Vows of Silence

[Badran]

I find this concept a bit interesting and at the same time quite disturbing. I can't help but see it as a serious waste, for the most part, despite recognizing some validity in what seems to me to be parts of the motivation behind the concept.

With this thread i'm aiming to discuss the reason(s) people have to undertaking such vows , it's possible differing types (if there is more than one type of such a vow), and finally what possible reason(s) would be recognized as strong enough for breaking such vows, if there are any.

What are your thoughts/knowledge regarding these three aspects mentioned above?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think I kind of get it as a type of asceticism: if you remove yourself from "worldly" things, this could make it easier to devote yourself to "spiritual" things.

I think that's the idea, anyhow. But I do agree that it seems like a waste.

 

[Desert Snake]

I think it's a good idea for people if they want to focus on meditation, unnecessary words/conversations can take quite a bit of concentration, the vows of silence simply reduce the "noise".

 

[Windwalker]

This a good article about silent retreats that monks are offering to the general public now. A very good read that may help understand this: Silent retreats’ rising popularity poses a challenge: How to handle the quiet - The Washington Post

From the article:

Silence isn’t the end; it’s the means, experts say. And its absence from our culture isn’t a small thing.

“It’s the crisis of our age, the loss of the interior of our lives,” said James Finley, who lived in silence for six years as a Trappist monk before becoming a clinical psychologist who leads silent retreats. For most people, “it’s like trying to make a U-turn at rush hour. We’re caught up in the momentum of the perceived urgency of the next thing.”​

 

[BSM1]

I find this concept a bit interesting and at the same time quite disturbing. I can't help but see it as a serious waste, for the most part, despite recognizing some validity in what seems to me to be parts of the motivation behind the concept.

With this thread i'm aiming to discuss the reason(s) people have to undertaking such vows , it's possible differing types (if there is more than one type of such a vow), and finally what possible reason(s) would be recognized as strong enough for breaking such vows, if there are any.

What are your thoughts/knowledge regarding these three aspects mentioned above?

Just a thought; If you don't say it, you can't get it wrong.

 

[Desert Snake]

Just a thought; If you don't say it, you can't get it wrong.

On the other hand, if you don't say it, you can't get it right, either.

 

[Sunstone]

From what I've read, Badran, the vows are at least sometimes based on the notion that talking distracts us from paying attention to what's going on inside of us. Perhaps also, the vows are sometimes based on the notion that going for long periods without talking helps quiet and calm what is going on inside of us.

 

[apophenia]

I don't have a comment about a lifetime vow of silence, but I have spent some time in silent meditation retreat (10 days) with a few dozen others, and also extended periods alone in the wilderness ( anywhere from days to months over a decade or so). It is actually a great relief to not talk, even though I was inclined to talk at length when I was younger. I spend a lot more time alone in silence now.

Once you feel accustomed to silence, finding yourself in the social situation of being compelled to talk feels stressful, and you notice that most talking is habitual ego maintenance.

Not talking eventually dramatically reduces the inner voice in the mind as well, and that is also a great relief. Talking and thinking appear to be a kind of obsessive/compulsive disorder once you are accustomed to silence. But unless there is an environment which supports silence, it cannot be maintained without being pathological.

 

[JayJayDee]

I find this concept a bit interesting and at the same time quite disturbing. I can't help but see it as a serious waste, for the most part, despite recognizing some validity in what seems to me to be parts of the motivation behind the concept.

With this thread i'm aiming to discuss the reason(s) people have to undertaking such vows , it's possible differing types (if there is more than one type of such a vow), and finally what possible reason(s) would be recognized as strong enough for breaking such vows, if there are any.

What are your thoughts/knowledge regarding these three aspects mentioned above?

From the Christian perspective, "silence" would be a strange concept indeed.
I don't know if it is possible to be silent in more than one way??

First of all Christians are commanded to speak and to offer the good news about the Christ and his kingdom to everyone....and secondly we are supposed to concentrate on the spiritual welfare of our neighbor, not just ourselves. If we are to do that, we have to treat them as we would like to be treated. Do we like it when people refuse to speak to us? How good can it be to be completely and selfishly immersed in just our own thoughts?

Did Jesus ever advocate such a thing? Was a monastic lifestyle with specific vows ever recommended for Christians? Were there even Christian monks or nuns in the first century?

If we had something that was life-saving to say to someone, like a warning of some sort, would we just remain silent? Would that not make us accountable?

These things would make silence something that is anti-Christian. IMO.

I don't know what other belief systems attribute to this vow but it certainly promotes nothing that Jesus taught.

 

[Shiranui117]

I find this concept a bit interesting and at the same time quite disturbing. I can't help but see it as a serious waste, for the most part, despite recognizing some validity in what seems to me to be parts of the motivation behind the concept.

With this thread i'm aiming to discuss the reason(s) people have to undertaking such vows , it's possible differing types (if there is more than one type of such a vow), and finally what possible reason(s) would be recognized as strong enough for breaking such vows, if there are any.

What are your thoughts/knowledge regarding these three aspects mentioned above?

Matthew 5:17-19
17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.


James 1:26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless.


James 3:1-12

3 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. 3 Indeed,[a] we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body. 4 Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. 5 Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things.
See how great a forest a little fire kindles! 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. 7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. 8 But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. 10 Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. 11 Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.

From the sayings of the Desert Fathers:


2. Antony said, "He who sits alone and is quiet has escaped three wars: hearing, speaking, seeing: but there is one thing against which he must continually fight: that is, his own heart.


3. Arsenius when he was still in the palace, prayed to God, saying, "Lord, show me the way of salvation." A voice came to him saying, "Arsenius, flee from men, and you will be saved." As he left for the monastic life, he prayed again, saying the same words; and he heard a voice saying to him, "Arsenius, flee, be silent, pray always, for these are the roots of sinlessness."

 

[Shiranui117]

From the Christian perspective, "silence" would be a strange concept indeed.
I don't know if it is possible to be silent in more than one way??

Silent with the tongue, but proclaiming the Gospel with our lives.

First of all Christians are commanded to speak and to offer the good news about the Christ and his kingdom to everyone....and secondly we are supposed to concentrate on the spiritual welfare of our neighbor, not just ourselves. If we are to do that, we have to treat them as we would like to be treated. Do we like it when people refuse to speak to us? How good can it be to be completely and selfishly immersed in just our own thoughts?

It is not selfishness that calls people to the monastic life. It is bridling our own passions that we may better help others; monks seek to take the log out of their own eye before helping those with toothpicks. Monks and nuns pray ceaselessly not just for their own salvation, but for the entire world.

Did Jesus ever advocate such a thing? Was a monastic lifestyle with specific vows ever recommended for Christians? Were there even Christian monks or nuns in the first century?

Jesus DID advocate selling all that we have, taking up our cross and following Him. That is at the heart of what it means to become a monastic, hermit or ascetic.

If we had something that was life-saving to say to someone, like a warning of some sort, would we just remain silent? Would that not make us accountable?

Monastics do not remain silent when one of their brothers in the world is on the precipice of becoming lost. They simply speak to restrict their speech in order to avoid vanity, pride, boastfulness and judgmentality. Monks and nuns often received visitors looking for spiritual assistance, and they were granted that assistance. They still do this.

These things would make silence something that is anti-Christian. IMO.

Then you do not understand what it means to undertake silence. It isn't refusing to speak another word in your life.

I don't know what other belief systems attribute to this vow but it certainly promotes nothing that Jesus taught.

It does, if you start to learn about what it is monks do. I can't speak for the Catholic tradition of monasticism, but I do have some knowledge and resources on Orthodox monasticism.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I'd think it has a lot to do with No Mind meditation - controlling your cravings to be unleashed.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Silence is certainly a major topic in the NT. There are a lot of reasons not to blab your every wise thought, and a vow of silence is probably a good way to learn what those reasons are. I don't understand much about monks, but the silence makes a lot of sense.

 

[Badran]

This a good article about silent retreats that monks are offering to the general public now. A very good read that may help understand this: Silent retreats’ rising popularity poses a challenge: How to handle the quiet - The Washington Post

From the article:

Silence isn’t the end; it’s the means, experts say. And its absence from our culture isn’t a small thing.

“It’s the crisis of our age, the loss of the interior of our lives,” said James Finley, who lived in silence for six years as a Trappist monk before becoming a clinical psychologist who leads silent retreats. For most people, “it’s like trying to make a U-turn at rush hour. We’re caught up in the momentum of the perceived urgency of the next thing.”​

The thoughts i conveyed in the first part of the OP were addressing the concept of a life time vow of silence, mainly because that's the understanding i had of the expression. I wasn't sure whether or not some of the things people included here would fall under this description.

An important distinction i should make is that i actually consider this kind of temporary condition as quite positive. Any form of temporary isolation, silence period for meditation, contemplation, just simply seeking more quietness or whatever way to describe it strikes me as something that is extremely beneficial. Whether it's done on a regular basis, whenever possible or even just once. It's something i strive to maintain within my life.

I actually found this a bit funny:

Michelle Harris-Love, a neuroscience researcher, wife and mother who lives near the monastery, was happy to pay $140 for two nights at the hermitage. But as the days drew closer, a stressful question surfaced. “I thought: ‘How am I going to fill my time?’ ”

This is a serious question.

The Catholic University architecture students who designed the RV-size space worked to envision the needs and rhythms of tenants who were unplugged. They were asked to turn off all their own devices and spend an hour alone and silent. Of the 12, only three were able to do it.

Article

The fact that people would struggle with spending such little time in a state of isolation and quietness.

 

[Badran]

I don't know if it is possible to be silent in more than one way??

The types i was referring to were meant to address whether or not there's more than one way or different conditions under which such vow can be taken. Based on the posts so far for example, there seems to be recognition of a temporary state of silence to fall under the description, which was one of things i was unsure about when making the OP.

 

[Badran]

I don't have a comment about a lifetime vow of silence, but I have spent some time in silent meditation retreat (10 days) with a few dozen others, and also extended periods alone in the wilderness ( anywhere from days to months over a decade or so). It is actually a great relief to not talk, even though I was inclined to talk at length when I was younger. I spend a lot more time alone in silence now.

I spent a considerably huge amount of my life both in silence and isolation. Yet i've never been able to have the opportunity to do so in a concentrated, long, 100% isolated status. Which is why i consider my experience to be lacking and am aiming to try to get the chance to do this for a considerable amount of time with no interruptions of any kind.

Once you feel accustomed to silence, finding yourself in the social situation of being compelled to talk feels stressful, and you notice that most talking is habitual ego maintenance.

Not talking eventually dramatically reduces the inner voice in the mind as well, and that is also a great relief. Talking and thinking appear to be a kind of obsessive/compulsive disorder once you are accustomed to silence.

My experience doesn't necessitate the same conclusions you've arrived to (despite partially agreeing), but since mine is lacking as i explained above, i'm going to assume that this is indeed the case. What i'm wondering about is, does this mean that you don't find there to be anything to learn from communicating with others? Or put differently and more generally, any value in doing so?

Or is it more like that you think we just do too much of that? IOW, that it's beneficial but in a considerably less amount of time and energy invested.

 

[atanu]

This is an excellent thread. Thanks Badran.

Most important points have already been said by Apophenia and Shiranui. I wish to share two points.

1.Verbal silence coupled with a noisy mind is useless. Ego will keep up the noise lest it gets anhillated. Perfect silence can only be achieved in absence of desire. Deep sleep is one example. The practice of silence is to attain the state of deep sleep while fully awake.

2.Some teachers point out that pure communication is silence alone. In India, there is Diety, Dakshinamurty, an aspect of Shiva, the immutable Brahman, that teaches in silence. And He has only 4 students, who further teach all.

 

[Badran]

I think I kind of get it as a type of asceticism: if you remove yourself from "worldly" things, this could make it easier to devote yourself to "spiritual" things.

I think that's the idea, anyhow. But I do agree that it seems like a waste.

From what I've read, Badran, the vows are at least sometimes based on the notion that talking distracts us from paying attention to what's going on inside of us. Perhaps also, the vows are sometimes based on the notion that going for long periods without talking helps quiet and calm what is going on inside of us.

Those are among the ways i understand the differing motivations behind the concept and/or adhering to it. I see a good amount of validity in such purposes to an extent. What i find negative about it is what i see as going too far, where i'd consider it more of a form of quitting than anything else (mostly). Which is in the case of the life time vow of silence, where one literally never utters another word or communicate with others in anyway.

Of course, this is based on how i see life and our condition or attributes in it. My reasoning is simply that while i agree that our regular life style, our constant communication and heavy involvement with others can (not is) often be distracting from learning more about ourselves, and can be inhibiting to the calmness that often comes with silence, it's also some other times a crucial element in doing just that. Which is mostly based on personal experience. I've learned a lot about myself from talking to and watching others, and found a lot of such calmness doing just that.

As such, i'm not sure i see any reason or benefit to go as far as eliminating one state entirely from one's life. Which is why i feel negatively towards both; a life spent entirely (or almost entirely) in isolation, and a life spent where such times of contemplation and quietness are absent or completely absent.

 

[Badran]

For everyone who has expressed that they see merit or benefit in the concept in general, as well as specifically the less 'strict' understandings or ideas of the concept (such as the temporary state), what are your thoughts particularly on the life long commitment to such state?

 

[Badran]

This is an excellent thread. Thanks Badran.

Most important points have already been said by Apophenia and Shiranui. I wish to share two points.

1.Verbal silence coupled with a noisy mind is useless. Ego will keep up the noise lest it gets anhillated. Perfect silence can only be achieved in absence of desire. Deep sleep is one example. The practice of silence is to attain the state of deep sleep while fully awake.

2.Some teachers point out that pure communication is silence alone. In India, there is Diety, Dakshinamurty, an aspect of Shiva, the immutable Brahman, that teaches in silence. And He has only 4 students, who further teach all.

Thanks atanu.

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind, as i'm struggling to understand certain parts.

Why should one seek this state of perfect silence as you describe it, and under what conditions? As in, is it a permanent state (in a sense) and something that one would aim their life towards in general, or more of a regular experience that one should seek?

Does what you said entail that our 'normal' kind of communication isn't with any benefit?