Violent verses from Allah

[Chosenone]

I've read the Quran and there are some verses in it that make me question the nature of Allah. For example :

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

For what reason would Allah want to create a fight? Even if this verse is directed to the times of war between Islam and others, why does Allah feel like this conflict should be resolved by violent means? We all know violence leads to more violence and conflict, and thinking about it, this conflict between religions has never stopped. Fighting isn't the cure of resolving issues, loving and respecting each other no matter what faith, tradition and religion is the most peaceful and rightous way of living so why did Allah tell prophet Muhammad and his army to fight them and to slaughter them?

It doesn't really make sense from the perspective of a higher up telling his creation to fight. Allah is supposed to be the grown up one who encourages peace and love and understanding amongst others. So why did Allah encourage the complete opposite.

There are also verses where Allah openly says he hates the disbelievers and will punish them severely and destroy them. For example :

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

Why would Allah want to destroy them for thinking wrongly about him? Its not like Allah has ever revealed himself to people. What's with his hatred and anger in these verses? If people have a misconception of you, its the wise thing to correct them in a polite way, it's not to belittle them and threaten to destroy them. The quran wasn't even out then, so barely anyone would even know so whys Allah so angry about people unknowingly thinking Jesus was the son of God? Why call them a horrible word such as "deluded"? Doesn't sound like the language a higher being would have?

If Allah is so powerful, why does he feel threatened and hateful towards the disbelievers? He's supposed to be strong, why would he let the views of people affect him? And the strange thing here is, Allah is his own suffering in this case. Its like Allah created humans so he could almost self harm himself from the views that his created people have? He did all of this to himself and he should take responsibility for creating this mess. I admit we have choice and free will and our actions are our own choices, but the truth of the matter is he gave us life and the ability to have choices in the first place so if he's going to be angry at anyone, should he first take a look in the mirror at himself before pointing his finger in anger against humans who are tiny in comparison to him?

I hope people can give me some light upon the topics I have discussed and some clarity and understanding. I am open to learning and from my study so far, this is how I see it. I'd like to learn more, and be challenged or challenge your opinions also. Thank you for reading.

 

[Chosenone]

I've read the Quran and there are some verses in it that make me question the nature of Allah's character. For example :

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

For what reason would Allah want to create a fight? Even if this verse is directed to the times of war between Islam and others, why does Allah feel like this conflict should be resolved by violent means? We all know violence leads to more violence and conflict, and thinking about it, this conflict between religions has never stopped. Fighting isn't the cure of resolving issues, loving and respecting each other no matter what faith, tradition and religion is the most peaceful and rightous way of living so why did Allah tell prophet Muhammad and his army to fight them and to slaughter them?

It doesn't really make sense from the perspective of a higher up telling his creation to fight. Allah is supposed to be the grown up one who encourages peace and love and understanding amongst others. So why did Allah encourage the complete opposite.

There are also verses where Allah openly says he hates the disbelievers and will punish them severely and destroy them. For example :

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

Why would Allah want to destroy them for thinking wrongly about him? Its not like Allah has ever revealed himself to people. What's with his hatred and anger in these verses? If people have a misconception of you, its the wise thing to correct them in a polite way, it's not to belittle them and threaten to destroy them. The quran wasn't even out then, so barely anyone would even know so whys Allah so angry about people unknowingly thinking Jesus was the son of God? Why call them a horrible word such as "deluded"? Doesn't sound like the language a higher being would have?

If Allah is so powerful, why does he feel threatened and hateful towards the disbelievers? He's supposed to be strong, why would he let the views of people affect him? And the strange thing here is, Allah is his own suffering in this case. Its like Allah created humans so he could almost self harm himself from the views that his created people have? He did all of this to himself and he should take responsibility for creating this mess. I admit we have choice and free will and our actions are our own choices, but the truth of the matter is he gave us life and the ability to have choices in the first place so if he's going to be angry at anyone, should he first take a look in the mirror at himself before pointing his finger in anger against humans who are tiny in comparison to him?

I hope people can give me some light upon the topics I have discussed and some clarity and understanding. I am open to learning and from my study so far, this is how I see it. I'd like to learn more, and be challenged or challenge your opinions also. Thank you for reading.

 

[icehorse]

These are good questions, and you're not the only one who's interested in answers.

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

For what reason would Allah want to create a fight?

Read the rest of the chapter, it's quite explicit about the context:

Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty). (Surah 9:4)


And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.
How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Apostle; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
How (can it be)! while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, nor those of covenant; they please you with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors. (Surah 9:6-8)


What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Apostle, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers. (Surah 9:13)

And remove the rage of their hearts (Surah 9:15)


Nonetheless, the majority of this Surah was revealed by God during a period where peace treaties had been broken. On this event:

The Expedition of Tabuk


The battle of Mootah in which the Muslims were defeated, was fought in September 629. Their defeat was interpreted in many circles as a sign of decline in the power of the new Islamic State. The Arab freebooters must have found it very tempting to attack Medina after this fancied decline. But in the summer of 630, rumors were circulating in Medina that it were not the North Arabian tribes but the Roman troops which were massing at the Syrian frontier for an invasion of Hijaz.

Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, decided to take preventive action for the defense of Medina, and ordered his followers to prepare themselves for a long campaign in the north.

It was the month of September, and the weather in Hijaz that year was exceedingly hot. Furthermore, a protracted draught threatened the province with conditions of semi-famine. The response of the Muslims, therefore, to the call-up was very lukewarm. They did not wish to leave their homes at a time like this.

Sir John Glubb

In September or October 630 the Messenger of God gave orders to prepare for an expedition to the Byzantine frontier. The weather in the Hijaz was still oppressively hot, water and grazing were scarce, and the movements of a large force would be extremely difficult. Perhaps the memories of the disaster at Mootah deprived many men of the wish to face the Byzantines again. (The Life and Times of Mohammed)

The hypocrites in Medina seized this opportunity to plant disaffection in the minds of the neophytes in Islam. They not only did not take part in the campaign but also tried to dissuadeothers from doing so.

In an attempt to undermine the will and purpose of the Muslims, they began to spread alarmist stories that the antagonists this time were not the poor, ill-equipped, backward and ignorant tribal levies which fought without order and without discipline but the Romans who were the most civilized and the most powerful nation in the world, and who, in effect, would exterminate them (the Muslims).

Nevertheless, many Muslims responded to the appeal of the Prophet, and took up arms to defend the faith. When a head-count was taken, there were found to be 30,000 volunteers. It was the largest force ever assembled in Arabia until then.

The Prophet appointed Ali ibn Abi Talib his viceroy in Medina during his own absence. He selected Ali to be his viceroy for the following reasons:

1. He wanted to show to the rest of the world that he considered Ali to be more qualified than anyone else to be the ruler of all Muslims, and to be the head of the Islamic State. He, therefore, appointed him as his representative in his capital.

2. All fighting men were going with the expedition, leavingMedina without any troops. In the event of an attack upon the city by the nomadic predators, Ali could be counted upon to handle the situation by dint of his courage and ability.

3. Many hypocrites had stayed behind in Medina, and many others had deserted the army to return to the city. They were a potential threat to the security of the capital of Islam. The Prophet, therefore, selected a man to rule in his place who was capable of defending Medina against any pagan advance, either by external aggression or through internal subversion.

For the hypocrites there was nothing more disagreeable than to see Ali in authority over them. When the army left Medina, they began to whisper that the Apostle had left Ali in Medina because he wanted to get rid of him.

Ali was mortified to hear that his master had found him a “burden.” He, therefore, immediately went after the army and overtook it at Jorf. The Apostle was surprised to see him but when he (Ali) explained why he came, he (the Apostle) said:

“These people are liars. I left you in Medina to represent me in my absence. Are you not content to be to me what Aaron was to Moses except that there will not be any prophet after me.”

Washington Irving

Many have inferred from the foregoing that Mohammed intended Ali for his caliph or successor; that being the significance of the Arabic word used to denote the relation of Aaron to Moses. (The Life of Mohammed)

Ali was satisfied by the assurance that the Prophet gave him, and returned to Medina to take charge of his duties as viceroy.

When the Prophet gave audience to Ali in his camp at Jorf, some of his companions were with him. One of them was Saad bin Abi Waqqas, the future victor of the battle of Qadsiyya against the Persians. He reported to the other Muslims that it was in his presence that Muhammad Mustafa, the Messenger of God, told Ali that he (Ali) was to him (Muhammad) what Aaron was to Moses, except that he (Ali) was not a prophet.

After a laborious march the army arrived at the Syrian frontier, and halted at a hamlet called Tabuk but the Prophet could find no sign of the Roman army or of any other army or enemy. The frontier was peaceful and quiet. The reports he had heard in Medina about an imminent invasion by the Romans, were false.

Peace and tranquillity on the Syrian frontier is another proof that the Romans considered the battle of Mootah as nothing more than a foray by a band of desert Arabs. If Mootah had been such a titanic battle as some Muslim historians claim it was, the Romans would have maintained their garrisons on the border. But they didn't maintain even pickets much less garrisons!

The Messenger of God then pondered the next step to be taken in Tabuk.

Washington Irving

Calling a council of war, he (Mohammed) propounded thequestion whether or not to continue forward (from Tabuk). To this Omar replied drily: “If thou has the command of God to proceed further, do so.” “If I had the command of God to proceed further,” observed Mohammed, “I should not have asked thy counsel.” (The Life of Mohammed)

Eventually, the Prophet decided not to advance into Syria but to return to Medina.

The army spent ten days in Tabuk. Though it had not been engaged in any action, its presence at the frontier had some salutary effects. Many northern tribes of Bedouins accepted Islam. Dauma-tul-Jandal, a strategic post between Medina and Syria, was acquired as new territory.

Just before the army left Tabuk, the monks of the monastery of St. Catherine in the valley of Sinai, came to see the Prophet. He gave them audience, and granted them a charter which is comparable to the Charter of Medina which he had granted to the Jews. Its main terms were:

1. The Muslims would protect the churches and monasteries of the Christians. They would not demolish any church property either to build mosques or to build houses for the Muslims.

2. All ecclesiastical property (of the Christians) would be exempt from every tax.

3. No ecclesiastical authority would ever be forced by the Muslims to abandon his post.

4. No Christian would ever be forced by the Muslims to become a convert to Islam.

5. If a Christian woman marries a Muslim, she would have full freedom to follow her own religion.

The army recuperated from the toil and fatigue of the long journey, and the Prophet gave it the signal to return home. He arrived in Medina after an absence of one month.

Moving on:

Even if this verse is directed to the times of war between Islam and others, why does Allah feel like this conflict should be resolved by violent means?

Same thing can be said towards any military action of any sort. I don't think such logic is very well thought out. If someone murdered a family member for instance, I don't think your call of action would be to send them some roses and chocolate. You would demand justice of some sort.
Depending on the situation, it might result in a battle, in other situations it might result in imprisoning someone. Different situations different measures.

We all know violence leads to more violence and conflict, and thinking about it, this conflict between religions has never stopped.

In theory we all share similar ideals but reality doesn't match those ideals.

Why would Allah want to destroy them for thinking wrongly about him?

You're taking that statement too literally. Jews and Christians are "people of the book" according to the Qur'an, in Islam they are both regarded a place of special consideration both being religions related to prophets shared with Islam. Muslims are allowed to marry Christians and Jews, just as Christians are allowed to marry Jews.
Historically, we have generally coexisted, although Christians have had a strong tendency towards antagonistic rebellion but that's another can of worms.

If Allah is so powerful, why does he feel threatened and hateful towards the disbelievers?

If you are ungrateful, then surely Allah is Self-sufficient above all need of you; and He does not like ungratefulness in His servants; and if you are grateful, He likes it in you; and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return, then will He inform you of what you did; surely He is Cognizant of what is in the breasts. (Surah 39:7)


Allah (which etymologically means "The God") is Ultimate Reality in Islam, the Unity that transcends and pervades all things. Indivisible and immutable.
In the words of Ali Ibn Abi Talib:

......
He who describes Him limits Him. He who limits Him numbers Him. He who numbers Him rejects His eternity. He who said "how" sought a description for Him. He who said "where" bounded him. He is the Knower even though there be nothing to be known. He is the Sustainer even though there be nothing to be sustained. He is the Powerful even though there be nothing to be overpowered.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The basic problem is your a-priori assumption of existence of the entity 'Allah' or 'God'.

 

[osgart]

A God that is perceived to be real by millions is worth examining such God's motives even being a fable.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If one examines, then everything evaporates. Religions do not ask you to question, but have faith.

 

[sun rise]

@ClimbingTheLadder 's exposition was quite thorough. I'd only add that the Bible has some violent passages as well and the Mahabharata is about a war.

 

[Cooky]

Read the rest of the chapter, it's quite explicit about the context:

Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty). (Surah 9:4)


And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.
How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Apostle; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
How (can it be)! while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, nor those of covenant; they please you with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors. (Surah 9:6-8)


What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Apostle, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers. (Surah 9:13)

And remove the rage of their hearts (Surah 9:15)


Nonetheless, the majority of this Surah was revealed by God during a period where peace treaties had been broken. On this event:

Does that make it any better?

 

[Cooky]

@ClimbingTheLadder 's exposition was quite thorough. I'd only add that the Bible has some violent passages as well and the Mahabharata is about a war.

The bible? You wanna talk about the bible..?

...But the OP didn't ask about comparisons to the bible. He asked about the Koran and Allah.

 

[sun rise]

If one examines, then everything evaporates. Religions do not ask you to question, but have faith.

Not all:

"Beware of any system which discourages questioning. Anyone who stifles questions is afraid that it could uncover the falseness of the beliefs."
Rabbi Noach Weinberg

 

[oldbadger]

I hope people can give me some light upon the topics I have discussed and some clarity and understanding. I am open to learning and from my study so far, this is how I see it. I'd like to learn more, and be challenged or challenge your opinions also. Thank you for reading.

Violent verses and reports seem to come from the Abrahamic religions. You forgot about the Christian promises of violence, which of course you do need to include as well.

I'm always surprised by the numbers of Christians who support the death penalty for all kinds of actions and crimes.

But then....... there are large followings from all Abrahamic religions that promote peace, so we cannot tar millions of followers from any one religion with the same brush.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Not all:
Rabbi Noach Weinberg

If Rabbi Weinberg could give me any proof of YHWH and his meeting with Moziz.

 

[Ebionite]

For what reason would Allah want to create a fight?

To make the truth known.

Even if this verse is directed to the times of war between Islam and others, why does Allah feel like this conflict should be resolved by violent means?

I'd guess that explanation or argument would be ineffective.

 

[danieldemol]

To make the truth known.

Fighting doesn’t make truth known.

 

[wizanda]

You make some interesting points.

For what reason would Allah want to create a fight? Even if this verse is directed to the times of war between Islam and others, why does Allah feel like this conflict should be resolved by violent means?

If Allah is the Source of reality, and the Word is literally Code of the Matrix around us, then why not recode us, rather than make savage Arabs try to educate others...

Why use violence to solve violence, and then call it Submit to Peace (Islam)...

Because the whole thing is a test, to see who faces the right way; none of this is real, the whole religious texts are an IQ morality test in the Matrix to assess us.

The Quran clearly relates that in the beginning Allah created reality like Paradise; yet there are those that cause mischief, and violence, so then Allah allows the Djinn to test mankind.

After Allah will recreate reality, and have a new world without violence, and without mischief makers; these test are a way to establish who they are, by what they'd follow.

What people don't get is we've been put down near Hell according to most of the world's religious texts, and people refuse to acknowledge that basic, which means their whole perspectives are off.

Why would Allah want to destroy them for thinking wrongly about him?

Because creating idolatry is why we're in a realm of delusions and desires, as we're attached to ego in some way; most of the Masters have taught to be selfless to reach ascension, and people have then become transfixed on the Masters, as a form of cult worship down here...

Instead of recognize the Source of reality is beyond form, and is therefore the only thing we should worship; yet we get confused by idols that we can see.

Again the Source could just delete us as being a waste of space; yet it is testing us all, to see if we qualify for the age to come.

If Allah is so powerful, why does he feel threatened and hateful towards the disbelievers?

The Source of reality isn't threatened by the false beliefs, it is warning they are delusional, and don't study the scriptures properly; as they're making partners with the Source of reality, and there is only one Source.

The problem is people have a very naive understanding of ancient theology, and then fit the Quran into our modern limited view...

The Quran recites that there is One Source, and then the Divine Council have interacted with mankind; yet people don't study global contexts, and so think what is complex is simple, and make it look stupid.

Take into account Allah is just going to remove all the unbelievers at Judgement Day, and restore Paradise for those who studied all the world's religious texts.

It gets more self explanatory the more texts we study, as Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad, Yeshua all say the same about not making idols of men; yet only worshipping the Source.

In my opinion.

 

[exchemist]

Does that make it any better?

Yes.

Context is all, in interpreting scripture sensibly. Taking verses out of context - "quote-mining" - is a dangerous practice that risks misrepresenting the intentions of the writer. We see it all the time with fundamentalists of all sorts, do we not?

 

[Cooky]

Yes.

Context is all, in interpreting scripture sensibly. Taking verses out of context - "quote-mining" - is a dangerous practice that risks misrepresenting the intentions of the writer. We see it all the time with fundamentalists of all sorts, do we not?

It's not just taking scripture out of context that causes bad religion, it's relying on them, as the arbitrator of Truth.

...I discourage all fundamentalism, in all it's forms, including the Chriatian Sola Scriptura.

...And with Islam, we see the Koran as the standard for Sharia Law -that's Koranic arbitration magnified -even worst than Sola Scriptura fundamentaliam.

I can't treat the two differently when they're both Abrahamic.

 

[exchemist]

I've read the Quran and there are some verses in it that make me question the nature of Allah's character. For example :

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

For what reason would Allah want to create a fight? Even if this verse is directed to the times of war between Islam and others, why does Allah feel like this conflict should be resolved by violent means? We all know violence leads to more violence and conflict, and thinking about it, this conflict between religions has never stopped. Fighting isn't the cure of resolving issues, loving and respecting each other no matter what faith, tradition and religion is the most peaceful and rightous way of living so why did Allah tell prophet Muhammad and his army to fight them and to slaughter them?

It doesn't really make sense from the perspective of a higher up telling his creation to fight. Allah is supposed to be the grown up one who encourages peace and love and understanding amongst others. So why did Allah encourage the complete opposite.

There are also verses where Allah openly says he hates the disbelievers and will punish them severely and destroy them. For example :

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

Why would Allah want to destroy them for thinking wrongly about him? Its not like Allah has ever revealed himself to people. What's with his hatred and anger in these verses? If people have a misconception of you, its the wise thing to correct them in a polite way, it's not to belittle them and threaten to destroy them. The quran wasn't even out then, so barely anyone would even know so whys Allah so angry about people unknowingly thinking Jesus was the son of God? Why call them a horrible word such as "deluded"? Doesn't sound like the language a higher being would have?

If Allah is so powerful, why does he feel threatened and hateful towards the disbelievers? He's supposed to be strong, why would he let the views of people affect him? And the strange thing here is, Allah is his own suffering in this case. Its like Allah created humans so he could almost self harm himself from the views that his created people have? He did all of this to himself and he should take responsibility for creating this mess. I admit we have choice and free will and our actions are our own choices, but the truth of the matter is he gave us life and the ability to have choices in the first place so if he's going to be angry at anyone, should he first take a look in the mirror at himself before pointing his finger in anger against humans who are tiny in comparison to him?

I hope people can give me some light upon the topics I have discussed and some clarity and understanding. I am open to learning and from my study so far, this is how I see it. I'd like to learn more, and be challenged or challenge your opinions also. Thank you for reading.

Why have you posted the identical anti-muslim propaganda speech under two different titles on this forum?

I am going to report you as a possible robot.

 

[exchemist]

It's not just taking scripture out of context that causes bad religion, it's relying on them, as the arbitrator of Truth.

...I discourage all fundamentalism, in all it's forms, including the Chriatian Sola Scriptura.

...And with Islam, we see the Koran as the standard for Sharia Law -that's Koranic arbitration magnified -even worst than Sola Scriptura fundamentaliam.

I'm against hard-line fundamentalism in all it's forms.

Good, so am I.

In that case, you should be able to extend the same line of thinking to the posting of extracts, out of context, from the scripture of other religions.