But they do pretend to have a democracy.
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Wagner chief Prigozhin killed in Plane Crash
- Thread starter Altfish
- Start date
Both he and Putin are reaping what they sowed.
For Putin it will last longer still. Invading Ukraine was a terrible move for his reputation. Prigozhin's death will further aggravate the damage.
He may have had little choice in order to discourage criticism and rebellion... but the price paid will include growing reluctance to support him in the first place, and renewed efforts at having the means to bypass his existence entirely.
There is also the matter of Wagner itself. It has been instrumental in Ukraine, Africa and elsewhere. How will they react in the medium term to this piece of news? How long will it be before they conclude that by far their best defense against being perceived as "betrayers" of Putin's trust is not pursuing that trust to begin with?
Optics concerns aside, this is certainly a very bad time for Putin to be Putin.
For Putin it will last longer still. Invading Ukraine was a terrible move for his reputation. Prigozhin's death will further aggravate the damage.
He may have had little choice in order to discourage criticism and rebellion... but the price paid will include growing reluctance to support him in the first place, and renewed efforts at having the means to bypass his existence entirely.
There is also the matter of Wagner itself. It has been instrumental in Ukraine, Africa and elsewhere. How will they react in the medium term to this piece of news? How long will it be before they conclude that by far their best defense against being perceived as "betrayers" of Putin's trust is not pursuing that trust to begin with?
Optics concerns aside, this is certainly a very bad time for Putin to be Putin.
You favor something that would almost inevitably lead to thousands or possibly tens of thousands of civilian deaths, not to mention likely war crimes against civilians?
This is why I find it concerning when I see arguments that seem to reduce distant countries to abstractions and geopolitical assets.
Tis a lesser evil than having
Russia continue unified.
It seems that your concern is limited to the
short term. Lives wrongfully lost is bad.
But worse is a vicious predatory aggressive
nuclear power with century long designs
on its neighbors.
Russia, death, & war crimes go hand in hand.
I want to see those horrors minimized.
Think of how many Ukrainians & Russians
died in the latest "special military operation".
It would be great to avoid more of those.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Ya, I think you may be right based on what Steele was told.
That involves major assumptions, mainly that a replacement to Putin's regime couldn't be less bellicose without the need for a civil war.
I don't think a civil war is the only way to avoid more of those. Also, my concern is definitely not limited to the short term considering how long civil wars can last and their decades-long effects.
Look at the effects of the Syrian civil war and the resultant humanitarian and refugee crisis. A civil war in Russia could have similar effects on a far larger scale, with the additional issue of militant groups' possible acquisition of nukes.
We all make assumptions....even you.
But the one above is off base.
I favor not a replacement for Putin's regime.
Instead, I'd prefer that Russia break up into
smaller countries.
I don't claim that civil war is necessary.
(USSR broke up without it.)
But it would still be likely better than
preserving the larger traditionally
bellicose state.
Agree to disagree about
our different focuses.
You speak of what "could" be.
I think in terms of likelihood.
I see the dangers of a unified
Russia as worse than disassembly.
Possibly. Doesn't change my point.
I didn't know it was a MAGA argument. It seems you would know more about that than I would.
Are you certain that's what they believe? You seem to be painting them as monolithic societies where everyone thinks and believes the same thing.
That was more than 80 years ago. A lot has changed since then. Even our own allies don't really respect us anymore. Even here on RF, we have Canadians, Brits, Aussies, and others (along with more than a few Americans) practically writing America's obituary as of late.
Who me?
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I do find it strange an experienced Russian mercenary commander would be that reckless enough to enter a plane willy nilly givin the circumstances of recent events.The curious thing is that in the English Wikipedia page, Prigozhin is considered already dead.
It also starts with "he was a Russian oligarch, etc etc"
whereas in the Russian page, the verb is still in present tense. There is not written "byl rossijskij predprinimatel'", that is, the past tense.
Пригожин, Евгений Викторович — Википедия
ru.wikipedia.org
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Like they did with Gaddafi in Libya.
It was his own plane, so presumably he believed he had it protected sufficiently - but people can be bribed, and hence probably how a bomb was placed onboard being the likeliest explanation as to the crash. Any Putin investigation of such will probably show otherwise though.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
There are embittered cynics around the world who wish the same on your country.
People will hate whom they hate, & wish what they wish.
I see a dismantled Russia as better for the world.
Those who want the same for USA might be happier
seeing Russian conquer Ukraine & others. Many fondly
remember the heady days of a united USSR.
Different preferences, eh.
Russia will never be dismantled.
Because it's Europe that is changing.
There is a storm blowing furiously in Europe and is against the international banking system.
And I am afraid, you will have to kill us all this time, to prevent it.
I wager that the banking systemRussia will never be dismantled.
Because it's Europe that is changing.
There is a storm blowing furiously in Europe and is against the international banking system.
And I am afraid, you will have to kill us all this time, to prevent it.
will outlast all of its detractors.
I didn't know immortality was a thing.
Now you know.I didn't know immortality was a thing.
Yevgeny Prigozhin, former Wagner Group boss, confirmed dead by Russian investigators - UPI.com
Yevgeny Prigozhin, the former head of the private military company Wagner Group, was confirmed dead using genetic testing, Russian investigators said Sunday.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Yevgeny Prigozhin, former Wagner Group boss, confirmed dead by Russian investigators - UPI.com
Yevgeny Prigozhin, the former head of the private military company Wagner Group, was confirmed dead using genetic testing, Russian investigators said Sunday.www.upi.com
The Russians have no trouble at all getting rid of trouble makers and competitors for the leadership, compared to the USA.
Who go through interminable court cases and social media publicity.
In Russia, there have been times when the troublemakers came out on top, such as Lenin in 1917, Stalin in 1924, and Yeltsin in 1991.
U.S. political culture has generally been subtler than that, since public opinion here is more malleable (although the internet has become a game-changer in that regard).