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Was Abu Talib a Muslim?

mojtaba

Active Member
بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم
All the Shi'ite scholars and some of the eminent Sunnite ones like Ibne Abil Hadid, the commentator of Nahjul Balaghah, Qastalani, in his book Irshad al-Sari and Zini Dahlan, in his annotations to the book Sirah Halabi, have regarded Abu Talib as being a Muslim. In the original Islamic sources too, there exist numerous evidences in support of this issue, which when studied leave us profoundly astonished and perplexed as to why Abu Talib finds himself the object of such unkindness and accusation?

How is it possible that one, who had defended the Noble Prophet (S) by his entire existence, and time after time had presented himself and his children as a shield for him in times of peril, be the object of such an allegation?

And here the discerning researchers have surmised that this wave of antagonism against Abu Talib is one that is political in nature and stems from the opposition of the evil lineage of Bani Umayyah to 'Ali (a.s.).

This is because it is not just Abu Talib, who due to his proximity with 'Ali (a.s.), has found himself to be an object of this onslaught; rather, we observe that in the history of Islam, whosoever happened to possess a close relation - in any manner whatsoever - with 'Ali (a.s.) had not remained protected from these foul and shabby offensives. In truth, Abu Talib had no crime to his name save that he was the father of 'Ali ibne Abi Talib - the great leader of Islam!

Here, we enumerate, only briefly, some varied arguments that bear a clear testimony to the faith of Abu Talib, and leave the details for books that have been particularly devoted to this issue:

Even prior to the proclamation of the prophethood of the Noble Prophet (S), Abu Talib had been well cognizant of the fact that his nephew would attain the rank of prophethood. This is because the historians have written that on one of the journeys that Abu Talib had undertaken to Egypt in the caravan of the Quraish, he had taken his twelve-year old nephew Muhammad, along with him.

In the course of this journey various extraordinary acts were witnessed from him; in addition, as soon as the caravan came across a monk by the name of Bahira - who had been engaged in worship in the monastery for years, possessed knowledge of the Old and New Testaments and used to be visited by the trade caravans who passed that way - Muhammad (S), who was not more than twelve years old then, attracted his attention. Bahira, after gazing at him deeply and profoundly, asked: To which of you does this child belong? Those around pointed to Abu Talib, who informed him that he was his nephew.

Bahira said: “This child has a brilliant future before him. He is the very prophet, whose prophethood has been prophesized by the Divine books and whose attributes I have read in them.”1

Even before this encounter, there had been other indications which made Abu Talib aware of the prophethood and the spirituality of the Noble Prophet (S).

As has been stated by the Sunni scholar Shahristani (the author of al-Milal Wal Nihal) and others, one year skies of Mecca withheld their rains and the city was caught in the grip of a severe drought. Abu Talib ordered his nephew, Muhammad, who was just a suckling then, to be brought to him. When the child, suntil wrapped in swaddling-clothes, was handed to him, he stood before the Ka'bah, raised the child upwards three times and each time beseeched: O' Lord! By the sake of this child, send down the blessed rains upon us.

It was not long before a cloud became visible above the horizon and soon covered the skies above Mecca; it then began to pour with such intensity that it was feared that the Ka'bah might suffer damage.

Shahristani then writes: This incident, which indicates Abu Talib's knowledge of his nephew's prophethood right from his infancy, proves that he believed in the Noble Prophet (S). Later, Abu Talib recited the following verses in connection with this incident:

وَ أَبْيَضُ يُسْتَسْقَى الْغَمَامُ بِوَجْهِهِ ثِمَالُ الْيَتَامَى عِصْمَةٌ لِلألْأَرَامِلِ‏.

“He is a luminous-faced one and it is for him that the clouds pour down rain he is the shelter of the orphans and the protector of the widows.”

يَلُوْذُ بِهِ الْهُلاَّكُ مِنْ آلِ هَاشِمٍ. فَهُمْ عِنْدَهُ فِي نِعْمَةٍ وَ فَوَاضِلَلٍ.

“Those from the Bani Hashim who face destruction seek refuge in him and it is by means of him that they find themselves receiving bounties and favours.”

وَ مِيْزَانُ صِدْقٍ لاَ يَخِيْسُ شَعِيْرَةً وَ وَزَّانٌ صِدْقٌ وَزْنُهُ غَيْرُ هَائِلٍل.

“He is that balance of justice that never violates (even) one grain of barley and he is a correct measurer whose weight and measurement are not to be feared for error.”

In addition to Shahristani, numerous eminent historians too have reported the incident of the people resorting to Abu Talib during the famine, and his entreaty to Allah (s.w.t.) by employing the honour of the Noble Prophet (S). 'Allamah Amini has mentioned this incident in his book, al-Ghadir, quoting it from the books Sharh Bukhari, al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, al-Khasais al-Kubra, Sharh Bahjah al-Mahafil, Sirah Halabi, Sirah Nabawi and Talabah al-Talib.2

In addition, certain well-known Islamic books contain some poems from Abu Talib, all of which have been gathered and this collection referred to as Diwan Abi Talib. Some of these poems are presented below:

وَ اللهِ لَنْ يَصِلُوْا إِلَيْكَ بِجَمْعِهِمْ حَتَّى أُوَسَّدَ فِي التُّرَابِ دَفِيْنًا.

“O' Nephew! The enemies shall never reach you until such time that Abu Talib has rested in the earth and taken the grave as his bed,”

فَاصْدَعْ بِأَامْرِكَ مَا عَلَيْكَ غَضَاضَةً وَ ابْشِرْ وَ قِرَّ بِذَاكَ مِنْهُ عُيُوْنًا.

“So accomplish your assignment and fear none give glad tidings and make the eyes joyous and cheerful.”

وَ دَعَوْتَنِيْ وَ زَعَمْتُ أَنَّكَ نَاصِحِيْ وَ لَقَدْ صَدَقْتَ وَ كُنْتَ قَبْلَ أَمِيْنًا.

“You invited me towards your faith and I know fully well that you are a sincere adviser to me and surely you invited and are trustworthy in your invitation.”

وَ لَقَدْ عَلِمْتُ أَانَّ دِيْنَ مُحَمَّدٍ مِنْ خَيْرِ أَدْيَانِ الْبَرِيَّةِ دِيْنًا.

“Indeed I have perceived that the religion of Muhammad is the most excellent of all religions.”3

أَ لَمْ تَعْلَمُوا أَنَّا وَجَدْنَا مُحَمَّداً نَبِيّاً كَمُوسَى خُطَّ فِي أَوَّلِ الْكُتُبِ.

“O' Quraish, do you not know that we have found Muhammad to be a prophet just as Musa was and his mention has been recorded in the Divine books?”

وَ أَنَّ عَلَيْهِ فِي الْعِبَادِ مَحَبَّةً وَ لاَ سِنَّ فِيْمَنْ خَصَّهُ اللهُ فِي الْحُبِّ.

“The servants of Allah (s.w.t.) possess a special fondness with respect to him and this is not out of place for one whom Allah (s.w.t.) has singled out for His love.”4

Ibne Abil Hadid, after presenting a great number of Abu Talib's poems (which Ibne Shahr Ashub, in his book Mutashabihat al-Qur’an, has claimed to be three thousand in number) says: After going through the entire collection of these poems, there does not remain a semblance of a doubt for us that Abu Talib had indeed believed in the religion of his nephew.

Traditions have been narrated from the Noble Prophet (S) which testify to the faith of his self-sacrificing uncle - Abu Talib. According to the author of the book Abu Talib: Mu’minu Quraysh, when Abu Talib passed away the Noble Prophet (S), after having escorted his funeral and as he mourned his death, said: O' My Father! O' Abu Talib!

How sad I am over your death? How can I ever forget the tragedy of your death? O' you who fostered me when I was an infant and accepted by invitation when I was a grown up; in proximity to you, I was as an eye is to its socket, and as a soul is to the body.5

Also, he (S) used to repeatedly confess:

مَا نَالَتْ مِنِّيْ قُرَيْشُ شَيْئًا حَتَّى مَاتَ أَبُو طَالِبٍ‏.

“The Quraish were unable to inconvenience me in any way until after the death of Abu Talib.”6

It is an indisputable fact that, years before Abu Talib's death, the Noble Prophet (S) had been ordered to refrain from establishing any kind of cordial relationship with the polytheists. In such a situation, exhibition of such fondness and affection towards Abu Talib on his (S) part indicates that he (S) had known that he was a monotheist. Or else, how could it be conceivable that while he prohibited others from befriending the polytheists he himself exhibited affection towards Abu Talib that reached the frontiers of love?

In traditions that have been narrated from the Ahlul Bayt (a.s.) too, there are abundant evidences that meet the eye which attest to Abu Talib's faith and sincerity. These traditions, mentioning all of which would only protract this discussion, contain rational and logical arguments, like the tradition of the fourth Imam (a.s.) in which it has been reported that the Imam (a.s.), in reply to a question, attests to the faith of Abu Talib and then says:

Honestly, I am amazed as to why some are given to imagine that Abu Talib was a disbeliever! Do they not realize that by harbouring such beliefs, they hurl taunts and sarcasms at Abu Talib and the Noble Prophet (S)? But has it not been prohibited in several verses of the Qur’an for a woman to continue to remain in the matrimony of her disbelieving spouse after she has accepted Islam? It is an incontrovertible fact that Fatimah Bint Asad, who had been of those who had taken a lead into Islam, had Abu Talib as her spouse all through her life.7

Apart from all these, if we were to be sceptical of all things, the one reality with respect to which none can harbour scepticism and doubt is that Abu Talib was of the most vociferous and intense supporters of Islam and the Noble Prophet (S), and his support was in such measure that it cannot be interpreted as stemming from consanguineous ties or tribal partianship.

The most manifest example of this being the incident of Shi'b Abi Talib which has been reported by all the historians; when the Quraish subjected the Noble Prophet (S) and the Muslims to an intense social, economic and political blockade and severed all connections with them, Abu Talib was the only supporter and defender of the Noble Prophet (S).

For three years he abandoned all his other work and, taking the Hashemites to a valley located between the mountains of Mecca and popularly known as Shi'b Abi Talib, settled down there. His self-sacrifice reached such an extent that in addition to constructing special towers for protection against the attacks of the Quraish, every night, he would move the Noble Prophet (S) to a different place to sleep and make his dear son 'Ali (a.s.) sleep in his place instead.

When 'Ali (a.s.) said: Dear father! Under these circumstances, I am bound to be killed, Abu Talib said: Dear son! Do not lose your forbearance. Every living thing advances towards death. I have sacrificed you for the son of 'Abdullah.

Interestingly, 'Ali (a.s.) responds to his father's words by saying: Dear father! These words of mine were not out of my apprehension of being killed in the path of Muhammad (S) rather, it was spoken since I wanted you to know how obedient I am to you and that I am fully prepared to help Ahmad.8

We are of the opinion that every person, who casts aside his prejudice and studies the gold lines of history about Abu Talib impartially would concur with Ibne Abil Hadid( a Sunni scholar ) and say:9

وَ لَوْ لاَ اأَبُو طَالِبٍ وَ ابْنُهُ لَمَا مَثَلَ الدِّيْنُ شَخِخْصاً فَقَامَا فَذَاكَ بِمَكَّةَ آوِى وَ حَامَىِي وَ هَذَا بِيَثْرِبَ جَسَّ الْحَمَاماً.

“If it was not for the presence of Abu Talib and his son, the religion (of Islam) would never have stayed in place and stood up aloft. Abu Talib rushed to the assistance of the Noble Prophet (S) in Mecca, while 'Ali (a.s.), in supporting Islam, plummeted into a whirlpool of death in Yathrib (Medinah)!”10

  • 1. An abstract from Sirah Ibn Hisham (vol. 1, pg. 191), Sirah Halabi (vol. 1, pg. 131) and other books.
  • 2. al-Ghadir, vol. 7, pg. 346
  • 3. Khazanah al-'Arab, Tarikh Ibn Kathir, Sharh of Nahjul Balagha Ibn Abil Hadid, Fath al-Bari, Bulugh al-'Arab, Tarikh Abi al-Fida, Sirah al-Nabawi etc.., as reported in al-Ghadir, vol. 8
  • 4. Ibid.
  • 5. Sheikh al-Abatih, quoting from the book Abu Talib: The Believer of the Quraish.
  • 6. Tabari, quoting from the book Abu Talib: The Believer from the Quraish.
  • 7. Kitab al-Hujjah; al-Darajat al-Rafi'ah quoting from al-Ghadir, vol. 8.
  • 8. al-Ghadir, vol. 8
  • 9. al-Ghadir, vol. 8
  • 10. Tafsir-e-Namuna, vol. 5, pg. 192
 

faroukfarouk

Active Member
Salaams brother.
So the Shias affirm that Abu Talib was a Muslim and he died a believer.
Before i comment on your post i have a question for you.
What about Abd Manaf?
Was he a believer as well?
Jazakallah in advance for your reply.
Salaams
faroukfarouk
 

mojtaba

Active Member
Salaams brother.
So the Shias affirm that Abu Talib was a Muslim and he died a believer.
Before i comment on your post i have a question for you.
What about Abd Manaf?
Was he a believer as well?
Jazakallah in advance for your reply.
Salaams
faroukfarouk

Salam brother.

Yes. All the Shi'ite scholars and also some of the eminent Sunnite ones have regarded Abu Talib as being a Muslim.

But about Abd Manaf:

Amirul-Mu'minin 'Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s.) said: "By Allah, neither my father ever worshipped the idols, nor my grandfather 'Abdul-Muttalib, nor his father Hashim, nor his father 'Abd Munaf. They prayed facing towards the Ka'bah and followed the religion of Ibrahim."

Sources:
Kamaluddin wa Tamamul-Ne'mah( a Shi'i book ), pg 174.
Beharol Anwar( a Shi'i book ), vol 15, pg 144.
 

mojtaba

Active Member
Abu Thalib is muslim or not..........Only Allah Know

is not our bussiness
Abu Talib, the father of Imam Ali (a), is among the many individuals who has been persecuted through distortions and alterations in the books of history. The only reason for this persecution is that he was the father of Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib (a), who in turn had many enemies amongst the hypocrites and the freed Umayyids by the prophet (pbuh). These groups, who were unable to match Imam Ali (a) in terms of virtue and achievement – because everyone knew that he was the first to embrace Islam and was the closest to the prophet, and moreover, as the verse of Mubahilah puts it, was the ‘nafs’ of the prophet himself - tried to at least bring him down a few levels by attributing disbelief (Kufr) to his father and saying that he died while in that state.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Bukhari :: Book 2 :: Volume 23 :: Hadith 442; Al-Janaa’iz

Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab from his father:
When the time of the death of Abu Talib approached, Allah’s Apostle went to him and found Abu Jahl bin Hisham and ‘Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya bin Al-Mughira by his side. Allah’s Apostle said to Abu Talib, “O uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, a sentence with which I shall be a witness (i.e. argue) for you before Allah. Abu Jahl and ‘Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya said, “O Abu Talib! Are you going to denounce the religion of Abdul Muttalib?” Allah’s Apostle kept on inviting Abu Talib to say it (i.e. ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’) while they (Abu Jahl and Abdullah) kept on repeating their statement till Abu Talib said as his last statement that he was on the religion of Abdul Muttalib and refused to say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.‘ (Then Allah’s Apostle said, “I will keep on asking Allah’s forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden (by Allah) to do so.” So Allah revealed (the verse) concerning him (i.e. It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for pagans even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of the fire (9.113).

2. Muslim :: Book 1 : Hadith 413; Kitab Al-Iman

Ibn ‘Abbas reported: The Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: Among the inhabitants of the Fire Abu Talib would have the least suffering, and he would be wearing two shoes (of Fire) which would boil his brain.
 

mojtaba

Active Member
Bukhari :: Book 2 :: Volume 23 :: Hadith 442; Al-Janaa’iz

Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab from his father:
When the time of the death of Abu Talib approached, Allah’s Apostle went to him and found Abu Jahl bin Hisham and ‘Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya bin Al-Mughira by his side. Allah’s Apostle said to Abu Talib, “O uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, a sentence with which I shall be a witness (i.e. argue) for you before Allah. Abu Jahl and ‘Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya said, “O Abu Talib! Are you going to denounce the religion of Abdul Muttalib?” Allah’s Apostle kept on inviting Abu Talib to say it (i.e. ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’) while they (Abu Jahl and Abdullah) kept on repeating their statement till Abu Talib said as his last statement that he was on the religion of Abdul Muttalib and refused to say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.‘ (Then Allah’s Apostle said, “I will keep on asking Allah’s forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden (by Allah) to do so.” So Allah revealed (the verse) concerning him (i.e. It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for pagans even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of the fire (9.113).

2. Muslim :: Book 1 : Hadith 413; Kitab Al-Iman

Ibn ‘Abbas reported: The Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: Among the inhabitants of the Fire Abu Talib would have the least suffering, and he would be wearing two shoes (of Fire) which would boil his brain.
Are you joking?

I am Shia, so talk with me by Shia sources, not by the fake Hadiths which were faked by Bani 'Umayyah and are in your Hadith books.

For your informatuon, according to your books, by the order of hypocrite Mu'awiyah, Muslims were cursing Imam Ali(peace be upon him). So, the Hadiths like the disbelieving of the father of Imam Ali, Hadhrat Abu Talib(peace be upon him) was hadiths which faked by the rulers of Bani 'Umayyah like Mu'awiyah. Yes, the enemies of Imam Ali tried to hurt Imam Ali, but thanks God, they could not.

The cursing of Imam Ali by hypocrite Mu'awiyah,

Muawiya appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said:

What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Imam Ali)?

Source, Sahih Muslim

Sobhanallah. What did happen for Muslims that cursed Imam Ali?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Are you joking?

I am Shia, so talk with me by Shia sources, not by the fake Hadiths which were faked by Bani 'Umayyah and are in your Hadith books.

For your informatuon, according to your books, by the order of hypocrite Mu'awiyah, Muslims were cursing Imam Ali(peace be upon him). So, the Hadiths like the disbelieving of the father of Imam Ali, Hadhrat Abu Talib(peace be upon him) was hadiths which faked by the rulers of Bani 'Umayyah like Mu'awiyah. Yes, the enemies of Imam Ali tried to hurt Imam Ali, but thanks God, they could not.

The cursing of Imam Ali by hypocrite Mu'awiyah,

Muawiya appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said:

What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Imam Ali)?

Source, Sahih Muslim

Sobhanallah. What did happen for Muslims that cursed Imam Ali?

I'm confused a bit. In the other threads you were quoting hadiths from bukhari, muslim and other known books to support your argument. I thought you believed them to be true, no?
 
All human who accept Tawhid/God Is One........will enter jannah, insha Allah

The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- said: "Whoever says there is no god but Allah enters Paradise even if he commits adultery and even if he steals (i.e. even if he commits great sins). {Sahih Hadith}

The Companions were talking about Malik ibn Dukhshum, and they wished that the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- would curse him so that he should die or meet some calamity. The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- said: "Does Malik ibn Dukhshum not testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah?" They said: "Yes, he no doubt says this but it is not in his heart." The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- replied: "No-one ever witnesses that there is no god but Allah and that I am Allah's Messenger and then enters the Fire nor is consumed by it." Anas said: "This hadith impressed me so much that I ordered my son to write it down and he did. (Sahih Hadith)

The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- said that Allah will save a man of his community the record of whose sins fills 99 books, each book extending as far as the eye can see. Against all this will be weighed the one good deed that he has, which is his witnessing that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger, and it will outweigh all the rest. The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- then said: "Nothing is of any weight with Allah's Name." (Sahih hadith)

will prophet uncle or prophet parent enter paradise or not, only God know.

i hope & i praying may Allah SWT give prophet uncle, prophet parent, all prophet family/friends and all muslim ummah from human and jinn race the highest level of jannah paradise in afterlife........ Ammiiiinnnnnnnnn
 

mojtaba

Active Member
I'm confused a bit. In the other threads you were quoting hadiths from bukhari, muslim and other known books to support your argument. I thought you believed them to be true, no?
Dear brother, because you are Sunni and also, probably the most other Muslim members of the Islam directory in RF are Sunni, I have proved my opinions by Sunni authentic sources.

Indeed, Shias use from their own authentic Hadiths for their believes, not the Hadiths which are in Sunni books.

Following is the saying of a Sunni Scholar(ابن حزم الاندلسي),
_لا معني لاحتجاجنا عليهم برواياتنا فهم لايصدقونها و لا معني لاحتجاجهم علينا برواياتهم فنحن لا نصدقها و انما يجب ان يحتج الخصوم بعضهم علي بعض بما يصدقه الذي تقام عليه الحجه به

الفصل في الأهواء والملل
والنحل:ج4،ص159​

It is not correct that we(Sunnis) discuss against them(Shias) with our traditions. Because they(Shias) do not acknowledge them.
And it is not correct that they(Shias) discuss against us(Sunnis) by their traditions. Because we(Sunnis) do not acknowledge them(Shia traditions).

It is necessary that each one of the disputants discuss against the other by what the other acknowledge it.( i.e., Sunnis should use Shia Hadiths when they are discussing with Shias, and vise versa.)
Source, Al-fasl felAhwa walMilali walMihal(Al-Fasl fi al-Ahwa' wa al-Milal wa al-Mihal, v4, p159)

When there are fake traditions in a Sunni books about the disbelief of Hadhrat Abu Talib(peace be upon him), in the case that I am discussing with a dear Sunni, I should bring for him/her a authentic proof about the faith of Hadhrat Abu Talib from Sunni books. So I brought those poems of Abu Talib which prove that he was Muslim.

Good luck, brother!
 

mojtaba

Active Member
In addition to what I mentioned about the true faith of Hadhrat Abu Talib, father of Imam Ali, it should be said that he used to encourage others to follow Allah and Prophet Muhammad and help Muslims.

Hakim, in his book, al-Mustadrak Ala Sahihayn has written,


عن ابن إسحاق قال: قال أبو طالب أبياتا للنجاشي يحضّه على حسن جوارهم والدفع عنهم.
ليعلم خيار الناس أنّ محمدا *** وزير لموسى والمسيح ابن مريم
أتانا بهدي مثل ما أتيا به *** فكلٌّ بأمر الله يهدي ويعصم​

Abu Talib said ff poetic verses to an-Najjashi( Christian ruler of al-Habashah, who then converted to the Islam), encouraging him to behaviour well with Muslims and defend from them(ie, Muslims who went to Habashah, according to the order of Prophet)

The good people should know that Muhammad is a Minister for Moses and Messiah, son of Mary(i.e., Muhammad is a Prophet, like them)

He has brought to us a guide, like what both of them brought/ So all of them guide to the order of Allah and have also fasted to it.

Source, Al-Mustadrak AlasSahihayn, vol2, pg. 680

Also, it is mentioned in Sunni authentic books that, before the Bi'thah of Prophet(ie, before his choosing for Messengership) when it did not rain for very days, Polytheists of Quraysh were invoking their idols for raining. But see the doing of Muwahhid(Monotheist) Abu Talib(peace be upon him) who knew and believed in the Messengership of Rasulallah before his Bi'thah.

وقال إبراهيم بن محمد الشافعي ، عن أبيه ، عن أبان بن الوليد ، عن أبان بن تغلب ، قال: حدثني جلهمة بن عرفطة
.....
حتى انتهيت إلى المسجد الحرام وإذا قريش عزين ، قد ارتفعت لهم ضوضاء يستسقون ، فقائل منهم يقول : اعتمدوا اللات والعزى ، وقائل يقول : اعتمدوا المناة الثالثة الأخرى .
وقال شيخ وسيم قسيم حسن الوجه جيد الرأي : أنى تؤفكون وفيكم باقيةإبراهيم عليه السلام وسلالة إسماعيل ؟قالوا له : كأنك عنيت أبا طالب . قال : إيها . فقاموا بأجمعهم ، وقمت معهم فدققنا عليه بابه ، فخرج إلينا رجل حسن الوجه مصفر ، عليه إزار قد اتشح به ، فثاروا إليه فقالوا : يا أبا طالبأقحط الوادي ، وأجدب العباد فهلم فاستسق ، فقال : رويدكم زوال الشمس وهبوب الريح ، فلما زاغت الشمس أوكادت ، خرج أبو طالب معه غلام كأنه شمس دجن تجلت عنه سحابة قتماء ، وحوله أغيلمة ، فأخذه أبو طالب فألصق ظهره بالكعبة ، ولاذ بأصبعه الغلام ، وبصبصت الأغيلمة حوله وما في السماء قزعة ، فأقبل السحاب من ههنا وههنا وأغدق واغدودق وانفجر له الوادي ، وأخصب النادي والبادي ، وفي ذلك يقول أبو طالب :

وأبيض يستسقى الغمام بوجهه ربيع اليتامى عصمة للأرامل
يطيف به الهلاك من آل هاشم فهم عنده في نعمة وفضائل .
Jalhamah ibn 'Urfotah has narrated, I reached to the Masjid al-Haram, and saw that the people of Quraysh were invoking loudly to it rains. So, one of them was saying, 'pleade with Lat and 'Ozza(two idols of Mushrikin)'. And another one was saying, 'pleade with Manat idol, the third, the other.'
A handsome old man who had good ideas said, 'How are you deluded? while there are with you the reminder of Abraham(pbuh) and the progeny of Isma'il?!'
They asked from that old man,' Do you mean Abu Talib? ' He replied, 'Yes'.
All of us then went toward the house of Abu Talib and knocked on the door.
So a handsome man came out to us. People went towards him and said to him, " O Abu Talib! The lands have become waterless and the people are in starvation. So come (to Masjid al-Haram) and then pleade with Allah for raining. "
Abu Talib replied," When the sun sets and the wind calms, I would come."

When the sun set or it was near the sunset, Abu Talib came out from his house and was with him a son who was like a shrining sun(ie, Prophet Muhammad), and other youth were also with him.
Abu Talib took him(Prophet Muhammad) and stuck his(Prophet) back on the wall of Ka'bah and took his armpit(ie, rose up the hands of Prophet for invoking Allah, Jalla Jalalohoo wa 'Azoma Sha'nohoo) while the youth were around him and there was not any cloud in the sky. Then, the clouds gathered together from different sides and it then rained abundantly until the desert became full of water.

So, Abu Talib recited these poetic verses,
And a white (face person) (i.e. the Prophet) that through his honoured face (to Allah), people ask from the clouds to rain / and (he is) who takes care of the orphans and is the guardian of widows
......
Sunni sources,
1.Seyr A'lam al-Nobala' by Shamsuddin al-Zahabi
2.Al-Khasa'isul Kubra by Soyuti, vol 1, pg. 146
...etc.

These poetic verses have been mentioned in Sahih Bukhri, for Abu Talib(peace be upon him),
وَقَالَ عُمَرُ بْنُ حَمْزَةَ حَدَّثَنَا سَالِمٌ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، رُبَّمَا ذَكَرْتُ قَوْلَ الشَّاعِرِ وَأَنَا أَنْظُرُ، إِلَى وَجْهِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَسْتَسْقِي، فَمَا يَنْزِلُ حَتَّى يَجِيشَ كُلُّ مِيزَابٍ‏.‏ وَأَبْيَضَ يُسْتَسْقَى الْغَمَامُ بِوَجْهِهِ ثِمَالَ الْيَتَامَى عِصْمَةً لِلأَرَامِلِ وَهْوَ قَوْلُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ‏.‏​
Salim's father (Ibn `Umar) said, "The following poetic verse occurred to my mind while I was looking at the face of the Prophet (p.b.u.h) while he was praying for rain. He did not get down till the rain water flowed profusely from every roof-gutter: And a white (face person) whom is requested to pray for rain and who takes care of the orphans and is the guardian of widows . . . And these were the words of Abu Talib."
Source,Sahih al-Bukhari, Book of Invoking Allah for Rain (Istisqaa), Hadith 4.

This doing of Hadhrat Abu Talib remember to me this saying of Imam Ali,

"By Allah, neither my father ever worshipped the idols, nor my grandfather 'Abdul-Muttalib, nor his father Hashim, nor his father 'Abd Munaf. They prayed facing towards the Ka'bah and followed the religion of Ibrahim."

Source:
Kamaluddin wa Tamamul-Ne'mah( a Shi'i book ), pg 174.

So remains no doubt that Abu Talib was Muslim and Muwahhid, also before Islam.
 
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mojtaba

Active Member
All human who accept Tawhid/God Is One........will enter jannah, insha Allah

The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- said: "Whoever says there is no god but Allah enters Paradise even if he commits adultery and even if he steals (i.e. even if he commits great sins). {Sahih Hadith}

The Companions were talking about Malik ibn Dukhshum, and they wished that the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- would curse him so that he should die or meet some calamity. The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- said: "Does Malik ibn Dukhshum not testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah?" They said: "Yes, he no doubt says this but it is not in his heart." The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- replied: "No-one ever witnesses that there is no god but Allah and that I am Allah's Messenger and then enters the Fire nor is consumed by it." Anas said: "This hadith impressed me so much that I ordered my son to write it down and he did. (Sahih Hadith)

The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- said that Allah will save a man of his community the record of whose sins fills 99 books, each book extending as far as the eye can see. Against all this will be weighed the one good deed that he has, which is his witnessing that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger, and it will outweigh all the rest. The Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- then said: "Nothing is of any weight with Allah's Name." (Sahih hadith)

will prophet uncle or prophet parent enter paradise or not, only God know.

i hope & i praying may Allah SWT give prophet uncle, prophet parent, all prophet family/friends and all muslim ummah from human and jinn race the highest level of jannah paradise in afterlife........ Ammiiiinnnnnnnnn
I think that the Hadiths which you have mentioned oppose the ff verses of Holy Qur'an,

Chapter 29
1.Alif Lam Mim

2.Do the people suppose that they will be let off because they say, ‘We have faith,’ and they will not be tested?

3.Certainly We tested those who were before them. So Allah shall surely ascertain those who are truthful, and He shall surely ascertain the liars.

3:142
Do you suppose that you would enter paradise, while Allah has not yet ascertained those of you who have waged jihad and He has not ascertained the steadfast?

1:214
Do you suppose that you will enter paradise though there has not yet come to you the like of [what befell] those who went before you? Stress and distress befell them and they were convulsed until the apostle and the faithful who were with him said, ‘When will Allah’s help [come]?’ Behold! Allah’s help is indeed near!

Also, it should be said that according to the belief of Shias, the parents of Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his pure progeny) were Monotheist and never worshipped the idols. They prayed facing towards the Ka'bah and followed the religion of Abraham."
 
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TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What are we going to benefit as Muslim individuals on whether abu Talib or any other person was a Muslim or not? how would that benefit us today?

There might be some of the descendants of ahul albait who are misguided or even kuffar. No?

Thank you.
 

mojtaba

Active Member
What are we going to benefit as Muslim individuals on whether abu Talib or any other person was a Muslim or not? how would that benefit us today?

There might be some of the descendants of ahul albait who are misguided or even kuffar. No?

Thank you.
You first talked about this issue in another thread.
Because I wanted to share with you the proofs of the believing of Hadhrat Abu Talib which are in Sunni authentic sources, I posted here about the issue.

I finish my saying by this verse of Holy Qur'an, 2:102

Solomon disbelieved not, but the Satans disbelieved
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You first talked about this issue in another thread.
Because I wanted to share with you the proofs of the believing of Hadhrat Abu Talib which are in Sunni authentic sources, I posted here about the issue.

I finish my saying by this verse of Holy Qur'an, 2:102

Solomon disbelieved not, but the Satans disbelieved

lol, so i'm satan now? no problem, i forgive you. :)

By the way, this thread is here since last year, so i don't think it was a reply to my recent comment.

I stand with what i said before about Abu Talib because Prophet Mohamed already mentioned he was in hell, and it's a hadith from sunni sources which you accept some and reject other depending on whether it agree with your theory or not.
 

mojtaba

Active Member
lol, so i'm satan now? no problem, i forgive you. :)

By the way, this thread is here since last year, so i don't think it was a reply to my recent comment.

I stand with what i said before about Abu Talib because Prophet Mohamed already mentioned he was in hell, and it's a hadith from sunni sources which you accept some and reject other depending on whether it agree with your theory or not.
I do not need your forgiveness. Because I did not mean you. I meant those who made those fake hadiths, who are now in the Hell.

If you review my posts, I have said to you, brother, dear brother, etc.

I made this thread due to a same issue that another Sunni member of the RF mentioned.
But other posts are due to your posts.

Prophet Muhammad(peace be uppn him and his pure Progeny) did not say such sayings. The enemies of Imam Ali made such fake hadiths.

Dear brother, see and then follow the evidences and proofs. See my next post...
Bi 'Awnillah I will prove that Hadiths are fake and Satanic.
 
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mojtaba

Active Member
Bukhari :: Book 2 :: Volume 23 :: Hadith 442; Al-Janaa’iz

Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab from his father:
When the time of the death of Abu Talib approached, Allah’s Apostle went to him and found Abu Jahl bin Hisham and ‘Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya bin Al-Mughira by his side. Allah’s Apostle said to Abu Talib, “O uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, a sentence with which I shall be a witness (i.e. argue) for you before Allah. Abu Jahl and ‘Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya said, “O Abu Talib! Are you going to denounce the religion of Abdul Muttalib?” Allah’s Apostle kept on inviting Abu Talib to say it (i.e. ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’) while they (Abu Jahl and Abdullah) kept on repeating their statement till Abu Talib said as his last statement that he was on the religion of Abdul Muttalib and refused to say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.‘ (Then Allah’s Apostle said, “I will keep on asking Allah’s forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden (by Allah) to do so.” So Allah revealed (the verse) concerning him (i.e. It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for pagans even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of the fire (9.113).
Thanks God, those who made this fake hadith was foolish.

The hadith is fake. Because Hadhrat Abu Talib past away 3 yrs before the Migration of the Prophet and Muslims to Medina. Indeed he past away in Mecca.

Keep in mind that the verse which is in the hadith, is in the Sura Bira'a(Chapter 9). According to both Sahih Bukhari and Muslim, Sura Bira'a(Tauba) is the last Sura which was revealed to Prophet Muhammad. See, Sahih al-Bukhari/ Sahih Muslim . So, Sura Bira'a is Madaniyyah and was revealed at 9 A.H., but Hadhrat Abu Talib died in Mecca, 3 yrs before the Migration to Medina.

So, between the death day of Hadhrat Abu Talib( 3 yrs before Migration ) and the time of revelation of the Sura Bira'a( 9 A.H., i.e., after Migration ), there are 12 years!!!

Also, it can not be true that we say that, after 12 yrs, this verse was revealed and then Prophet did not ask Allah to forgive Hadhrat Abu Talib. Because according to saying of a group of Sunni great Scholars, the ff verse was revealed at the 2 A.H., 58:33

Thou shalt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day who are loving to anyone who opposes. God and His Messenger, not though they were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their clan.

References,
1.Al-Jami' Li Ahkamil-Ghur'an by al-Ghertebi, v 17, p 307.
2.Tafsirel Ghur'anil 'Azim by Ibn Kathir, V 4, P 33.

It is obvious that when a person asks Allah for forgiveness of another one, this proves that who asks Allah's forgiveness for the other one, indeed loves him.

So, according to this hadith, Prophet Muhammad Na'uzubillah opposed Allah's order during 7 yrs(from 2 A.H. to 9 A.H.). Can you accept this?

2. Muslim :: Book 1 : Hadith 413; Kitab Al-Iman

Ibn ‘Abbas reported: The Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: Among the inhabitants of the Fire Abu Talib would have the least suffering, and he would be wearing two shoes (of Fire) which would boil his brain.
It first should be said that why this hadith says that Hadhrat Abu Talib would have the least suffering in the Hell!

According to hadiths of both Sahih Bukhari and Muslim, because of the good deeds of Hadhrat Abu Talib, Prophet Muhammad helped him and decreased his suffering, so that he would have the least suffering in the fire! See, Sahih Muslim/ Sahih Bukhari

But those hadiths oppose the verses of Holy Quran. Because the hadiths say that Prophet has decreased the suffering of Hadhrat Abu Talib because of his good deeds.(I found him in the lowest part of the Fire and I brought him to the shallow part.)

But on the contrary, Allah Ta'ala says that the good deeds of the Mushrikin and disbelievers (Polytheists and disbelievers) are failed and Allah would not decrease their suffering in the fire.

9:17
The polytheists may not maintain Allah’s mosques while they are witness to their own disbelief. Their works have failed, and they shall remain in the Fire [forever].

Chapter 2
161. Indeed those who disbelieve and die while they are faithless—it is they on whom shall be the curse of Allah, the angels and all mankind.
162.They will remain in it forever and their suffering shall not be lightened, nor will they be granted any respite.

Also, according to Quran and Sunnah, only believers reach the intercession of the intercessors, and those who are in the Hell can not reach it,

40.[They will be] in gardens, questioning
41.the guilty:
42.‘What drew you into Hell?
....
48.So the intercession of the intercessors will not avail them

Also Prophet has said,
وشفاعتي لِمَنْ شَهِدَ أَنْ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ الله مُخْلِصاً يُصَدِّقُ قَلْبُهُ لِسَانَهُ وَلِسَانُهُ قَلْبَهُ.​
"My intercession is for those who has testified sincerely that there is no god but Allah."

Hakim and Haythami have said that this Hadith is Sahih.(See, alMustadrak by Hakim, v1, p141/ and Majma'uzZawa'id by Haythami, v10, p404)

So, remains no doubt that the hadiths which are about the disbelief of Hadhrat Abu Talib are fake. Because on the contrary the hadiths, the verses and the Sahih Sunnah say that the good deeds of disbelievers are failed and their suffering would not be lightened and the intercession of Prophet would not reach to those who have not testified that there is no god but Allah.

Good luck brother.
 
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