1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Vegetarianism

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by JivanaKrishnaDasa, Aug 9, 2004.

  1. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    558
    Ratings:
    +12
    If someone has cancer and the doctor prescribes something that has garlic in it then that is understandable.

    I see, so it's ok to go against your religious beliefs if so prescribed? Yet, one would not go against their religious beliefs if it was simply beneficial in abating the cancer in the first place?

    I think I'm somewhat more confused than before.

    On the other hand there are many who live to be 80 or 90 and hardly give any regard to God. Such a life is a waste.

    We could take for example, a person who sits around all day doing little more than praying to god and another person who does not pray to gods, yet is spending all their time on medical research and development in the pursuit of curing diseases.

    If I were the one doing the research, I would be pissed as the day is long with someone who sits around praying to god and is telling me I'm wasting my life.
     
  2. Paraprakrti

    Paraprakrti Custom User

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,123
    Ratings:
    +53
    This is a good example of where faith comes in. One has such faith that by being devoted to God he feels that God will bestow him with exactly what is necessary to lead him into further love of God. If one is so paranoid that they will get cancer then paranoia is their disease. Cancer would then be a gift from God. For it would relieve them of this paranoia and perhaps give them peace of mind in order to devote themselves to God.


    Even in such an odd case where one sits around all day and prays to God, they are actually acting for the benefit of all. I have never seen such a case where one was always sitting around doing nothing but praying. Such people that are strongly devoted to God are usually out doing things that appear like any other person. The difference is that everything they do is in service to God. This is how one is relieved of all disease, not just cancer.
     
  3. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    558
    Ratings:
    +12
    Cancer would then be a gift from God. For it would relieve them of this paranoia and perhaps give them peace of mind in order to devote themselves to God.

    I've been staring at that statement in utter bewilderment - this is the same mindset that sets religious belief before human life. Are we to repeat history?

    The difference is that everything they do is in service to God.

    Exactly, and my statement stands.
     
  4. seva108

    seva108 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2
    Ratings:
    +0
    (Q) -

    Once one has an experience of faith, it cannot be denied, and life changes. Temporary objects were once important. They no longer are. The experience of love, eternality, and fullness overwhelms the trivia of this temporary life.

    Your bewilderment is irrelevant.

    What you fail to grasp, in your arrogance, is that billions upon trillions of people have experienced a drop of divinity, and this experience has sustained and shaped their existence. This experience is not worldly or rational. You cannot capture it within the few inches of the circumference of your skull. You cannot measure it with your ruler. SORRY. God doesn't play by your rules.
     
  5. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,380
    Ratings:
    +66
    "We could take for example, a person who sits around all day doing little more than praying to god and another person who does not pray to gods, yet is spending all their time on medical research and development in the pursuit of curing diseases.

    If I were the one doing the research, I would be pissed as the day is long with someone who sits around praying to god and is telling me I'm wasting my life."


    hahahahha. what is your definition of prayer? according to some people, people pray by doing service to others. some people pray 24/7! living thier life fully with God every hour, every minute, every second. dont get me wrong, prayer in a chapel does wonders, but you can pray outside that you kno. while you work, you chant a mantra to keep you concentrated on the task ahead. thank the lord for saving lives.

    you need to widen your preception of certain things.
     
  6. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,380
    Ratings:
    +66
    "Cancer would then be a gift from God. For it would relieve them of this paranoia and perhaps give them peace of mind in order to devote themselves to God."

    i might say that goes a little too far. but God has his reasons for some things. some people think cancer is a curse. but it also has a good side, we now tresure life and the amount of time we have to enjoy and experience every minute of it and not let it go to waste. thats real life. not some busy new york street and watch people pass you by walking very fast and not BEING.

    have you every lived in the present? i mean, for certain events, you are in the mindset of being in anticipation for the next thing you are going to do or event. have you ever thought of being right here, right now, just plain BEING.?
     
  7. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    558
    Ratings:
    +12
    Once one has an experience of faith, it cannot be denied, and life changes.

    And how is one to determine they have had an experience of faith - to what are they to compare, may I ask?

    What you fail to grasp, in your arrogance, is that billions upon trillions of people have experienced a drop of divinity, and this experience has sustained and shaped their existence.

    And what exactly was that 'drop of divinity?' Was it a dream? Did they actually come face to face with their god?

    What you fail to grasp, in your ignorance, is that those people may not have experienced divinity whatsoever. Perhaps it was merely indigestion.

    SORRY. God doesn't play by your rules.

    haha - that's funny and almost clever. Unfortunately, your statement assumes you know those rules. So, what are they?
     
  8. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    558
    Ratings:
    +12
    some people pray 24/7! living thier life fully with God every hour, every minute, every second.

    That is disturbing, to say the least.

    dont get me wrong, prayer in a chapel does wonders

    For whom?

    you need to widen your preception of certain things.

    ... said the pot to the kettle. It is a life-long pursuit to make sure that my perception of things is as accurate as possible - that should be blatantly obvious. It is your lack of perception that has you believing in the non-existent.
     
  9. Paraprakrti

    Paraprakrti Custom User

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,123
    Ratings:
    +53
    Why is their bewilderment? If one is going to die and that be the end, then what is there to lament? On the other hand, if the soul lives on past the death of the body, then what is there to lament? Either way, why the bewilderment? God kills cancer, if not by medicine or some seemingly miraculous happening, then by death. That is God's mercy.
    What is wrong with being mindful of God? Human life is defined by religion. Animal life means eating, sleeping, defending and mating. Humans do this as well but also have the capacity to understand God. If a man denies this ability then he is no better than any animal. We kill animals, so it is not such a shock that cancer kills us. I mean, we are only animals anyway, right? So why do you lament so much for a human life lost to cancer? Why the hypocrisy?


    Stands in bewilderment, apparently.
     
  10. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,380
    Ratings:
    +66
    "It is your lack of perception that has you believing in the non-existent."

    i have looked and questioned everything. and ive realized that there is a divine force that connects us all. to say that is non-existant is pure ignorance. well, thats my opinion. you can be ignorant and not confront all the miricles that happen everday, just to name a few, signs that God is here, ganesh statues drink milk in 1995, marian apparitions (thousands of people saw the sun *dance* at Fatima, thousands saw the cairo Marian apparition above a church reappearing on and off for TWO years, the lourdes water that cure people), and countless other personal miricles that occur daily.
     
  11. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    558
    Ratings:
    +12
    If one is going to die and that be the end

    If death by paranoia were the case, I might agree with you. But one usually doesn't die as a result of paranoia, so replacing it with cancer, which will kill you, seems rather ridiculous in the extreme.

    if the soul lives on past the death of the body

    That's the rub. If we assume there is an eternal life after death, we deflate the value of life as it becomes little more than a prelude to death. If we are wrong about life after death, and our lives were spent in the preparation of that death, our very existence would appear utterly meaningless.

    God kills cancer, if not by medicine or some seemingly miraculous happening, then by death.

    I'm assuming of course your god only uses death as a last resort? ;)

    What is wrong with being mindful of God?

    Nothing I suppose, we all have our dreams. But to confuse it with reality is another thing.

    Human life is defined by religion.

    I would disagree. Human life is defined from a bio-chemical aspect.

    How we interact with one another is defined from a social aspect. Religion is included in those aspects.

    Humans do this as well but also have the capacity to understand God

    Humans are the only animals with the capacity to suspend their disbelief.

    If a man denies this ability (to understand God) then he is no better than any animal... I mean, we are only animals anyway, right?

    I hope this line of reasoning does not rule your thinking process entirely.

    So why do you lament so much for a human life lost to cancer? Why the hypocrisy?

    If the hypocrisy lies in the over-valuing of life in favor of life is a preparation for death, a hypocrite I will remain.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Paraprakrti

    Paraprakrti Custom User

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,123
    Ratings:
    +53
    My point is that we will die, nevertheless, by cancer or by no cancer. I hope that is not too extreme.


    How is this? If life is constitutionally eternal, how does this then deflate it's value? On the contrary, a life that begins and ends with the body is of deflated value. If we are wrong about life after death of the body then ALL activity is utterly meaningless, not just preparation for a life after death that does not exist. "Let me sustain longer so I can enjoy", yet knowing that eventually you must die. This is not very intelligent. So, either way, if we die and cease to exist, then all activity is pointless.


    Why last? It may seem to you to be your last resort, but it is not that God has tried other methods and thus failed. Sometimes God kills cancer one way, sometimes He kills it another.


    Herein lies our problem. What you call your reality is my dream and what I call my dream is your reality. So where is the standard? I do not accept your standard. And you do not accept mine. This is why this conversation isn't going to amount to anything.


    Ok then, we are animals. Why should a bio-chemical aspect be the determining factor as to whether or not we lament for killing a living organism?


    This is not the determining factor of human intellect. Animals typically have no sense of belief or disbelief, so they can neither suspend nor not suspend something that is not present within their mental capacity. The fact that we have the ability to even consider these things constitutes human intelligence. If that intelligence is used to conclude that we are all here by chance and that life means enjoying the senses until we die, then that intelligence is wasted simply because we have gone from acknowledging that intelligence to disregarding it out of the conclusion that it can make no conclusions further from living like an animal who is not even bothered by this intellectual capacity (which is in itself contradictory that we make any conclusions out of intelligence at all, being that those conclusions are null of the importance of intelligence to begin with). If this intelligence is ultimately pointless, then why are we even discussing what is real or not? What difference does it make? This line of reasoning leads to extreme agnosticism, i.e.: nihilism. That nothing can be known. Well, if nothing can be known then how do you know that nothing can be known? If you don't know how you know that nothing can be known, then how do you know that you don't know how you know that nothing can be known? Perhaps you do know that you don't know how you know that nothing can be known, but you don't know it.
    This would be the conclusion (or lack of conclusion) of your line of reasoning, except, at some point you inject faith.


    I wouldn't be quite as concerned with my line of reasoning as you should be with yours.


    It appears then that we have hypocrisy in more than one instance. I was actually referring to the disregard toward killing animals. Why do you condone it yet seemingly lament for the hypothetical child with cancer whose parents do not allow the eating of garlic?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. seva108

    seva108 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2
    Ratings:
    +0
    The closest analogy I can think of would be taste. You are like a man who, lacking a sense of taste, denies that taste exists. You then mock those who discuss the taste of an apple and the differences in taste of different apples.

    To those of us who have felt the reality of Spirit and Divinity, you are ludicrous. You delight only in mocking the experience of others because it doesn't conform to your impaired version of reality. Kinda pathetic, really.

    The divine can touch us in a myriad of ways. The key is that these people throughout history would affirm their experience of the divine. You are denying it simply because you have not had such an experience. That's arrogance.

    You misunderstand. Your rules involve quantification and measurement and repeatability. God doesn't have to prove Himself in the ways that you define. In fact, your whole existence can be bereft of any absolute or eternal purpose or divine experience. It doesn't mean that the absolute or the divine do not exist. Do you get it?
     
  14. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2004
    Messages:
    3,816
    Ratings:
    +515
    I, for one, would like to see (Q)'s "evidence" against God/s. Apparently there is a lot of it. Give us your evidence, and don't let it be "Well, I've never experienced it, so it isn't real.", or anything of that nature.
     
  15. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,380
    Ratings:
    +66
    "That's the rub. If we assume there is an eternal life after death, we deflate the value of life as it becomes little more than a prelude to death. If we are wrong about life after death, and our lives were spent in the preparation of that death, our very existence would appear utterly meaningless."

    how so? if i only had one life, i would probably have sex everyday. steal money and kill whoever comes my way. if i wanted God and love to do good, and realize that karma will affect me, then i will probably live every life to the fullest, in devotion to humanity, the world, and God.
     
  16. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,985
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    I hate to jump in here, but this is a great discussion! Great points, to everyone. All your posts are well written and well thought out. :)

    Ok, there are a couple of problems with the Divine Experience argument. First, keep in mind that a mysterious "sense" of the Divine could also be interpreted as delusion. There are many folks in insane asylums who have the "sense" of seeing pink rabbits flying in the air....

    Secondly, an experience alone does not prove what caused the experience (namely, a sentient, all powerful being who causes similar experiences in others and created the universe). That is a non sequitur. The human brain is the most complex object we know of, so we can't rule out that anything we experience--Divine or otherwise--wasn't caused by natural brain chemistry as opposed to supernatural revelation.

    So--in answer to your question--what is the evidence against God? Well, allow me to pose a counter question: what is the evidence "against" leprechauns? I would submit that a lack of evidence FOR something is good evidence against something.
     
  17. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    558
    Ratings:
    +12
    "Let me sustain longer so I can enjoy", yet knowing that eventually you must die. This is not very intelligent. So, either way, if we die and cease to exist, then all activity is pointless.

    I would agree if I felt life was pointless.

    Sometimes God kills cancer one way, sometimes He kills it another.

    Right after he dispenses it...

    I do not accept your standard. And you do not accept mine.

    Reality is but one standard - no others are apparent aside from what can be conjured in the imagination.

    If that intelligence is used to conclude that we are all here by chance and that life means enjoying the senses until we die, then that intelligence is wasted

    In some, the intelligence has been used to conjure up supernatural beings and places never shown to exist. They worship these beings even though they have never seen them.

    That nothing can be known. Well, if nothing can be known then how do you know that nothing can be known? If you don't know how you know that nothing can be known, then how do you know that you don't know how you know that nothing can be known? Perhaps you do know that you don't know how you know that nothing can be known, but you don't know it.

    Shoo-bee-doo-wop!
     
  18. Paraprakrti

    Paraprakrti Custom User

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,123
    Ratings:
    +53
    Then that "felt" is your faith. Now, given that we know that you do not believe in the existence of God, more specifically, anything beyond your ability to see, hear, smell, taste and touch, we can safely conclude that you have faith in sense gratification. And this can be either your personal sense gratification or it could be other's sense gratification. This is your faith. My faith is in He who is supposedly the master of the senses. I understand that an absolute exists and further from this I have come to convictions that Krsna is the absolute. You may not "feel" life to be pointless, but what is the point of sense gratification, then only to die?


    Basing this specific argument on the premise that God does exist, consider why such a body was dispensed that is prone to cancer in the first place. When you understand why there are so many different types of bodies who fall into different positions of amounts of pleasure and pain, is when you will understand why God dispenses cancer and how He is completely justified in doing so.


    Of course it is. But this is exactly my point. I do not accept your standard as the one and you do not accept my standard as the one. Just as your standard says that I have conjured things up out of speculation, mine says the same for yours.


    You do not know what I have seen. That is your flaw, now you are thinking that your senses are so perfect that you can see what all others see.
     
  19. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    558
    Ratings:
    +12
    You are like a man who, lacking a sense of taste, denies that taste exists. You then mock those who discuss the taste of an apple and the differences in taste of different apples.

    Bad analogy. I can see an apple.

    To those of us who have felt the reality of Spirit and Divinity

    I would wager you didn't have a clue what you felt but assumed it to be "spirit and divinity." You further assume you actually know exactly what these are, without having any reference to them whatsoever.

    There's the old adage, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck."

    But if you have no idea what a duck looks like, how are you supposed to know it is a duck?

    You delight only in mocking the experience of others because it doesn't conform to your impaired version of reality.

    If impaired, what else am I supposed to be seeing? What exactly have you seen that I have not?

    The divine can touch us in a myriad of ways. The key is that these people throughout history would affirm their experience of the divine.

    Affirmation without reference - now there's a concept.

    You are denying it simply because you have not had such an experience. That's arrogance.

    Your superiority complex has been noted.

    Your rules involve quantification and measurement and repeatability. God doesn't have to prove Himself in the ways that you define.

    You make assumptions that you know what your god will and will not do. And by your own logic the rules are not mine, they are your gods rules.

    In fact, your whole existence can be bereft of any absolute or eternal purpose or divine experience. It doesn't mean that the absolute or the divine do not exist. Do you get it?

    I agree, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But how do you know an experience you had is of a divine nature? How can anyone know? Did he provide his 'God Housekeeping' seal of approval? Were you sent a memo?

    I've heard plenty of Argument from Misery fallacies. I've yet to hear one single person describe exactly what it was about their experience that was divine, and how exactly they knew it was divine.

    They had a feeling, you say? Yeah, right.
     
  20. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    558
    Ratings:
    +12
    I, for one, would like to see (Q)'s "evidence" against God/s.

    Sorry, but I never claimed to have evidence against gods. You'll have to show me where I said that.
     
Loading...