Warning, Don't Believe in Christianity!!

[KBC1963]

I totally respect that. I was referring more to your criticism of Buddha and stuff. I doen't make sense to me that you would try and prove Buddha as a false prophet using your own holy book. The only people that the bible is going to convince are the ones who already believe in it, so that's circular reasoning

I know, but to give you a clearer understanding of what I was trying to get across I will say it this way, the bible and the GOD of that book are much more proveable than any other religion on earth so by going with that as a basis for judgement of other religions I have more support than another religion does when they say the bible is false.
Now I do agree that the reasoning is circular but the odds I am wrong as compared to other religions is almost not possible when you compare the proveable things of the bible against any other religious book.

At some point each of us chooses a foundation of belief and if it was all easily proveable then it wouldnt be a belief per se but rather common knowledge. I have taken a stand with my beliefs because I have looked at all the possibilities for each religion and found them all short except for the bible but in any case I don't know it all and I am willing to hear any possibilities that I may not have thought of, so I say my thoughts and await for the counter argument and see how my statement measures up to the thoughts of the others and be it circular or not my foundation came after many years of research into each religion and I now reason according to what the bible says.
So I await your ideas and will compare their merit and who knows you may be an einstien under cover but whatever you may be I will give the time to consider what you say and not just shoot it down without checking the points.

 

[Pah]

"Each of us believes in something whether it be GOD or nature or whatever and each of us is free to choose as we will so I will choose the GOD of the bible since his ways are the ones that I wish to be governed by"

I am not governed by a Christian or any other god. I am not goverened by nature which is understood by science nor is science itself an idol.

I choose to be goverened by the US Constitution which has purpose and proscribed conduct in the authority it establishes for the people and the government. "Choice" is an appropiate term becuase I have had extensive travel and stay in Europe and somewhat less in Asia. I returned to America because of it's benefits

Nothing, including any religious system, matches the depth of day-to-day living available under American law, in my opinion.

 

[Ardhanariswar]

Gerani, are you saying that you should accept the NT but not the OT?

not really. i view them both in different light.

I accept them both as holy scriptures written by man to reveal God's sacred teachings. i find symbolism everwhere in the bible, thast why i cannot stand fundamentalists who nit pick at everything.

i see the bible is also full of writers who needed to explain things that they did not understand (creation, two stories, adam and eve, and the 7 day creation, and other things).

I see the bible as a mysterious source, is it true? i dont htink so. is it full of symbolism? ya, i think so. morals and fuzzy spiritual stuff? yes.

im sorry if i mis lead you by thinking that I treated the OT as a commanding police officer, and the NT as a psychologist.

the only part about the bible i like is jesus' parables. how they teach, present the facts and let the reader make conclusions on his own.

all the rest of the bible blatanly say: you must NOT do this or else this will happen and you will burn! no no no.

**********************


i also dont like christianity for the way that one of thier goals is to convert. its just rotten. i really really really dislike it when people advertise God like a soft drink....argh!

 

[Linus]

The only reason people "advertise God like a soft drink" is probably because they are just excited. Im sure they dont mean to be that way, but can you blame them?They are probably just excited to be fullfilling a command that they believe Jesus gave them. All they are doing is doing what the Bible says.

But I agree with you in that sometimes we christians can get a little too preachy when the time isn't right.

 

[Pah]

The only reason people "advertise God like a soft drink" is probably because they are just excited. Im sure they dont mean to be that way, but can you blame them?They are probably just excited to be fullfilling a command that they believe Jesus gave them. All they are doing is doing what the Bible says.

But I agree with you in that sometimes we christians can get a little too preachy when the time isn't right.

I get a different connatation but still find some forgiveness for the "salesman"

It is the "corporate" hierarchy that largely does the "market analysis", that seeks to set up a "monopoly" in society, that chooses to offer "products of many flavors, that desires a larger "market share", and seeks "political power" to gain advantage within and without the "corporation".

 

[Linus]

I think it is simply a command that we are given. Jesus said to go make disciples of all nations, so we are doing that. Not only that, but we want everyone to realize the rewards of living a life devoted to God. Some people don't see it, so we try harder.

 

[Ceridwen018]

If I were to go out and try to 'convert' people to Atheism, it would be recieved in a much different way than a witnessing Christian. Why is that do you think?

 

[Ardhanariswar]

why do you think ceridwen? your a godless amphibiean (catch the sarcasm).

people these days stereotype that atheists are heathans. close to satanists. its just not true. ive known athiests and they are some of the nicest people!

i dont think being labeled an athiest on earth will make God kick them out. i think atheists are accpeted if they do well on earth. earth to me is like a test. to see if we are good and fuzzy!

 

[Linus]

I agree. That the reason people might look down on others converting to atheism might be because atheists get a bad rap. Not to mention atheists are in the minority in society today, and most people would think that it would be wrong to convert to that belief.

 

[KBC1963]

I am not governed by a Christian or any other god. I am not governed by nature which is understood by science nor is science itself an idol.
I choose to be goverened by the US Constitution which has purpose and proscribed conduct in the authority it establishes for the people and the government. "Choice" is an appropiate term becuase I have had extensive travel and stay in Europe and somewhat less in Asia. I returned to America because of it's benefits
Nothing, including any religious system, matches the depth of day-to-day living available under American law, in my opinion.

Hmmm it seems I have read this type of attitude before now lets see where was that ........

1Sa 10:19
...And ye have this day rejected your God; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us.
1Sa 12:17
...that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.
1Sa 12:19
...for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king.

I wonder what your words will be when the judgement comes.....

1Sa 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he will also rejected thee

I also thought I might point out that the constitution was originally created by christians using GOD's ideas for government so to say you will not be governed by GOD but will be governed by the constitution which was based on GOD is kinda funny, It would be like saying to your father no I won't obey you but yet you will obey the rules that were based on him.

I would also point out that no other nation ever based thier systems on GOD's except us so its no wonder your not happy anywhere else.

 

[Ceridwen018]

That is, if you believe in god and the bible in the first place and therefore that a judgement day is indeed coming. Otherwise, that was all pretty pointless.

 

[Pah]

I am not governed by a Christian or any other god. I am not governed by nature which is understood by science nor is science itself an idol.
I choose to be goverened by the US Constitution which has purpose and proscribed conduct in the authority it establishes for the people and the government. "Choice" is an appropiate term becuase I have had extensive travel and stay in Europe and somewhat less in Asia. I returned to America because of it's benefits
Nothing, including any religious system, matches the depth of day-to-day living available under American law, in my opinion.

Hmmm it seems I have read this type of attitude before now lets see where was that ........

1Sa 10:19
...And ye have this day rejected your God; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us.
1Sa 12:17
...that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.
1Sa 12:19
...for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king.

I wonder what your words will be when the judgement comes.....

1Sa 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he will also rejected thee

It is a huge assumption that there will be a day of judgement. but you're welcome to make that assumption.

 

[Linus]

The United States government was founded on the belief in God. So wouldn't you say that the fundamental U.S. laws (or any nation's laws for that matter) are of a spiritual nature? If there is no God, then what is the point of law?

 

[KBC1963]

The United States government was founded on the belief in God. So wouldn't you say that the fundamental U.S. laws (or any nation's laws for that matter) are of a spiritual nature? If there is no God, then what is the point of law?

since our constitution was based on biblical principals and those principles were based on spiritual things then yea they are spiritually based.

the point of any law based society is to keep the peace basicly.
"so the lazy people wont have to get up every day and bury another pile of dead people."

 

[Ceridwen018]

The United States government was founded on principles that are shared by some religions, not on a belief in god. In truth, most of our 'founding fathers' were deists. This is especially highlighted in their insistence of a separate church and state. The point of the law without god is the same as the point of the law with god--to ensure order, safety and equality.

 

[Pah]

The United States government was founded on the belief in God. So wouldn't you say that the fundamental U.S. laws (or any nation's laws for that matter) are of a spiritual nature? If there is no God, then what is the point of law?

I will disagree that the government was founded ON a beleif in God. but recognize that it was founded by those who beleived in God. The is nothing in the Constitution that recognizes God and in fact makes a provision that beleif is not to be a factor in those who hold office.

I do not recognize the "spiritual" aspect of law nor is our day-to-day laws anything but those derived from common law. It is all secular

The point of law is to govern society and ours does so under its own authority and not of any god or religious body or sacred writing.

 

[Pah]

...
since our constitution was based on biblical principals and those principles were based on spiritual things then yea they are spiritually based.

Our criminal laws are not based on Biblical principles. When have you seen a law that takes the life of an unruly child. When has an adulterer been stoned under our criminal laws. An "eye for an eye" is only enforced for capital crimes - most murders do not quaily for death by society. The "Law of God"
is absent from our laws.

Our Constitution was not based on Biblical principle but on an advanced form of Republician rule.

 

[KBC1963]

The laws when they were created for the constitution were very much toned down from old testament ways by those that lived life based on the new testament but never the less our original laws were much harsher then than they are now since most of it has been amended away over time but you can see the original laws of each state as they were in the beginning and you will see they come much closer to GOD's ways.

 

[Pah]

The laws when they were created for the constitution were very much toned down from old testament ways by those that lived life based on the new testament but never the less our original laws were much harsher then than they are now since most of it has been amended away over time but you can see the original laws of each state as they were in the beginning and you will see they come much closer to GOD's ways.

Could you provide a link to bolster your contention?


Here is mine.

http://www.solgroup.com/trust/page22.html

Q. WAS THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA BASED ON THE COMMON LAW?

A. Yes. The Constitution of the united States of America originated as a Common Law document. That was the underlying law the founding fathers based the entire structure of our nation upon. It was the law of the land until the 1938 supreme Court ruling (Erie Railroad) which statutorized the Common Law.

"It is never to be forgotten that in the construction of the
language of the Constitution, we are to place ourselves as
nearly as possible in the condition of the men who framed
that instrument." Ex Parte Bain. 12 U.S. 1 7 S. Ct. 781.

"We are bound to interpret the Constitution in the light of
the law as it existed at the time it was adopted." Mattos
v. U.S. 156 U.S. 237 at 243.

"It must be interpreted in the light of Common Law, the
principles and history of which were familiarly known to
the framers of the Constitution. The language of the
Constitution could not be understood without reference to
the Common Law." U.S. v. Wong Kim. Ark. 169 U.S. 649.18 S.
Ct. 456.

"In this, as in other respects, (a Constitutional provision)
must be interpreted in the light of the Common Law, the
principles and history of which were familiarly known to
the framers of the Constitution..." Minor v. Happersett. 21
Wall. 162.

"The language of the Constitution, as has been well said,
could not be understood without reference to the Common
Law." 1 Kent. Comm. 336, Kepner v. U.S. 195 U.S. 100 at
125.

....

Q. MUST THE STATE CONSTITUTIONS AND STATE LAWS CONFORM AND COMPLY WITH THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES?

A. Yes. State Constitutions and State laws must be in compliance with, and in conformity to, the Constitution of the united States of America for that State to be acceptable as one of the sovereign states of the union of the united States of America.

"Provided, the Constitution to be formed in virtue of the
authority herein given, shall be republican, and consistent
with the Constitution of the united States; that it shall
contain the fundamental principles of civil and religious
Liberty; conformable to the provisions of the Constitution
of the United States." Enabling Act of Congress. Feb. 20,
1811. C.21. 2 U.S. Statute 641.

A definition of common law

http://www.protectyourstuff.com/common.law.htm

COMMON LAW. As distinguished from law created by the enactment of legislatures, the common law comprises the body of these principles and rules of action, relating to the government and security of persons and property, which derive their authority solely from usage's and customs of immemorial antiquity, or from the judgments and decrees of the courts recognizing, affirming, and enforcing such usage's and customs; and, in this sense, particularly the ancient unwritten law of England. The "common law" is all the statutory and case law background of England and the American colonies before the American revolution. People v. Rehman, 253 C.A. 2d 119, 61 Cal. Rptr. 65, 85. "Common law" consists of those principles, usage and rules of action applicable to government and security of persons and property which do not rest for their authority upon any express and positive declaration of the will of the legislature. Bishop v. U.S., D.C. Tex., 334, F. Supp. 415, 418.

As distinguished from ecclesiastical law, it is the system of jurisprudence administered by the purely secular tribunals.

 

[KBC1963]

Pah,
I don't have an online link to original constitutions but I did study original law many years ago and as you have shown they were indeed based on common law which meant that a jury could judge not only guilty or not guilty verdicts but could also judge the law itself,as you were so kind to bring some of the writings in your post, let me point out that all the people of the new world were christians and they came from england and england had a large and growing population of christians that were trying to break away from catholocism so they were considered criminals and as such england sought to get rid of them by sending them to the america's,
now there is the key to those peoples motives concerning seperation of church and state but at the same time they were trying to follow the laws as ascribed in the bible.

the common law comprises the body of these principles and rules of action....which derive their authority solely from usage's and customs of immemorial antiquity

the part that you won't see when looking at the constitutions is the actual cases and the punishments dealt, I was able to read reprints of a pile of cases when I investigating the differences between original common law cases and admiralty law that we now live under and much of it was very harsh and it depended alot on how the people felt about a certain thing at the time, here are a few of the things I remember that in todays world would be unthinkable; they had laws against busybodies or women that told tales and it wasnt uncommon to see people put in the stocks for it.
This relates to the new testament;

1Ti 5:13 - And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.

also let me pull the ringer out now.... the witch trials, this was also a bible based law,This relates to the old testament;

Ex 22:18 - Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

and just how many were burned at the stake I could only guess.
So even though I don't now have direct links to alot of that info on the beginnings of american law I have shown items that are well reported on and should be common knowledge by anyone who has had history in school, so for anyone to say that many of our original laws didn't come straight out of the bible apparently haven't read much about it.

The biggest change in our laws came when the bible based common law was shifted to an admiralty based law which took away the jury's right to judge the law as well as the verdict which is a shame as that was intended to ensure that no american could be dealt with in the same manner as they did in england with laws that worked only for the rich and specificaly against the poor.