Violence in the Bible

[Jayhawker Soule]

Good question.........not speaking for Jews of the period, but putting myself in that situation, I would have to say no....

I don't believe that my conscience would allow me to kill an innocent man/woman... I would question the validity of the text that commanded me to do so.... I would not believe that it was truly God's words.

Very well. But, God's word or not, we know from the DSS that it was the written law - the Torah - as described in the texts of the day. Certainly there is no known instance of Jesus taking Leviticus or Deuteronomy to task, and it seems to me inconceivable that he would not have done so if the Torah was so severely corrupted.

So, Scott1, do we not have another quandry? If one is to believe the Bible, Jesus was an expert in the law - including this law. Rather than repudiating this law, the NAB has him declaring in 5 Matthew:

17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
18 Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.
19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.​

Projecting yourself back to circa 30 CE, do we not have Jesus demading that you do precisely what your conscious would not alow?

 

[JerryL]

I don't believe that my conscience would allow me to kill an innocent man/woman... I would question the validity of the text that commanded me to do so.... I would not believe that it was truly God's words.

So you would fail the test of Abraham.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Very well. But, God's word or not, we know from the DSS that it was the written law - the Torah - as described in the texts of the day. Certainly there is no known instance of Jesus taking Leviticus or Deuteronomy to task, and it seems to me inconceivable that he would not have done so if the Torah was so severely corrupted.



So, Scott1, do we not have another quandry? If one is to believe the Bible, Jesus was an expert in the law - including this law. Rather than repudiating this law, the NAB has him declaring in 5 Matthew:

17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.

18 Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.
19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
​

Projecting yourself back to circa 30 CE, do we not have Jesus demading that you do precisely what your conscious would not alow?

Deut,

If I ever find an answer to this I will get back to you. I have not found an adequate answer for this - I have seen this verse interpreted so many different ways. So far I have found:

Christ fulfills everyone's punishment. Most of us deserve death for something in the law, and Christ died for all. How do we keep the law, then. Well, by belief in Christ because He is the fulfillment, and in following Christ, we are keeping the law because its requirements have been met in Him. Those deserving death are forgiven by his sacrifice, and those needing to kill others don't need to kill anyone because Christ has died for all.

 

[Scott1]

Projecting yourself back to circa 30 CE, do we not have Jesus demading that you do precisely what your conscious would not alow?

Ummm.... do you believe the command to murder in Deut 13 part of the "commandments" Jesus speaks of in Matthew?

I do not......and so:

Projecting yourself back to circa 30 CE, do we not have Jesus demading that you do precisely what your conscious would not alow?

... would certainly not apply.... and in fact is evidence (to me at least) that confirms that in fidelity to Scripture and in conformity with Jesus' example, the tradition of the Church has always acknowledged the primordial importance and significance of the Decalogue.

So you would fail the test of Abraham.

Almost certainly... I'm a murderer, liar, and thief... and if God so wishes that I be saved it would only be an example of his divine mercy.

 

[JerryL]

Almost certainly... I'm a murderer, liar, and thief... and if God so wishes that I be saved it would only be an example of his divine mercy.

Actually, I'm referring to the test where God tells Abrham to kill his son.

A murderer? Whom did you kill?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Ummm.... do you believe the command to murder in Deut 13 part of the "commandments" Jesus speaks of in Matthew?

Absolutely: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets."

 

[Scott1]

Absolutely: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets."

Ok... but then he goes on to say he is the Lord of the Sabbath... either I'm correct in my interpretation, or Christ seems a bit confused.... either way, your argument does not hold.

Actually, I'm referring to the test where God tells Abrham to kill his son.

Actually, I knew exactly what you were referring to...

A murderer? Whom did you kill?

Too long a list... and off topic...but I'm looking forward to hearing your point about my failure to live up to the faith of Abraham.

 

[JerryL]

Scott:I don't believe that my conscience would allow me to kill an innocent man/woman
Scott: I'm a murderer

I think the contradiction here is clear; unless you claim to be a murderer of the guilty. I don't suppose you'd be willing to name names so that I can turn you in to the authorities?
​

Scott:I would question the validity of the text that commanded me to do so.... I would not believe that it was truly God's words.

Do you believe that God commanded Abraham to kill his son?
​

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Ok... but then he goes on to say he is the Lord of the Sabbath... either I'm correct in my interpretation, or Christ seems a bit confused.... either way, your argument does not hold.

I'm afraid that I do not understand what you're saying here. What do yu think is meant when he Synoptics speak of "the law", and how would a confused Christ undermine my comments?

 

[Scott1]

I think the contradiction here is clear; unless you claim to be a murderer of the guilty. I don't suppose you'd be willing to name names so that I can turn you in to the authorities?

I was not always a Christian... and to be more specific, not during my time in the military.

Do you believe that God commanded Abraham to kill his son?

Literally? No.

I'm afraid that I do not understand what you're saying here. What do yu think is meant when he Synoptics speak of "the law", and how would a confused Christ undermine my comments?

Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God..... so I'm not sure how you can reconcile Matt 5:17 "...I have come not to abolish but to fulfill." in light of this obvious contradiction.

 

[JerryL]

I was not always a Christian... and to be more specific, not during my time in the military.

And if you committed actual acts of murder, you need to be prosecuted. Perhaps you are confusing "homicide" with "murder".

Literally? No.

Are you throwing out the OT entirely (and the parts of theNT that confirm the OT as true), or just all the many "God commands you to do [things which modern people consider bad]"?

 

[Scott1]

Perhaps you are confusing "homicide" with "murder".

Perhaps... how is this on topic again?

Are you throwing out the OT entirely (and the parts of theNT that confirm the OT as true), or just all the many "God commands you to do [things which modern people consider bad]"?

I sorta pick and choose.... a bit more goes into it, but I don't want to bore you...thanks for asking.

If you'd like to learn more about me, please do so in a PM... or ask on topic questions, please.

 

[Ryan2065]

An interesting question arises, kind of based off Deut's question...

Christians believe that God gave many rules in the OT, but then Jesus came and said "Just Kidding"

Anyways... Do you believe that the laws from the OT were just at that time? So take all the very harsh laws that are written in the OT, are they just for that time period? If so, did something change in the time that all the sudden made it unjust to follow these laws (and therefore required Jesus to come?)

So pretty much, rewind to the time of the OT... are Gods laws really just? I have seen people compare them to todays laws, but in that time... =P

And I'm looking for more insightful answers rather than "Well of course they are just, god said them"

 

[Quiddity]

An interesting question arises, kind of based off Deut's question...

Christians believe that God gave many rules in the OT, but then Jesus came and said "Just Kidding"

Incorrect. This article should help: The Law of God

~Victor

 

[Ryan2065]

Incorrect. This article should help: The Law of God

Should have known people would focus on the "joke" aspect of my post in order to side step the actual question...

 

[Quiddity]

Should have known people would focus on the "joke" aspect of my post in order to side step the actual question...

Had no idea it was joke..:areyoucra
Post the question by itself please.

~Victor

 

[Ryan2065]

Apparently someone cannot scroll up... Questions are those sentences with question marks after them. Namely a sentence with a ? at the end of it!

Anyways... Do you believe that the laws from the OT were just at that time? So take all the very harsh laws that are written in the OT, are they just for that time period? If so, did something change in the time that all the sudden made it unjust to follow these laws (and therefore required Jesus to come?)

So pretty much, rewind to the time of the OT... are Gods laws really just? I have seen people compare them to todays laws, but in that time...

 

[Deut 13:1]

You can't be serious..... God finished speaking to mankind with Deuteronomy 13?

... you believe God's words in verses 1-6, but then you IGNORE God's words in verses 7-11.

7 "If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or your intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known,
8 gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: 9 do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, 10 but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. 11 You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the LORD, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.

Or do you expect me to believe every Jew follows this command?


Hey, don't get me wrong, I'M A JEW... I love ya... but please don't try to explain to me what Christians believe.


In service to the ONE,
Scott

I can't just stone my brother if he says there are 3 G-d's. The proper court procedures must be followed, witnesses, 23 or 71 ordained rabbi's, proof that he knew what he did was wrong, ect...

 

[Scott1]

Christians believe that God gave many rules in the OT, but then Jesus came and said "Just Kidding"

Rather childish way to put it... but I'll play along.

Anyways... Do you believe that the laws from the OT were just at that time? So take all the very harsh laws that are written in the OT, are they just for that time period? If so, did something change in the time that all the sudden made it unjust to follow these laws (and therefore required Jesus to come?)

68 By love, God has revealed himself and given himself to man. He has thus provided the definitive, superabundant answer to the questions that man asks himself about the meaning and purpose of his life.

69 God has revealed himself to man by gradually communicating his own mystery in deeds and in words.

70 Beyond the witness to himself that God gives in created things, he manifested himself to our first parents, spoke to them and, after the fall, promised them salvation (cf. Gen 3:15) and offered them his covenant.

71 God made an everlasting covenant with Noah and with all living beings (cf. Gen 9:16). It will remain in force as long as the world lasts.

72 God chose Abraham and made a covenant with him and his descendants. By the covenant God formed his people and revealed his law to them through Moses. Through the prophets, he prepared them to accept the salvation destined for all humanity.

73 God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son, in whom he has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father's definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after him.

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.
St. John of the Cross

That oughta clear things up for ya.

 

[Scott1]

I can't just stone my brother if he says there are 3 G-d's. The proper court procedures must be followed, witnesses, 23 or 71 ordained rabbi's, proof that he knew what he did was wrong, ect...

That's good to know.... can you give me the Bible verse so I can read the procedure for killing your brother in the proper fashion?