Voltaire was so right on his criticism of Mafia religious cultures

[Din28]

Essentially this was at best more towards Christianity. But this can be to anything of mafia religious culture of groups in origin.

"Christians always feel oppressed when they can't oppress others".

This is so spot on true. It is so ironic but brilliant. What do you think?

 

[stvdv]

"Christians always feel oppressed when they can't oppress others".
This is so spot on true. It is so ironic but brilliant. What do you think?

I could not have phrased this any better.

So many times I told Christians "If you belittle/criticize other's faith I won't talk to you anymore".
The default reply they give when I tell them this is "Now you criticize my faith"

First few times I could not answer. Now I understand why and how this all works in the mind of these specific Christians
"My way is the highway" obviously indicates arrogance. So they won't see their own faults AND twist truth to suit them

 

[Polymath257]

It seems to me that all religions have some tendencies in this direction. Currently, Islam seems to be taking this position in way too many places in the world. When Voltaire was writing, the Christians were the less tolerant ones.

 

[YmirGF]

It seems to me that all religions have some tendencies in this direction. Currently, Islam seems to be taking this position in way too many places in the world. When Voltaire was writing, the Christians were the less tolerant ones.

Spot on! Christianity has become the favorite whipping boy simply because it does not fight back. When was the last time you were worried about offending a Christian? When was the last time you worried about drawing Jesus Christ?

 

[Din28]

Spot on! Christianity has become the favorite whipping boy simply because it does not fight back. When was the last time you were worried about offending a Christian? When was the last time you worried about drawing Jesus Christ?

There is actually most likely a reason for it. Now there is nowhere in any authentic hadiths atleast the 6 strong sunnah hadith or any on "sunnah.com" that i read from that specifically says you can't depict prophets. But what i do know is "drawing anything animate is a sin, this is anything alive, animals etc.. not sure if nature is considered alive but anything inanimate is sorta seen as ok if you absolutely have to depict something" (the question is if this means idol worship or if its just pure ban on it due to reasons). Historically muhammad has been depicted by persians and etc.

There is also cases where mockery which from a hadith i remember, a woman slandered the prophet or not sure if mocked, but either case the blind guy put a knife in her belly and killed her (though he asked her to stop before he did it) she was also pregnant. And he asked muhammad if there was blood mooney or punishment for it. Which was none. Blood money is another topic but it in short means revenge if you have done anything guilty of criminal murder stuff etc.

Either case this alone seems to justify, if you make depiction of the islamic prophet... all bets are off more or less. Like i am not defending it or anything. But this may be why they go very much mayhem in how they see it atleast whenever someone does it

Though the irony is there is also a case where you are not to act like extremist but moderate or perfect in religion.

Though even if moderate there are extreme ideas such as death for apostasy etc (so its at best ironic, but i think it refers to behavior and manners since "dont get angry" is one of examples to follow), so even if they were to try to use reason there are some other controversies surrounding it. Like there are cases where a guy asks to take back the conversion, muhammad denies it and the guy leaves... see the problem is it doesnt specify if he left the islamic religion. And it is very plain saying cases of death if one is a muslim, one of them is if you leave the religion. You can argue this is geopolitical, like turkey doesnt have this as practice i think, Indonesia i dont think so but not sure. But yeah in sunni muslim majority country this would be pretty much clear.

One islamic apologetic i actually kind of like listening too. Though i dont agree with the overall religious stuff since i consider it along traditional christianity to be mafia religious in nature, atleast sunni islam.

But i think Shabir Ally on youtube is a guy i think is very much reasonable and i like listening to him at times. Like mostly muslims are just not interesting to listening to. In the same way Westboro Baptist church is not that interesting to listen to either. Well how i see it. But just how i see it.

 

[Valjean]

I wouldn't worry. Is this not the best of all possible worlds?

 

[stvdv]

Spot on! Christianity has become the favorite whipping boy simply because it does not fight back. When was the last time you were worried about offending a Christian? When was the last time you worried about drawing Jesus Christ?

In my country we had mostly christians, used to be 99%, 60% in 1970, 40% in 2018. Most Christians evangelize, thereby irritating others by belittling. True they do not kill on blasphemy like Islamists (which is very small group), but still they irritate (which is a big group), so they were the cause others stood finally up to their behavior. Becoming "whipping boy" I call self created karma".

I believe Truth will win in the end, that is why I believe Christianity will die out or should change their behavior. Atheism grew from 0% to 40% in a very short time, and Christianity went from 99% to 40% in a very short time. Tells a lot. Proves that evangelizing does not work It does create more atheism, not more Christians.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Spot on! Christianity has become the favorite whipping boy simply because it does not fight back. When was the last time you were worried about offending a Christian? When was the last time you worried about drawing Jesus Christ?

Exactly. This is why many on the left exclusively criticize Christianity, yet defend Islam even though Islam is currently a much more oppressive religion. They are afraid of offending Muslims, because they know Muslims are more prone to violent over-reactions than Christians.

 

[Polymath257]

Exactly. This is why many on the left exclusively criticize Christianity, yet defend Islam even though Islam is currently a much more oppressive religion. They are afraid of offending Muslims, because they know Muslims are more prone to violent over-reactions than Christians.

I think it is more complicated than simply fear of over-reactions. There *is* a tendency to demonize Islam in the west, even to the point of demonizing those who are perfectly good people.

But I agree, we also have to be willing to criticize Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and all other religions. For that matter, all other beliefs. NO ideas should be exempt from challenge. No ideas should be coddled when they oppress, threaten, or kill in their name. The extremists in ALL religion can be dangerous. And that includes 'secular religions' like communism.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I think it is more complicated than simply fear of over-reactions. There *is* a tendency to demonize Islam in the west, even to the point of demonizing those who are perfectly good people.

Of course there are many Muslims who are perfectly good people. However, it's not because they are Muslims that they are good people. I would argue that it is in spite of being indoctrinated into Islam. I think the point that needs to be made is that we should attack ideas but not people. I think we can work to eliminate the intolerant ideas associate with the religion of Islam (and other religions) by pointing them out. In any case, given the number of western civilians who have been the victims of Qur'an inspired atrocities committed in the name of Islam, I think that people in the west have every right to demonize the ideaologies of Islam, at the very least Fundamentalist Islam.

 

[Cacotopia]

They seem to enjoy holding that "Hell Gun" to your head and hold you hostage with the fear of damnation in order to compel compliance.

Any belief that has to threaten you into belief should never be followed at all.

Respect through fear is far more fragile than respect through admiration and example. You can break a person through fear and threats but then that belief is hollow. Compelled into belief against their will and that that decision was made out of self preservation.

You are messing with the honesty of the belief when you threaten people with damnation.

 

[Cacotopia]

 

[Polymath257]

Of course there are many Muslims who are perfectly good people. However, it's not because they are Muslims that they are good people. I would argue that it is in spite of being indoctrinated into Islam. I think the point that needs to be made is that we should attack ideas but not people. I think we can work to eliminate the intolerant ideas associate with the religion of Islam (and other religions) by pointing them out. In any case, given the number of western civilians who have been the victims of Qur'an inspired atrocities committed in the name of Islam, I think that people in the west have every right to demonize the ideaologies of Islam, at the very least Fundamentalist Islam.

I think you can argue the same about other religions, though. For example, I think many Christians are good in spite of their doctrines as opposed to because of them. Also, the changes since the 17th century in European culture affected how Christianity thinks of others. But I would also condemn many of the ideologies of the Christian (or Jewish) fundamentalists.

But I agree. We should allow full criticism of ideas. We should point out human rights abuses and intolerance whatever their origin. We should roundly criticize censorship and other forms of oppression. Currently,many such come from the Islamic world (but don't ignore Russia, China, and other countries bent on suppressing freedoms).

 

[Sunstone]

"Christians always feel oppressed when they can't oppress others".

Two observations. First, the "quote" does not seem to me to be from Voltaire. I suspect it's merely been attributed to him.

Second, the quote strikes me as remarkably spot on when it comes to Evangelical and fundamentalist Christians but as quite missing the mark when it comes to more moderate and mainstream Christians.

 

[Polymath257]

Two observations. First, the "quote" does not seem to me to be from Voltaire. I suspect it's merely been attributed to him.

Second, the quote strikes me as remarkably spot on when it comes to Evangelical and fundamentalist Christians but as quite missing the mark when it comes to more moderate and mainstream Christians.

During Voltaire's time, there were few of what we would call 'moderate Christians'.

 

[Sunstone]

During Voltaire's time, there were few of what we would call 'moderate Christians'.

True, but is that relevant to whether the quote is true or accurate today?

Second, Google can't find the quote attributed to Voltaire. I suspect Voltaire never said it.

 

[Polymath257]

True, but is that relevant to whether the quote is true or accurate today?

Second, Google can't find the quote attributed to Voltaire. I suspect Voltaire never said it.

You are probably correct i that conclusion.

 

[stvdv]

I think it is more complicated than simply fear of over-reactions. There *is* a tendency to demonize Islam in the west, even to the point of demonizing those who are perfectly good people.

But I agree, we also have to be willing to criticize Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and all other religions. For that matter, all other beliefs. NO ideas should be exempt from challenge. No ideas should be coddled when they oppress, threaten, or kill in their name. The extremists in ALL religion can be dangerous. And that includes 'secular religions' like communism.

Here in Holland Wilders planned a cartoon contest of Muhammad. Okay not the smartest, because we know Muslims will be offended. BUT do you think for 1 second that a Muslim will take into account how non-Muslims believe? Imagine what happens if we try to impose the West in the Middle East like some Muslims try to impose Islam in the West. I know what might happen if we try to do that. It woudl be blasphemy and that means death penalty probably.

I have been going to a Mosque and regular meet with a Muslim; try to understand them. One thing in Islam is very clear "Do never oblige Christians; it is bad to even consider Christianity to be good or to be nice to them, so that they may like you in return" this Muslim told me. Shocked me a bit.

A few weeks back 2 Americans were "knifed" by a Pakistani on Amsterdam Central. Wilders cancelled. Muslims celebrated. I did not hear regrets. some think "maybe 1 extremist". Keep dreaming I say. The "knifing" of Americans was not even questioned.

Islam is quite primitive compared to Western culture, more barbaric. More eye for eye, very much unlike the West. Though we can also learn from Islam. I believe it's best to make it very clear to Islam that the West don't want Islam imposed here. I saw a interview with Putin. After having Muslim problems in Russia, Putin made it very clear to the Muslim community "You are welcome to be in Russia, BUT never try to impose Islam on Russia, I will personally escort you OUT to any Muslim country of your choice". The West could learn something from this powerful interview Putin gave.

We used to be barbaric in Europe. I rather don't go back in time. That is all. Muslims have to accept our culture. If they won't, then they should leave.
When I go to the Middle East, I consider myself a guest in their country/culture and I will follow their rules. They should give us the same respect.

 

[stvdv]

Two observations. First, the "quote" does not seem to me to be from Voltaire. I suspect it's merely been attributed to him.

Second, the quote strikes me as remarkably spot on when it comes to Evangelical and fundamentalist Christians but as quite missing the mark when it comes to more moderate and mainstream Christians.

You are quite awake checking this quote. I just believed the OP on his word. After seeing your reply I tried to google, but for sure could not find
So maybe @Din28 can enlighten us where the quote comes from

I do think you have a point that most christians want the best for others humans. But my experience is that most christians do still believe "my way is the highway" causing so many problems, but probably they are unware of this and just act because they were brainwashed that way.

Simple RF poll "do you believe Jesus is the only way" would make this clear. I did meet moderate Christians and on the surface they claimed that some other religions are also good. They meant other Christian denominations, not even considering other religions. Deep down they were fundamentalists also.

Animal Farm, G.Orwell got it very right with the quote "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others". That sums it up all.

 

[Din28]

You are quite awake checking this quote. I just believed the OP on his word. After seeing your reply I tried to google, but for sure could not find
So maybe @Din28 can enlighten us where the quote comes from

I do think you have a point that most christians want the best for others humans. But my experience is that most christians do still believe "my way is the highway" causing so many problems, but probably they are unware of this and just act because they were brainwashed that way.

Simple RF poll "do you believe Jesus is the only way" would make this clear. I did meet moderate Christians and on the surface they claimed that some other religions are also good. They meant other Christian denominations, not even considering other religions. Deep down they were fundamentalists also.

Animal Farm, G.Orwell got it very right with the quote "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others". That sums it up all.

Well i read it somewhere. But yeah i cant find it on internet either. But i dont remember where i read it from but it was said to be from Voltaire