%) of total population 2010 Pew Report[1] :< 0.1
Percentage (%) of World Muslim population 2010 Pew Report[1] :< 0.1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Chile . Do you see any?

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Mestemia said:
In Post #2682
What does the Koran say about cars?
What does the Koran say about cloning?
What does the Koran say about medicine?
other than camel urine is a magical cure all...
paarsurrey said:
Are you against animals? Camel is an innocent animal. Isn't it? Please

Paarsurrey says:
This innocent animal (camel) which was called the ship of the desert in Arabia, was to be a sign, among many others, as mentioned in Quran in Post #2833 and Hadith Post #2854and illustrated further in #2910, #2962.
Not only the camel but a sort of a donkey was also incidentally mentioned, that was to appear at End of Days or the time of truthful Jesus' Second Coming in Hadith of truthful Muhammad, and one would be certainly interested knowing about it, I must say.
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_6_section_2.html
Muhammad prophesied about the present times with great signs that would appear on the sky and on the earth , and they have appeared exactly, at the end of times but he was wise to do it in a symbolic way that the audience of Muhammad's time could understand it better also.
So, Muhammad prophesied about new modes of communication that would be invented with the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 to change the scenario of the world to make the spread of his message with convenience to the corners of the Earth:
I will convey thy message to reach the ends of the Earth
— 1 February 1886[27]
God told Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in 1886.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecies_of_Mirza_Ghulam_Ahmad#Reaching_Corners_of_Earth

Regards
 
Last edited:

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Mestemia said:
In Post #2682
What does the Koran say about cars?
What does the Koran say about cloning?
What does the Koran say about medicine?
other than camel urine is a magical cure all...
paarsurrey said:
Are you against animals? Camel is an innocent animal. Isn't it? Please

Paarsurrey says:
This innocent animal (camel) which was called the ship of the desert in Arabia, was to be a sign, among many others, as mentioned in Quran in Post #2833 and Hadith Post #2854and illustrated further in #2910, #2962.
Not only the camel but a sort of a donkey was also incidentally mentioned, that was to appear at End of Days or the time of truthful Jesus' Second Coming in Hadith of truthful Muhammad, and one would be certainly interested knowing about it, I must say.
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_6_section_2.html
Muhammad prophesied about the present times with great signs that would appear on the sky and on the earth , and they have appeared exactly, at the end of times but he was wise to do it in a symbolic way that the audience of Muhammad's time could understand it better also.
So, Muhammad prophesied about new modes of communication that would be invented with the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 to change the scenario of the world to make the spread of his message with convenience to the corners of the Earth:
I will convey thy message to reach the ends of the Earth
— 1 February 1886[27]
God told Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in 1886.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecies_of_Mirza_Ghulam_Ahmad#Reaching_Corners_of_Earth

Regards
Sad really, that you have not yet convinced yourself of this nonsense.....

So when are you going to address the point of that post of mine?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Further to Posts #2717, #2720 , #2722, and #2942 in response to OP's Post #1 I have to add:
Those who doubt that Islam spread peacefully in times of Muhammad they should focus on spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam, If it has happened now peacefully, it should be a clear sign for the doubtful that Islam spread peacefully in times of Muhammad.
I gave how Ahmadiyya spread peacefully in Argentina post #2430, Australia Post #2460 , Austria Post #2489, Bangladesh Post #2513, Belarus Post #2535, Belgium Post#2556, Belize #2571, Bulgaria Post #2595, Cameroon Post #2619, Canada Post #2636,Chad Post #2651,Congo #2672, Denmark #2703, Egypt #2824, Fiji #2883, France #2942 .
  • Now I give peaceful spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam in
    23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
    Germany.
    [2]
New Ahmadiyya Mosque opened in Aachen, Germany by Head of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
upload_2016-1-4_12-41-13.png

Marcel Philipp, Lord Mayor of Aachen said:
“By building this Mosque, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community affirms its desire to build a home in Aachen and to be a permanent part of our society. I would thus like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community on behalf of the city.”​
Referring to an Ahmadi Muslim well known throughout the local community as the owner of a flower shop in the city centre of Aachen, His Holiness Mirza Masroor Ahmad said that his shop was a symbol of how Ahmadi Muslims spread peace and goodness in their societies.
“Whilst physical flowers die away after a few days and lose their fragrance, the spiritual flowers presented by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community are everlasting.”
“These spiritual flowers (i.e. building a mosque in Aachen), consisting of the highest moral values, will forever be remembered and appreciated by nations and their people. This is the gift presented by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community to the world whose fragrance will prove eternal.”​
http://www.khalifaofislam.com/press...ermany-by-head-of-ahmadiyya-muslim-community/

Country/Region:
23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
Germany.
Ahmadiyya population : 50,000
Percentage (%) of Muslims :1.2
Percentage (%) of population :< 0.1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_by_country

Does one see any sword used for spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam in
23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
Germany ?

Regards
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
Further to Posts #2717, #2720 , #2722, and #2942 in response to OP's Post #1 I have to add:
Those who doubt that Islam spread peacefully in times of Muhammad they should focus on spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam, If it has happened now peacefully, it should be a clear sign for the doubtful that Islam spread peacefully in times of Muhammad.
I gave how Ahmadiyya spread peacefully in Argentina post #2430, Australia Post #2460 , Austria Post #2489, Bangladesh Post #2513, Belarus Post #2535, Belgium Post#2556, Belize #2571, Bulgaria Post #2595, Cameroon Post #2619, Canada Post #2636,Chad Post #2651,Congo #2672, Denmark #2703, Egypt #2824, Fiji #2883, France #2942 .
  • Now I give peaceful spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam in
    23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
    Germany.
    [2]
New Ahmadiyya Mosque opened in Aachen, Germany by Head of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
View attachment 11747
Marcel Philipp, Lord Mayor of Aachen said:
“By building this Mosque, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community affirms its desire to build a home in Aachen and to be a permanent part of our society. I would thus like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community on behalf of the city.”​
Referring to an Ahmadi Muslim well known throughout the local community as the owner of a flower shop in the city centre of Aachen, His Holiness Mirza Masroor Ahmad said that his shop was a symbol of how Ahmadi Muslims spread peace and goodness in their societies.
“Whilst physical flowers die away after a few days and lose their fragrance, the spiritual flowers presented by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community are everlasting.”
“These spiritual flowers (i.e. building a mosque in Aachen), consisting of the highest moral values, will forever be remembered and appreciated by nations and their people. This is the gift presented by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community to the world whose fragrance will prove eternal.”​
http://www.khalifaofislam.com/press...ermany-by-head-of-ahmadiyya-muslim-community/

Country/Region:
23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
Germany.
Ahmadiyya population : 50,000
Percentage (%) of Muslims :1.2
Percentage (%) of population :< 0.1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_by_country

Does one see any sword used for spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam in
23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
Germany ?

Regards

This is irrelevant. Muhammad was a warlord. Its well supported and self admitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad

Here's a list of 100 examples of military expeditions. Enjoy
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Those who doubt that Islam spread peacefully in times of Muhammad they should focus on spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam, If it has happened now peacefully, it should be a clear sign for the doubtful that Islam spread peacefully in times of Muhammad.

Ahmadiyya didn't exist in Muhammad's time, so what you telling us is that you are attempting to re-write history.

Second, Islam wasn't peaceful in Muhammad's time. He started conflicts and wars, and was even involved with slave trades. By getting into politics, he made number of judgments that caused resentments. All of this, speak volumes that Muhammad was not a prophet for peace.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Ahmadiyya didn't exist in Muhammad's time, so what you telling us is that you are attempting to re-write history.
Second, Islam wasn't peaceful in Muhammad's time. He started conflicts and wars, and was even involved with slave trades. By getting into politics, he made number of judgments that caused resentments. All of this, speak volumes that Muhammad was not a prophet for peace.
We Ahmadiyya never claim that we are rewriting history.
It is a wrong notion that Islam was not peaceful. Muhammad was Defender of his Faith, and everybody has a right to defend his right. Please
Regards
 

cambridge79

Active Member
We Ahmadiyya never claim that we are rewriting history.
It is a wrong notion that Islam was not peaceful. Muhammad was Defender of his Faith, and everybody has a right to defend his right. Please
Regards
How can one be at the same time the defender and the one who is challenging the establishment?
 

cambridge79

Active Member
I don't get you. Please elaborate.
Regards

you say muhammad was a defender. To be a defender there must be someone attacking you.

but actually muhammad was the one who was trying to change the society, that was pagan till that point, so he was an attacker in that sense, cause he was challenging and trying to turn upside down the establishment that was already there and that has been there probably for thousands of years..
so you say muhammad was defending himself while in fact those pagan people were the one defending themselves from muhammad.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
you say muhammad was a defender. To be a defender there must be someone attacking you.
but actually muhammad was the one who was trying to change the society, that was pagan till that point, so he was an attacker in that sense, cause he was challenging and trying to turn upside down the establishment that was already there and that has been there probably for thousands of years..
so you say muhammad was defending himself while in fact those pagan people were the one defending themselves from muhammad.
The Meccans were not pagans, they were descendants of Abraham, who believed in one G-d, from his elder son Ishmael and were believers in Allah. Sorry, you are wrong. Please
Regards
 

Kirran

Premium Member
The Meccans were not pagans, they were descendants of Abraham, who believed in one G-d, from his elder son Ishmael and were believers in Allah. Sorry, you are wrong. Please
Regards

They did have quite a lot of statues of deities which they worshipped.

It seems they were a form of henotheist - they believed in One High God, called Allah or Rahman, who was inaccessible to our worship and beyond us to the extent of not being involved in our lives, and then a host of lower level gods, highest among them Allah's three daughters inc. Uzza, who were accessible for worshippers, and who would help people directly.
 

cambridge79

Active Member
The Meccans were not pagans, they were descendants of Abraham, who believed in one G-d, from his elder son Ishmael and were believers in Allah. Sorry, you are wrong. Please
Regards

honest as usual. you not only completely ignore the main part of my message ( where i said Muhammad was not a defender like you say, wich should be the main topic of this discussion ) but you also dismiss the rest of it with no evidence whatsoever

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabia#Religion

"Religion in pre-Islamic Arabia was a mix of polytheism, Christianity, Judaism, and Iranian religions. Arab polytheism, the dominant belief system, was based on the belief in deities and other supernatural beings such as djinn. Gods and goddesses were worshipped at local shrines, such as the Kaaba in Mecca. The Kaaba was dedicated to Hubal and also contained the images of the three chief goddesses Al-lāt, Al-‘Uzzá and Manāt. Some scholars postulate that Allah may have been one of the gods of the Meccan religion to whom the shrine was dedicated although it seems he had little relevance in the religion. Many of the physical descriptions of the pre-Islamic gods are traced to idols, especially near the Kaaba, which is believed to have contained up to 360 of them"
 
Last edited:
"Religion in pre-Islamic Arabia was a mix of polytheism, Christianity, Judaism, and Iranian religions. Arab polytheism, the dominant belief system, was based on the belief in deities and other supernatural beings such as djinn. Gods and goddesses were worshipped at local shrines, such as the Kaaba in Mecca. The Kaaba was dedicated to Hubal and also contained the images of the three chief goddesses Al-lāt, Al-‘Uzzá and Manāt. Some scholars postulate that Allah may have been one of the gods of the Meccan religion to whom the shrine was dedicated although it seems he had little relevance in the religion."

First of all, what do you mean by "pre-Islamic", how far back does this go?

Secondly, what you say is actually largely based on the Muslim Sirah which is not widely acknowledged as being particularly accurate by historians.
 

cambridge79

Active Member
First of all, what do you mean by "pre-Islamic", how far back does this go?

Secondly, what you say is actually largely based on the Muslim Sirah which is not widely acknowledged as being particularly accurate by historians.

the wikipedia article references actually point to cambridge ( not me :D ) and columbia university texts when it makes these claims, can you point me to more accurate and reliable sources?
 
the wikipedia article references actually point to cambridge and columbia university texts when it makes these claims, can you point me to more accurate and reliable sources?

This is my thread summarising the main academic perspectives:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...n-islam-various-academic-perspectives.182886/

This is my thread with links to the sources

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/academic-resources-for-early-islam.183021/


Am more than happy to discuss any specific issues.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
honest as usual. you not only completely ignore the main part of my message ( where i said Muhammad was not a defender like you say, wich should be the main topic of this discussion ) but you also dismiss the rest of it with no evidence whatsoever

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabia#Religion

"Religion in pre-Islamic Arabia was a mix of polytheism, Christianity, Judaism, and Iranian religions. Arab polytheism, the dominant belief system, was based on the belief in deities and other supernatural beings such as djinn. Gods and goddesses were worshipped at local shrines, such as the Kaaba in Mecca. The Kaaba was dedicated to Hubal and also contained the images of the three chief goddesses Al-lāt, Al-‘Uzzá and Manāt. Some scholars postulate that Allah may have been one of the gods of the Meccan religion to whom the shrine was dedicated although it seems he had little relevance in the religion. Many of the physical descriptions of the pre-Islamic gods are traced to idols, especially near the Kaaba, which is believed to have contained up to 360 of them"
The Meccans believed in Allah. Muhammad's father's name was Abdullah (Abd- of-Allah) or servant of Allah. Quran mentions it addressing the Meccans:
[37:150]Now ask them whether thy Lord has daughters whereas they have sons.
[37:151]Did We create the angels females while they were witnesses?
[37:152]Now, surely it is one of their fabrications that they say,
[37:153]‘Allah has begottenchildren;’ and they are certainly liars.
[37:154]Has He chosen daughters in preference to sons?
[37:155]What is the matter with you? How judge ye?
[37:156]Will you not then reflect?
[37:157]Or have you a clear authority?
[37:158]Then produce your Book, if you are truthful.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=37&verse=149
Regards
 

Kirran

Premium Member
The Meccans believed in Allah. Muhammad's father's name was Abdullah (Abd- of-Allah) or servant of Allah. Quran mentions it addressing the Meccans:
[37:150]Now ask them whether thy Lord has daughters whereas they have sons.
[37:151]Did We create the angels females while they were witnesses?
[37:152]Now, surely it is one of their fabrications that they say,
[37:153]‘Allah has begottenchildren;’ and they are certainly liars.
[37:154]Has He chosen daughters in preference to sons?
[37:155]What is the matter with you? How judge ye?
[37:156]Will you not then reflect?
[37:157]Or have you a clear authority?
[37:158]Then produce your Book, if you are truthful.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=37&verse=149
Regards

It is highly plausible that beliefs varied among the Meccans. There was a pre-Islamic monotheistic sect, with which Muhammad's family did not seem to have been affiliated.
 
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