1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured 'Was' and 'Beginning' in John 1:1

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by tigger2, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,620
    Ratings:
    +1,684
    Literalism...nice.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    33,171
    Ratings:
    +4,099
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    There is no such thing. We each carry our own perspective within us.
    Grace.
    Jesus was literate — he attended rabbinical school, much like our modern seminaries of “Christendom.”

    Not so. Paul’s letters are HIGHLY demonstrative of his Judaic teaching and theology.

    There you go again, dissing whatever you don’t like. And no. I mean universally-accepted by the scholastic standards of the people who attended universities who gave you a Bible you could read.

    Correct. Remember that Matthew was teaching a minor, diasporic community that they were the “true Israel.”

    One that includes peer-reviewed scholars and people trained in exegesis and interpretation.

    I’m not surprised.
     
  3. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    So Jesus has or will condemn any Jew that chose or chooses not to become Christian?

    Fiery everlasting hell? Of course they don’t. Instead they teach us to follow an Organization of false prophesy or be annihilated.


    A “consideration” which makes absolutely no sense of course.

    If our ancestors are “in line for a resurrection” why are the Jehovah Witnesses condemning them? In fact, they should be praising our ancestors for a job well done, and explaining exactly how we can be more like our ancestors who are already in line for a resurrection!

    Did you get this from the Westboro Baptist Church's web site? It seem more like their orthodoxy to me.

    Nah. JW’s do not believe in inter-faith anything, and they certainly don’t believe Christians and Witnesses can co-exist “in the same congregation”.

    The terms Witnesses like to use when describing their Organizations are “clean”, “pure”, “true”, and “undefiled”. Any other religious Organization can be described as “whorish”, ”pagan”, “unclean”, “demonic” or some such. To a Witness, it’s important to keep the Organization “clean” and not “defile” or "soil" it by “mixing religious services or activities with other “so-called Christians".

    As @Deeje has already explained to us, the wheat and tares separation is already being done by Jehovah Witnesses, so the angels won’t have to bother. When Armageddon comes, Jehovah will notice virtually all the wheat is located inside Kingdom Halls, whilst all the tares are outside.

    Watchtower lore has it that when Armageddon strikes, the rest of us will quickly notice the only thing NOT being struck by meteors are the Kingdom Halls. So we will all rush toward them in an effort to get inside, but they will lock the doors and say “too late”. The doors will be buttressed by angels of course.

    Oh they’re bothered, and I have no doubt they really do believe Jehovah is storing a special, red, extra-hot and fiery meteor in the heavens somewhere with the name “Oeste” written all over it…unless I join up and start publishing “The Truth™" (latest version) right away.

    No, I believe the question was whether we should condemn our ancestors.

    Exactly! So why condemn the straw in our ancestors’ eye when we all have a straw in our own?


    I do not condemn the Councils outright as some Protestants have . Instead I consider them necessities toward the establishment of sound doctrine and a common canon.

    Like most Protestants, I affirm universal Councils to the extent they were and are supportive of scripture.

    Calvinists do not reject the book of Romans so it would be a false dichotomy.
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,027
    Ratings:
    +5,284
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    At the end of the day, only the truth matters...perspectives don't depend on truth...only opinions.

    Even Grace has conditions....or didn't you know that it was qualified? No forgiveness unless there is repentance....no repentance....no grace.

    You see this is where you betray a complete lack of Bible knowledge. Who told you that Jesus had attended those schools?

    John 7:14-16...
    " When the festival was half over, Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. 15 And the Jews were astonished, saying: “How does this man have such a knowledge of the Scriptures when he has not studied at the schools?” 16 Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me."

    Jesus was well educated but not by the Jewish religious schools. His knowledge came straight from 'head office'.....it was in opposition to what the religious leaders taught. Their schools continued to promote their lies. That is why the 12 were not educated men. The whole kingdom is built with them as the foundation stones....Jesus is the "chief cornerstone", where a foundation is started.

    Then why did the Jews want him dead? They viewed him as an apostate. Why would they stone him? His education was put to good use in his unique ministry. He was able to speak to Pharisees as a Pharisee, fully trained at the feet of Gamaliel, a well respected man in Jewish circles. This gave him leverage that his uneducated fellow apostles did not have. His teachings were scriptural, quoting often form the Hebrew writings. He did not promote the teachings and traditions of the Pharisees.

    What "universe" is that? It's not one that I live in. Jesus and his disciples did not live in the same "universe" as the accepted religionists of his day either. He "dissed" them on a regular basis. Read Matthew 23.

    The Bible is God's word, not men's....he can use anyone he wishes to make it available to people of all nations to read in their own language. Remember that he can use even his enemies to accomplish his will. He used Babylon to punish his own people and later had them destroyed. God's will is accomplished, no matter whom he uses to do it. Pictorially, the Revelation tells us that "Babylon the great" will be destroyed by her former lovers. He will use one component of the devil's world system to eliminate another....all the while, they will think it's their own idea. (Revelation 17:15-18)

    You confine Jesus' words only to the first century? The major fulfillment of Matthew 24 is taking place right now. The "true Israel" are not fleshly Jews, but spiritual Jews....these are the chosen ones who will rule with Christ in heaven. True to his word, God gave natural Israel first dibs on gaining that privilege, but pride prevented that nation from achieving what God had offered her. He sought a new nation from among the Gentiles to carry his name and promote his Kingdom. (Acts 15:14)

    Trained by whom? When did Jesus consult the Pharisees about interpretation of scripture? He denounced their corrupt interpretation at every opportunity. We will do that too when Christendom tries to promote their false doctrines. You cannot get out of "Babylon the great" unless you know what this harlot is. (Revelation 18:4) It says that she "has a kingdom over the kings of the earth"...but those very kings will be used to destroy her. (Revelation 17:18)

    Well I'm not surprised that you hang on the words of Christendom's so called scholars who taught you those lies in the first place. You were taught to trust them, just as the Jews were taught to trust their religious leaders. Where did it get them?

    I was raised in Christendom and left in disgust before I became a JW. I have the most truthful teachers compared to what I struggled with in church. I watched in horror as they promoted bloodshed and supported the wars of their nations....resulting in "Christians" taking the lives of their fellow "believers" on the other side, in two world wars, and the many conflicts since, where the death of innocents was considered merely "collateral damage"....I don't think most people have any idea how far from Christ's teachings their churches have strayed. What is dished up to them is a very poor imitation IMO....but how will they know unless someone tells them?
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  5. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    33,171
    Ratings:
    +4,099
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    I disagree.

    Shows what you know...

    Jesus could read and write. Most people in that culture couldn't. In fact, most pharisees only knew the texts by rote aural memorization.

    You see this is where you betray a complete lack of Bible knowledge.

    I don't doubt that. You apparently live in a universe where putting one's head in the sand scholastically is routine and expected.

    Yikes!

    That's when he was alive... And that's when Matthew's community was formed. Possibly the early 2nd century.

    ...Because I know what I'm talking about.

    But you're obviously not bitter...

    No church I've ever known about, with the exception of Westboro Baptist has EVER bought into the atrocities of war.
     
  6. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    375
    Ratings:
    +112
    Religion:
    FOLLOWER OF CHRIST
    Hi.
    I'm not sure why my responses riled you up so much. You asked for an explanation i gave a couple. I fully understand that you disagree but you asked how THEY view it. You have conflated the argument in your pointed responses to now imply that the Jws wish YOUR ancestors condemned. That's petty. And a lie.
    ....................................................
    So Jesus has or will condemn any Jew that chose or chooses not to become Christian?

    Really not sure what to say, maybe you just miswrote.... are you saying he'll accept those that reject him???

    ..................................................

    Nah. JW’s do not believe in inter-faith anything, and they certainly don’t believe Christians and Witnesses can co-exist “in the same congregation”.


    This makes me wonder what your game really is. Did you not even READ the explanation of the wheat and weeds given. If you did then your comment is really, frankly, stupid...... actually in the SAME post you show that your comment is meaningless incitement.... these are your own bloody words for goodness sake...........


    .As @Deeje has already explained to us, the wheat and tares separation is already being done by Jehovah Witnesses, so the angels won’t have to bother. When Armageddon comes, Jehovah will notice virtually all the wheat is located inside Kingdom Halls, whilst all the tares are outside.


    So it should have been OBVIOUS that the reference to wheat and weeds in the same congregation was referring to BEFORE the harvest began. So what was your big point here in even mentioning interfaith.

    .....................................................
    Exactly! So why condemn the straw in our ancestors’ eye when we all have a straw in our own?

    Condemn, condemn condemn i really don't know where this comes from you can't be that unaware of what they actually teach can you.

    They condemn the false teachers that impossed false teaching into the so-called christian faith and encourage people to return to a pre Imperium christianity. BUT i'm pretty sure and correct me if i'm wrong they consider almost ALL the peoples from past centuries as in line for the resurrection. They condemn NO ONE who hasn't made a clear informed decision "about the Christ".
    BUT you know this, or least you should, which again makes me wonder why you are making NON points to which you should already know the answer.

    They condemn THIS world for sure... but the ancestors, for the most part, are safe.
    ............................................................................................


    Calvinists do not reject the book of Romans so it would be a false dichotomy.


    Sorry for that, i assumed (their i go again) that with the formidable theological grounding you have displayed that the question would have been obvious and i was trying to be short. Not sure why your mind went to Romans in the later stages and not to the first chapters when it should have been obvious that i was referring to the age old well trodden question of Roman 2:14,15. or Calvin's take ... the Divine foreordaining or foreknowledge of all that will happen; with regard to the salvation of some and not others. I use the classic example of the stone age aboriginal.

    If, say, you had an pagan ancestor in the bronze age, which you assuredly do, Is that ancestor somehow saved even though he never accepted Christ? This is where YOUR talk of ancestors gets you. Justify how you either save them without Jesus or keep them out of hell. And no cop out like ' i just leave that sort of thing in the hands of Gods justice. If we can parse the very substance and nature of GOD this should be easy peasy.
    .................................................
    Peace.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,027
    Ratings:
    +5,284
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Your responses often leave me shaking my head....

    You do understand that at death, humans have paid sin's wages. (Romans 6:23) The death penalty was the highest penalty under God's law. At death their slate is wiped clean so to speak, so the "unrighteous" have the same resurrection as the "righteous"...all called from the same place..their graves. (John 5:28-29) The "righteous" have no reason for any judgment, having died faithful...but the "unrighteous" are placed under a period of judgment, so that they will have an opportunity to change their course. The incorrigibly "wicked" however will receive no resurrection at all.

    Interfaith? No, we will not do what Paul says is abhorrent to God. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) We will never mix true religion with false religion...something Christendom does seamlessly...or so they think.

    ....methinks you have a very vivid imagination. None of Jehovah's Witnesses wants to see anyone destroyed....its the reason why we keep calling.....but the reality is inevitable. Armageddon will happen and nothing will stop it.

    The 'separation' is not done by us at all....we are merely the messengers who allow hearts to make decisions. According to Matthew 24:14...as part of the sign of the end times...Jesus said, "...this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." This "witness" was to come from Christ's disciples and as we can plainly see, the churches do not preach to their neighbors. They have no idea what the Kingdom is or what its supposed to do...yet this good news will be preached as the only "witness" that people will get. How are the churches saving anyone by cosying themselves up in a building and pretending that Jesus never gave the command to preach and make disciples? (Matthew 28:19-20) When was the last time a member of any church called at my door with any news at all? How about never....(Matthew 10:11-15)

    The decisions that people make in response to that global preaching work are observed by the judge of all of us.....he will determine who is a sheep and who is a goat. Calling ourselves "Christians" will cut no mustard with Jesus. (Matthew 7:21-23) Like his Father, he hates hypocrisy.

    The end of this system will be spectacular.....no doubt about it....but most of the tribulation foretold by Jesus is the result of humans turning on other humans.....God will just finish the job. It will begin with the destruction of Babylon the great.....if we have not removed ourselves, we will go down with her. (Revelation 18:4-5)

    With an attitude like that...I highly doubt that God would want anyone to just "join up" and go through the motions because they are told to as some kind of performance or else....in Christendom, "joining" a church is a bit like joining a club.....you pay your dues and that is just about all that's required of you. In a club, your behavior would have to be extreme to be given the boot. In Christendom, no one speaks up about immorality or gross wrongdoing in the congregation because if the Pastor did that, his erring sheep would find another church and he would be out of funds in a short period of time. Its a lousy reason to tolerate what God hates.

    Becoming a Christian, OTOH requires commitment and dedication.....it has rules and they are expected to be obeyed. In the first century, no one was permitted to entertain their own take on scripture.....nor were they free to share their opinions in the congregation or to sway others to a different point of view. Swift action was taken to minimize the damage. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13; 2 John: 9-10)
    Its called "standards" and they are set by God.....I see no standards in Christendom...just disunity. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    33,171
    Ratings:
    +4,099
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    Hate, hypocrisy, judgment, entitlement -- on and on. This isn't Christianity. This isn't what Jesus taught. This doesn't either foster or continue the healing work Jesus began. Too bad. The religious zeal could be so much more helpful to the human family.
     
  9. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    375
    Ratings:
    +112
    Religion:
    FOLLOWER OF CHRIST
    If the true face of christianity is reflected in the blood splattered mosh pit of the competeing beliefs and political battles that are reflected on this site then you can have it my friends. While millions have been slaughtered by "christians" in the name of the false goghead preached on these pages their is not a single death caused by those who you claim to be the hypocrites. Surely if we look at the fruits of christendom we can see that they are not Christian.

    You do realise that something changed when "Imperial Power and Wealth" was confered upon the Bishoprics in the 330's don't you? Of course this does NOT necessarily mean they were corrupted but to just blow past the point over and over again is evasive in the extreme.
    To blithely think that while the church was being transformed by these men from a religion of peace into an Imperial warrior religion in opposition to Christ that it was these same men who were full of Holy Spirit and established TRUTH is the height of hypocrisy and stupidity .
    Any individual or group that justifies the taking of LIFE for ANY reason, let alone in the service of Christ, is disgusting and diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus our King and Lord.

    And anyone who does not condemn such actions and instead follows the teachings of these ones is culpable in the bloodshed is he not?

    Their are plenty of accounts of the Political nature of the wranglings between the bishops in the years after Nicaea. Ambrose of Milan for example..... probably the most important figure of the late 300's, more important than Theodosius even, was a Roman bureaucrat one day, a priest the next and "The Bishop of Milan" on the third day. This is the man that finally broke the anti-nicaean factions in the roman church as well as sparking 1000 years of strife with his insistence that the church is above the Emperor. He was also the early patron of Augustine and all the horror that idiot introduced into the "church". If one finds Hate, hypocrisy, judgment and entitlement to be insurmountable obstacles to the establishment of truth then it is irrefutable that the men who established the doctrines of christendoms faith were not short in these qualities. They were also not adverse to the odd murder.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  10. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    It’s not the response Moz, it’s your tone and that’s not only from me. I would never characterize your arguments as lies or stupid, as you will characterize mine below, but apparently you have no such restraint.

    It’s possible you are Australian or English where the same words carry a different connotation. I’ll try to keep an open mind about it.


    Then apparently our perceptions on how they view it differ. I've studied with them, attended meeting with them, played with them, prayed with them, and at one time even pointed and thought like them. It is only through the grace of God that I did not get baptized by them, otherwise none of my old friends or even my cousins would talk with me, and the Witnesses on this forum would be "excused" from ever talking with me and look "righteously" down their nose, just enough to pretend I wasn't there.

    In short, I would be shunned.

    A conflation that’s “petty” and “a lie! Really?

    Let’s go through this last post of yours slowly, one point at a time:

    The following is a quote from Deeje:

    Deeje has just explained to everyone here that my Christian ancestors (some of whom were Ministers and Deacons) were “corrupt” and “hypocrites” of a “false religion” church that Christ has never (and “nevermeans "not ever”) set foot in, and my objection to this blatant and offensive mischaracterization as a “condemnation” is petty and a lie???

    I realize her remarks are all "fruit of the Watchtower", but was I supposed to exclude my ancestors because she was addressing her remarks to @sojourner?

    Please explain your thinking and rationale. I’m all ears at this point.

    Let's look at what else the WT has to say:

    "In fact, with God's day of judgment so near today, all the world should 'keep silent before the Sovereign Lord Jehovah' and hear what he says through the "little flock" of Jesus' anointed followers and their companions, his "other sheep." (Luke 12:32; John 10:16) Annihilation awaits all who will not listen and who thereby set themselves against rule by God's Kingdom." Watchtower 2001 Feb 15 p. 14​

    When Judge Rutherford drove around the streets of New York, not many kept silent to hear what he had to say. To now claim they will all be annihilated is pretty severe, and to be honest, I did have relatives living in New York during Rutherford's time.Is this a Fact I must Face about my ancestors?

    Judge Rutherford.jpg

    Since neither my parents, grandparents nor their parents were “united” with the Organization but with “Christendom”, and since they did not listen to what the “little flock” claims God says, tell us how they survive into the “New System” when annihilation awaits them all, and how my statement was ”a lie”.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian

    No,I did not mis-write and I wasn’t saying anything of the sort. I was asking “Do you believe Jesus has or will condemn any Jew that chose or chooses not to become Christian?”

    JW’s believe Judaism is part of “false religion” or the whore/prostitute called “Babylon the Great” and that the only “true” religion that is “clean and undefiled” just happens to be themselves. You can see this illustrated on their web site:

    BabylonGreat_WT.jpg
    You will immediately notice the hair of the man above which is shown wearing a long peyote. The last sentence of the article concludes:

    “For good reason, those who want to please God must “get out of her,” separating themselves from false religion”

    So I am NOT asking if Jesus will accept those who reject him. Let me put this another way:

    Do you agree with the Watchtower article that Judaism, like “Christendom”, is a “false religion” that Jews need to abandon in order to please God?

    *Edited 10:40 pm for smaller picture
     
    #111 Oeste, Sep 10, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  12. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    I’m sorry but I’m not sure what you’re referring to because I see neither the point nor basis of your statement. It appears to me, however wrongly, to be unsupported filler.



    There IS NO SUCH THING AS “SAME CONGREGATION” as far as Witnesses are concerned. The only “true” Congregation is their own, so it DOESN”T MATTER whether we are BEFORE or DURING the harvest period.

    Any mention of Christendom and Witnesses comprising the “same congregation” is seen as offensive to Witnesses. They would consider that “interfaith” which is something the Watchtower resoundingly rejects. It is necessary, from their perspective to keep separate (not same) congregations in order to keep their Organization “clean” and “undefiled” from say, my whorish, doomed to destruction congregation that is chock filled with “so called” Christians.

    That was my “big point”.
     
  13. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    375
    Ratings:
    +112
    Religion:
    FOLLOWER OF CHRIST

    Tell me when "the church" after the first century obeyed Christ's teachings. The more time went on, the more corrupt they became. Is it any wonder that Christ says to those hypocrites..."I NEVER knew you"....."never" means "not ever". I don't believe that Christ has ever set foot in Christendom.
    Deeje has just explained to everyone here that my Christian ancestors (some of whom were Ministers and Deacons) were “corrupt” and “hypocrites” of a “false religion” church that Christ has never (and “nevermeans "not ever”) set foot in, and my objection to this blatant and offensive mischaracterization as a “condemnation” is petty and a lie???

    I realize her remarks are all "fruit of the Watchtower", but was I supposed to exclude my ancestors because she was addressing her remarks to @sojourner?

    Please explain your thinking and rationale. I’m all ears at this point.

    HI.
    If your ancestors were part of the weeds that introduced political and military violence into the religion of Peace then OK.... they are amongst the few who are condemned. The lie i was exposing was your statement that ALL those in christendom are condemned.

    You seem confused..... i thought you said you knew this stuff.....
    Since neither my parents, grandparents nor their parents were “united” with the Organization but with “Christendom”, and since they did not listen to what the “little flock” claims God says, tell us how they survive into the “New System” when annihilation awaits them all, and how my statement was ”a lie”.

    This goes to the previous comment that you found offensive ..... you have done the same thing again.

    I'm not sure what word you would apply to this but i thought mine was appropriate.......... The wheat and weeds, at least the Jw take on it, is specific about the period between 33ce and 1914ce . You claim to know what you are talking about, yet AGAIN you pose a question that you should KNOW does not fit the subject. Now your great great grandfather may be a different matter.
    As for your more recent relatives......you should also know that those that die during this time are also in line for the resurrection and that the tribulation is the seeming cut off point. So if they are dead, their is hope. If they are alive, their is hope.

    Let us hope though, if you are right, that none of your relatives of any period are amongst the damned though. That would sure cramp your style in heaven listening to them scream for all eternity. Begging you for a drop of water you will never give them Lovely, hopeful teaching that is. Blissful eternity enjoying the justice of your god.


    I'm pretty sure the Jw approach is one of the few that explains the fate of those who never get to hear the true message about Christ and gives a scenario where every single creation makes a choice about whom they will serve. Billions of people have lived on this planet over the last couple of thousand years who never heard about any of this stuff. Your theology offers no hope for these ones does it.
    Peace.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    375
    Ratings:
    +112
    Religion:
    FOLLOWER OF CHRIST
    Hi. Yep.Peace.
     
  15. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian

    It comes straight out of Watchtower literature.

    Have you read it? Perhaps if I illustrate this condemnation for you, straight from a Watchtower magazine?:



    See that little cross at the top? That’s MY church, and the church of my father, and the church of my grandfather that’s being burned to the ground whilst the joyful Witnesses look on.

    Let’s stop again so I can ask you a question. If my church handed out flyers all over your neighborhood of burning Kingdom Halls with joyful Christians looking on, would you say my church was “condemning” the Watchtower and its Kingdom Hall or would you look as perplexed as your write now, and wonder what the fuss was all about?

    No, I’m definitely not unaware, because I'm telling you precisely what they taught me.



    "Similarly, unrepentant apostates go, at death, not to Sheol, or Hades, but to Gehenna. (Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Peter 2:1) The same is true of dedicated Christians who persist in willful sin or those who "shrink back." They will, therefore, not be resurrected." Watchtower 1982 Apr 1 p.27

    If I’m not mistaken, Witnesses believe the “so-called Christians” of “Christendom” went apostate sometime in the 3rd Century and have yet to “repent”.

    In fact, I’ve yet to read how any “so-called” Christian can “truly” repent outside of “Jehovah’s Organization”. If that's not true, now is the time for any JW to directly answer and tell us how.

    There was such a provision during the time of Russell but Rutherford closed the “loophole”.

    Witnesses are taught that Jehovah will make sure they do not mourn the billions of “putrefying” dead bodies lying at their feet, so obviously they’re not going to miss some ancient grandparent they didn’t directly know.

    "As for humans upon earth, on the side of Jehovah will be all those fully dedicated to him and who are faithfully following Jesus Christ; compared with earth's billions these are indeed few. ... On Satan's side will be all the rest of mankind, more than 99.9 percent ..." Watchtower 1958 Oct 15 p.614

    "The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those that are destroyed then." Kingdom Ministry 1968 Mar p.4

    I suspect your assertion has been carried on by the “rank and file” as a means of “theocratic warfare” (a doctrine that allows Witnesses to lie if they determine the recipient doesn’t yet “deserve the truth”) or as a type of assuage to get as many into the Org before it’s “too late”.

    I wouldn't be too sure about that Moz:

    "Children are affected by the course of their parents, and parents are warned that their iniquity is visited on their offspring unto the third and fourth generation. (Ex. 20:5, 6) Parents are commanded to instruct their children in God's way, and if in these last days parents refuse to heed the divine instruction and warning they bring destruction upon themselves and their small children at Armageddon. (Deut. 6:6, 7; Eph. 6:4) According to justice God can leave such children dead, for, as Ezekiel showed, all die in their iniquity." Watchtower 1950 Nov 15 p.463

    Kindly explain how a child can make a clear informed decision about Christ. Again, I'm all ears.

    Yes I know this and I know what I've been taught by the Watchtower, but it's not a point I wish I had to make. As for being a NON point, I'll let the reader decide.

    Condemn, condemn, condemn! I really don’t know where this comes from, but they’ve been doing that since their inception. Are any of my ancestors who were in the 1880 s or 1890’s considered “safe”? Or should we consider “safe” only those ancestors who lived prior to the writing of “You are my Witnesses” at Isaiah 43:10?

    In a hundred years, in 2119, will the billions living now be considered “safe” and only our descendants living then “unsafe”?

    Explain how this rationale works please because I really don’t see how it does.
     
  16. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    Then I'll hold our discussion there, and just say we've agreed to disagree.
     
  17. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    375
    Ratings:
    +112
    Religion:
    FOLLOWER OF CHRIST
    Hi
    Dude really.....There IS NO SUCH THING AS “SAME CONGREGATION” as far as Witnesses are concerned. The only “true” Congregation is their own, so it DOESN”T MATTER whether we are BEFORE or DURING the harvest period.

    Hi. Are you saying that the teaching isn't that "The wheat and the Weeds" would be in the SAME congregation until the time of the end. That is another lie. How can you even come to such an conclusion.

    The only “true” Congregation is their own..... Hmmmmm give me an example when they claimed this as applying BEFORE the harvest began. Why you choose to die on this particular hill is beyond me their are bigger fish to fry.

    Peace.
     
  18. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    375
    Ratings:
    +112
    Religion:
    FOLLOWER OF CHRIST
    Hi

    Witnesses are taught that Jehovah will make sure they do not mourn the billions of “putrefying” dead bodies lying at their feet, so obvio
    usly they’re not going to miss some ancient grandparent they didn’t directly know.

    Christendom teaches that for ALL ETERNITY you will be able to see, just over the chasm, billions of souls being tortured forever. That sin and hate for God will NEVER end. You will be able to hear God cursed for all eternity by those he tortures. And if by chance you have a relative in this condition his TORTURE will give you righteous JOY.

    Dude i know which is the disgusting concept.
    Peace.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    Of course its a lie, but I didn't come to that conclusion Moz, the Watchtower did.

    There is no "same congregation" when it comes to the Watchtower and any other denomination of Christianity. The Watchtower considers their Organization the sole body of Christ, and there is no other body and there are no other denominational members.

    Is that what the Wheat and the Tares parable tells us? Of course not. It's simply what Witnesses believe, and I don't recall ever reading a Watchtower publication that said differently. The wheat are or will be in the Organization as a result of the preaching work and the Tares will eventually be split amongst everyone else, but their is no "same congregation" because there is no "joining" or "joint' between the Org and Christendom.

    If tomorrow's Watchtower says differently, they will believe differently, but that issue hasn't come out yet, and I don't expect it ever will.
     
  20. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    There is certainly a hell Moz, because that's what scripture tells us, but it also tells us there will be different levels of our own making, and I suspect only the demons will be at the lowest level, but I cannot predict who will be lowered there anymore than I can predict who will be raised in heaven.

    I don't recall ever hearing a sermon where God tortures those in hell. I really think you need a fire and brimstone preacher for that, so I would suggest again the Westboro Baptist Church. You'll get an ear full of exactly what you expect to hear there.

    But this reminds me of a story.

    There once was a prison, full of prisoners in what could only be describes as the most horrendous of conditions. Each day any prisoner might find themselves beaten, drugged, dragged, hosed...you name it. Sometimes by each other, sometimes by the prison guards.

    Incredibly, despite this torture, none of the family members, prison guards, nor the prisoners thought it was better that the prisoners be put to death, even when they heard they might get a second chance during a resurrection and thus save the community and taxpayers a bundle of money.

    Dude, I think that would have been a disgusting concept, so let's just pray our prisons never fall prey to the tender mercies of Jehovah Witnesses.

    In any even, I've stayed up WAAAAAYYYY too long again and I have to work tomorrow.
     
Loading...