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Was Constantine right?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by ecook, May 2, 2004.

  1. ecook

    ecook New Member

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    Do you think it was right for Constantine to further Christianity by making it law?
     
  2. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    ***MOD POST***

    Moving this to the debate forum...
     
  3. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    To state the obvious, this topic is gonna turn into religion bashing, if anyone posts here....

    The answer entirely depends on your point of view. For Christians, the answer would be that it was fine, because it got the Romans out of their moral decay in paganism. For everyone else, it furthered religious persecution and helped corrupt the church. It should also be noted that his adoption of Christianity helped spur a revival in theology and philosophy, as the general populace had lost faith (for the most part) in their old religion.

    Chao
     
  4. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    The only thing that bothers me about this council and era was It appears that important information was left out of the Bible, i.e. the Gospel of Thomas, Dead Sea Scrolls, etc. Some believe that these documents were hidden at that time to avoid being destroyed. The law doesn't bother me, what was left out does.
     
  5. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    This is getting off topic but o well....

    Certain books, like the Gospel of Thomas, were left out for a reason... Some were written too late (Gospel of Mary, and others were not considered because they were considered too strange. Read some of the Gospel of Thomas for clarification. It states some very strange things. For instance, no woman can get into heaven unless she becomes a male. Teachins like this never appear in any other writings, and are discreditted. Read Lee Stobel's The Case for Christ for a more in-depth clarification.
     
  6. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    The Nicene council was in 325 A.D. The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gospel of Thomas were written well before this.

    This is the quote you might be referring to and this does not say a woman has to change into a man before she can get to heaven. That is a misinterpretation.

    22. Yeshúa sees little children who are being suckled. He says to his Disciples: These little children who are being suckled are like those who enter the Sovereignty. || They say to him: Shall we thus by becoming little children enter the Sovereignty? || Yeshúa says to them: When you make the two one, and you make the inside as the outside and the outside as the inside and the above as the below, and if you establish the male with the female as a single unity so that the man will not be masculine and the woman not be feminine, when you establish [an eye] in the place of an eye and a hand in the place of a hand and a foot in the place of a foot and an imageº in the place of an image— then shall you enter [the Sovereignty]. (Mt 18:3; ; =Clement of Alexandria, Stromata III.13; cp. Odes of St. Solomon 34:5, ‘The likeness of what is below, is that which is above— for everything is above; what is below is nothing but the delusion of those who are without knowledge’; also Socrates in Plato's Phaedrus, ‘Beloved Pan, and whatever other gods be present, grant me to be handsome in inward soul, and that the outside and the inside be one’; interlinear)

    I think the problem was more likely that the Gospel of Thomas preached that the Divine was within us. The church can't make money that way.
     
  7. Rex

    Rex Founder

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    The gospel of thomas was also considered very gnostic in nature.

    Thus not cannonized.
     
  8. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    I didn't say that the gospel of Thomas was written later. I said the gospel of Mary was written later, and that was just an example. Besides, the councils were probably the most anti-gnostic events ever to take place in history, and it's no wonder that Thomas never made it. However, your points may be valid, as there are many different churches that have different cannons. All we hear about is the Catholic vs. Protestant debate, however, and we remain ignorant to many of the smaller battles. The Protestant cannon is widely considered to be the most conservative of all cannons, short of discarding the entire NT altogether. :)

    It just seems like all the groups that champion Thomas get eaten alive by mainstream theologians. Gnostics....Jesus seminar.... :roll:
     
  9. LilChrist

    LilChrist Member

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    You know, just for the heck of it, I'll state something on the first subject, lol. Why, I have no idea. If Christianity is forced as a law, people will hate it, never truly accepting it as their personal faith. It's like God forcing us to love Him. We wouldn't really be loving Him for who He is. We'd be loving Him for no perpose, only because He makes us. Love--or Christianity--can not truly be forced.
     
  10. LilChrist

    LilChrist Member

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    You know, just for the heck of it, I'll state something on the first subject, lol. Why, I have no idea. If Christianity is forced as a law, people will hate it, never truly accepting it as their personal faith. It's like God forcing us to love Him. We wouldn't really be loving Him for who He is. We'd be loving Him for no perpose, only because He makes us. Love--or Christianity--can not truly be forced.
     
  11. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Well, that's pretty much the way things were run back then-- freedom of religion was still a concept ahead of Constantine's time.

    Basically, it was either Christianity or some other religion. Either way, people were to be persecuted. I actually think that Christianity did very well in furthering our society back in the day, but who is to say that things would have been negatively different without it?
     
  12. Luke, Anglican of Newcast

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    I have to agree and disagree with you here Cerdiwen.

    The easiest way back in the Acient times and Dark Ages, and still in certain places today, the easiset way to convert the people was to convert the King since the Kings would offence then display its influence throughout his land.

    But to say that Christianity would not have worked out the same if it had gone through different methods, I would have to disagree with you.
    If Christianity had not gone through the way it did, then many things today would be different and if the Christians had still been pesecuted their may have been no Christians left in places where Christianity is strong today.
    Anyway that's open to discussion.
     
  13. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Luke,

    Actually, I think we are agreeing here. I agree that Christianity would not have worked out the same if different 'methods' had been used. What I'm basically saying here, is that if some other religion besides Christianity had been pushed ahead by Constantine, our modern world would be much different, as it would be based off of different principles.
     
  14. Luke, Anglican of Newcast

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    Thanks Ceridwen.
    I tend to emphasise the idea that all things in the past have led to the current present and future, from the smallest blade of grass to medieval war to the house down the road.
     
  15. Mr Spinkles

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    I would disagree here, Luke and Ceridwen. The early Christians, though they were persecuted, increased greatly in numbers even before Constantine. Even if Christianity had not been made the official religion by Constantine, there is no reason to suspect that this trend would not have continued. The Romans would have had to (eventually) accept Christianity one way or another, as persecution clearly never succeeded in stopping its spread.

    I am surprised that Christians have not yet pointed out the fact that Constantine radically corrupted Christianity from its original form, a form which one can only assume was closer to the true teachings of Jesus than today's forms. For example, before Constantine, Christians were strict pacifists.....but when every citizen was required by law to be Christian, so were the soldiers, and the new state-run church (or church-run state) went back on its earlier beliefs to allow for Christians to engage in violent warfare.
     
  16. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    The WAY, a sect of the Jews was the first Church, gentiles were added into the Way when Peter was enlightened and the Elders of the Church gave halahka for the gentile believers. After the Temple destruction and the outlawing anything and everything Jewish, did anything resembling Christianity come into being.
    Constantine was right for his Church! Wrong for the truth. It has taken almost 2000 yrs. to expose the truth again, only a few are getting glimpses of the "Truth."
    Could this be, "Many are called and few are chosen"?????
     
  17. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Ronald, I'm sorry buddy but I can't tell what you're trying to say. Do you agree that Constantine altered the bible?
     
  18. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    No, he did not alter the Bible, He brought in Paganism tradition and outlawed anything Jewish. He changed times and the law. It has been great for haSatan and the Christian church. Dealing an almost fatal blow to the Way. The New Testament Body of the Messiah. The end is near and the Truth is coming to the fore.
    Hitch your chariot to a star and hang on, you ain't seen nothing yet!!!!
     
  19. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    First of all, how can something be good for Satan AND the christian church?

    Secondly, you talk of 'fatal blows to the Way', when in fact it was Constantine's additions which kept it alive.

    And lastly, in the highly unlikely event that the world is going to end, it wouldn't really make much sense for god to reveal 'the truth' then now would it? We'd already all be dead.
     
  20. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Satan is on the loose, the Christian church is still front and center.

    The word "ALMOST" you omitted, it is alive and is growing and Truth is coming to the fore. In spite of Constantine. You are mixing my words as satan would want. The Way was a sect of the Jews, Jewish except they believed in the Messiah/I am the Way.

    It is highly likely the end will come with or with out God! Mankind is Hell Bent on Destruction. But, God will do as he said in his word. Salvation to those who believe and destruction to those who refuse to serve him and continue to aid and abet satan
     
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