1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Was Canaan the child of Ham and Noah’s wife

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by sooda, Apr 16, 2019.

  1. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,359
    Ratings:
    +2,233
    Religion:
    Christian

    Genesis 9:24
    When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son (Ham) had done to him.

    Genesis 10:21 indicates that Japheth was the oldest and was born when Noah was 500 years old. Ham is the youngest, as indicated in Genesis 9:24, after Ham’s inappropriate actions to his father
     
  2. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    7,794
    Ratings:
    +541
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    It's a national curse, the potter/clay/Jacob/Esau are national. There is no predestinarian salvation for individuals, it's all national/corportate.

    We call (some of the descendants of) the Canaanites Palestinians today.
     
  3. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,953
    Ratings:
    +1,835
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    This is interesting... But I do have a couple of questions:

    1) I noticed that you take the curse of Canaan literally but you are expounding on how things should be taken literal but rather culturally, or by anachronism or by an application of euphemism. Seems contradictory on the surface although I believe that all Christians believe that some things are literal and some aren't. Why did you take this literally?
    2) Could it be possible that there are other understandings because of cultural idioms as you mentioned?

    John Gill has a cultural idiom understanding:

    and knew what his younger son had done to him;
    "either by revelation, as some, or prophecy, as Ben Gersom, or by the relation of his two sons, whom, when finding himself covered with another's garment, he might question how it came about, and they told him the whole affair: some, as Aben Ezra, Ben Gersom, and Abendana, think that this was not Ham, the younger son of Noah, and whom some also will have not to be the youngest, being always placed middlemost, but Canaan, the fourth and youngest son of Ham; and whom Noah indeed might call his younger, or "his son, the little one" F16; as it was usual for grandchildren to be called the sons of their grandfather; see ( Genesis 29:5 ) and Noah might be informed how his little son, or rather grandson Canaan, had been in his tent, and seeing him in the posture he was, went very merrily, and told his father Ham of it, who made a jest of it also; and this seems the more reasonable, since Canaan was immediately cursed by Noah, as in the following verse; (See Gill on Genesis 9:22) this affair must happen many years after Noah's coming out of the ark, since then his sons had no children; whereas Ham had at this time four sons, and Canaan was the youngest of them; and he was grown up to an age sufficient to be concerned in this matter, of treating his grandfather in an ill way, so as to bring his curse upon him: Jarchi interprets "little" by abominable and contemptible, supposing it refers not to age, but character, and which was bad both in Ham and Canaan:" (Emphasis mine)

    I'm not sure why:
    1) What is so horrific - we do come out naked and we certainly don't go to Heaven with our earthly clothes and thus "naked"
    2) "the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD" is just what Job said. He also admitted later, "Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

    I personally think that he didn't now what he was saying.

    Although I understand the necessity to have a cultural understanding, I think it would be wrong to apply Job with Psalms. Different application.

    OK, but perhaps your interpretation of Beersheba is wrong? Again, quoting from John Gill:

    "Wherefore he called that place Beersheba
    Either Abraham or Abimelech, or both, called it so; or it may be read impersonally, "therefore the place was called Beersheba" for two reasons, one implied, the other expressed; one was, because of the seven lambs before mentioned; so the Targum of Jonathan,

    ``and therefore he called the well the well of seven lambs;''"Beer" signifying a well, and "sheba" seven; the other, and which is more certain, being expressed, is as follows; because there they sware both of them;
    by the living God, to keep the covenant inviolably they had made between them."

    His understanding (as well as from the Targum of Jonathan) seems to be better applied, IMO.

    Agreed.

     
  4. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,359
    Ratings:
    +2,233
    Religion:
    Christian
    Good grief.. I don't take it literally.. IMO there was no Noah and no global flood.. Just trying to understand the mindset and motives of those who wrote this myth.

    Canaan was the father of Sidon his firstborn, and of the Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, Girga****es, Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, Arvadites, Zemarites and Hamathites.

    Canaanites were both settled and nomadic people living west of the Jordan River, by the sea, and along by the side of the Jordan.

    They were settled farmers and Bedouin and the Bedouins had symbiotic affiliations with settled members of extended families. They were NOT landless.

    Is this the reason the Hebrews claimed God told them to murder the Canaanites?
     
  5. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,953
    Ratings:
    +1,835
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    WHOOOA there horsey. Just giving insight and understanding. Not accusing you of being a literalist.

    As far as the extermination of Canaanites, I believe it was because of:

    1) Child sacrificing including burning in fires;
    2) Bestiality (rampant sickness?)
    3) Incest
    4) Deviant acts

    I would assume that murder was also on the list of things Canaanites were used to doing.

    But I'm not sure what this had to do with the original OP? Are we changing the subject now?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,359
    Ratings:
    +2,233
    Religion:
    Christian
    The readers are looking for an excuse for the fictional Noah to curse his grandson... So much for "Holy" Bible.
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,359
    Ratings:
    +2,233
    Religion:
    Christian
    The Hebrews had the same problems with incest and child sacrifice.. We know a lot more about the Canaanite religion since 1930 when they found the clay tablets at Ras Shamra.. The Jews were Canaanites and worshipped the same pantheon of gods.
     
  8. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,953
    Ratings:
    +1,835
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    Yes, some Jews also did not follow Yahweh, but there was always consequences followed by repentance. Thus the Diaspora,.
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,359
    Ratings:
    +2,233
    Religion:
    Christian
    The Diaspora began long before the birth of Christ.. There were Jewish communities in Alexandria, Aleppo, Persia, Damascus, all around the Med and in Anatolia, Elephantine Island and Rome.

    I don't make that connection.. I just think the religion evolved.
     
  10. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,953
    Ratings:
    +1,835
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    OK...

    Don't agree...

    But that is a matter of viewpoints.
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,040
    Ratings:
    +4,626
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    What readers? Why does Noah have to be a fictional character? Who said?
    Jesus spoke of him as a real person and the conditions that caused God to eliminate wicked men and demons from existence back then have arrived upon us again, just as he said. (Matthew 24:37-39)

    Whatever was done to Noah was serious enough to merit God's extreme displeasure with the perpetrators. The Bible provides no details of the offense, so running away with guesswork accomplishes what?
     
    #31 Deeje, Apr 18, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,040
    Ratings:
    +4,626
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    :facepalm: The Jews were told NOT to adopt the ways of the Canaanites.

    Deuteronomy 18:9-12...
    "When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations. 10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, 11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you."

    The very things that God warned them about is what they practiced....the very things that were "detestable" to God is what they did. Any wonder he punished them!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,507
    Ratings:
    +156
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    Good News Bible Catholic Study Edition, Genesis 9: 24;When Noah sobered up and learned what his youngest Son-ben-descendant had done to him, he said; "A curse on Canaan, etc"

    Good News Bible Catholic Study Edition, Genesis 10: 21; Shem the older brother of Japheth, was the ancestor of all the Hebrews.

    Noah began his family with the birth of Ham, when he was 500. Shem was 100, two years after the flood which ended when Noah was 600: Shem the older brother of Japheth was born when Noah was 502.

    Because of what Ham's son 'Canaan' had done to Noah while he lay naked in his tent in a drunken stupor, Ham lost the blessing of first-born, which was then given to Shem the second born. .

    Jubilees 7: 13; And Ham knew that his father had cursed his younger son, and he was displeased that he had cursed his son. and he parted from his father, he and his sons with him, Cush and Mizraim and Put and Canaan. And he built for himself a city and called its name after the name of his wife Ne’elatama’uk.

    The Book of Jubilees Chapter 8: When Noah divided the Land among his three sons, Shem received the middle portion, from the delta of the river of Egypt, north to Lebanon and east to India, while Ham received the land of Africa to the south, and Japheth received the land to the north of Lebanon, which according to the book of Jubilees 8: 30; It is said that the Land of Japheth included the five great islands and a great land in the north. But it is cold, and the land of Ham is Hot, and the land of Shem (The middle son) is neither hot nor cold, but it is of blended cold and heat.

    The sons of Noah then divided their portion of land among their sons, and it is written in Jubilees 9: 14; “And thus the sons of Noah divided unto their sons in the presence of Noah their father, and he bound them all by an oath, imprecating a curse on everyone who sought to seize the portion that had not fallen to him by lot. And they all said, ‘So be it; so be it,’ for themselves and for their sons for ever throughout their generations til the day of judgement, etc.”

    Then in chapter 10: 29; we read; “And Canaan saw the land of Lebanon to the river Egypt, that it was very good, and he went not into the land of his inheritance to the west (That is to) the sea, and he dwelt in the land of Lebanon, eastward and westward from the border of the Jordan and from the border of the sea. And Ham his father, and Cush and Mizraim, his brothers said unto him: ‘Thou hast settled in a land which is not thine, and which did not fall to us by lot: do not do so; for if thou dost do so, thou and thy sons will fall in the land and be accursed through sedition; for by sedition ye have settled; and by sedition will thy children fall, and thou shalt be rooted out forever, etc.
     
    #33 The Anointed, Apr 18, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
  14. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,359
    Ratings:
    +2,233
    Religion:
    Christian
    I take it you follow the Book of Jubilees instead of the Bible.
     
  15. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,507
    Ratings:
    +156
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    The book of Jubilees, the books of Enoch etc, may not belong to few limited scriptures compiled by the Roman church of Emperor Constantine as their canon.

    And all her denominational daughters, who were spawned from her spirit/teachings before breaking away from their mother body in order to establish families of their own, are too afraid to eat from any table that was not prepared by her, they are afraid that any other spiritual food, that has not been prepared by SHE who sits on the seven hills of Rome and is the mother of harlots, would be poison to them.

    But I eat whatever is set before me. That which is needed for the continued growth of the mind/spirit that is me, is retained, the rubbish is rejected

    Yes I believe Luke who says that Cainam is the father of Shelah, and reject the parts in the Roman and Jewish bible, which state that Shelah is the son of Arpachshad, and why? because Luke's statement is verified in the book of Jubilees and the Septuagint.
     
    #35 The Anointed, Apr 19, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
  16. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,359
    Ratings:
    +2,233
    Religion:
    Christian

    The Book Of Jubilees Chapter 1 - Yahweh's Scriptures
    11 And they will make to themselves high places and groves and graven images, and they will worship, each his own (graven image), so as to go astray, and they will sacrifice their children to demons, and to all the works of the error of their hearts.

    12 And I will send witnesses unto them, that I may witness against them, but they will not hear, and will slay the witnesses also, and they will persecute those who seek the torah, and they will abrogate and change everything so as to work evil before My eyes.
     
  17. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,507
    Ratings:
    +156
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    And they will make to themselves high places and groves and graven images, and they will worship, each his own (graven image), so as to go astray, and they 12 will sacrifice their children to demons, and to all the works of the error of their hearts. And I will

    send witnesses unto them, that I may witness against them, but they will not hear, and will slay the witnesses also, and they will persecute those who seek the law, and they will abrogate and change 13 everything so as to work evil before My eyes. And I will hide My face from them, and I will deliver them into the hand of the Gentiles for captivity, and for a prey, and for devouring, and I will remove them from the midst of the land, and I will scatter them amongst the Gentiles.

    14 And they will forget all My law and all My commandments and all My judgments, and will go 15 astray as to new moons, and sabbaths, and festivals, and jubilees, and ordinances. And after this they will turn to Me from amongst the Gentiles with all their heart and with all their soul and with all their strength, and I will gather them from amongst all the Gentiles, and they will seek me, so 16 that I shall be found of them, when they seek me with all their heart and with all their soul.

    And I will disclose to them abounding peace with righteousness, and I will remove them the plant of uprightness, with all My heart and with all My soul, and they shall be for a blessing and not for 17 a curse, and they shall be the head and not the tail. And I will build My sanctuary in their midst, and I will dwell with them, and I will be their God and they shall be My people in truth and 18, 19 righteousness. And I will not forsake them nor fail them; for I am the Lord their God.’

    What a loving forgiving God they have. What do you reckon Grandma?
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,359
    Ratings:
    +2,233
    Religion:
    Christian
    God's Revelation to Moses on Mount Sinai
    (i. 1-26: cf. Ex. xxiv. 15-18).
     
Loading...