Veda Shruti and Modern Science

[ameyAtmA]

Namaste,

saccidAnanda rUpAya vishwatpathyAdi hetave |
tApa-trya-vinAshAya Shri KRushNAya vayam numah: ||
Some points regarding recent things – I just saw many busy threads, have not read them all

However, here is how I see it...
Please Note: The following is mostly for the agnostics, but we must all respect science, scientists and the scientific community for they only make statements on what they can see, prove and infer within their range of available indrIya.

Evolution (spiritual ,and resulting observation - material)
Certainly it is the sUkshma sharIra that evolves – mAnas-buddhi and carries saMskAra from one birth to next like “fragrance of flowers carried by wind” according to BhagavAn Shri KRshNa –
B.G. 15.8 sharIram yad avApnoti
yachcha-api utkrAmatIshwarah:
gRhItwaitAni sauMyAti
vAyurgandhAn iva-AshayAt

Now, how do you expect the karma of Ape 1 to be drastically different from karma of Ape 2 his neighbor? It cannot be. It is collective karma. memes. Mob-pscychology. They all march in step with very very similar karma in the same natural habitat, so they evolve marching in step, gradually.

What chances do you see a mosquito turning into a dinosaur due to past karma? NIL!
The poor mosquito can do only so much good or evil!
Maa PrakRutI also has a responsibility, does She not? She cannot place a dinosaur in an environment that does not suit its survival.

Another point : "Why do we still have apes around if current evolution theory is correct?" was the qn raised. They exist because their group and individual karma places them there. They could have been something totally different, or could have been a sister species that did not learn well.

Doesn’t Shrimad BhAgvatam, the crown jewel of purANa and Padma PurAN state that manushya janma is a prized possession because it is attained after going through 84 crore yonis of various lower species ? Is this not the evolution science tells us about by observation? However, science only sees a small portion of the whole picture.

Limitations of modern science
So, while science makes observations on jaDa prakRuti ONLY, what it has been observing is the result of collective karma of habitats and species as Mother Nature “naturally” expects them to transform without special intervention (I will say transform rather than evolve).
Science does not make statements on things it cannot "see" --- which is not a bad thing. Therefore it does not know or understand the existence of Manus, Rshis, prajApatis, etc. co-existing with very primitive species of life many many years ago. No human or Rshi fossils are found because they were cremated - this is also well-known.

Big Bang
Yes, big bang. so? Science only infers this one big bang (and it is a great achievement no doubt), but it does not know enough (owing to its method and nature of inference) that big bangs keep happening in eternal cyclic form.

This intuitive knowledge and understanding can only come with shraddhA in the Veda shAstra and the ParamAtmA.

NEXT,

Vedas bring rain
This cannot be any more scientific than any science known. Vedas are Shabda Brahman’ , the nAda brahman’ that manifests with the correct, precise, shraddhA-pUrNa, bhAva-pUrNa , preeti-pUrNa recital of the ruchi, shloka, in the right chhanda (meter, rhythm),
THAT pleases the sarvAntaryAmi BhagvAn, NArAyaNa svayam, and it pleases the Devas presiding over various limbs and aspects of nature at both pinDAnDa (individual) and bramhAnDa (universal) levels (atmospheric water cycle – Indra, indrIya – Indra ;
eyes – sUrya and Ashwini kumAr, vision, sunlight, solar-system balance, sustains life ;
mind - Chandra – moon, affects nurture of aushadhI (herbs) and oceanic tides and minds of individuals – hence ~ rAdhA , mAnasa chandramA ~
… and so on.)

Now let's look at this thru’ the lens of modern science : Sound vibrations – in the scientific pattern given to us by prANanAtha vallabh ---> causes vibrations of energy waves ---> of matter ---> causes heat transfer ---> activates the atmospheric water-cycle ---> causes clouds, and rain.

*The collective prema-bhAva, AsthA, shraddhA and reverence of the ved-pAThak brAmhaNa -- the role played by consciousness - - is unseen to the scientific community with their naked eye.
*IcchA Shakti , Kriya Shakti , DnyAna (jnana) shakti --- which is understood by Hindus is unknown and unseen hence not acknowledged by science.

TAnsen sings in raag malhAr at the court of Akbar to bring rain. (TAnsen was around at the time of VitthalnAth Goswami (Gusainji), VallabhAchArya’s 2nd son. Vitthal (KRshNa) at PanDharpUr had promised Vallabhacharya that He Himself (Vitthal) will take birth as Vallabhacharya’s son.)
More..... Is it any wonder that KRshNa can light lamps by merely playing His flute?

Anyways, this is how I look at it and I am sure many Hindus, vendantins right in this forum agree with this.

So, moral of the story: Vaidika vAk is as scientific as science can be. Have faith in the Vedas. Truth is multi-dimensional, kaleidoscopic, not black and white. Many a times it is about one’s comprehension, black-white thinking, perspective or bias, not about truth vs. myth.

Comments welcome.

And may the Divine descend and unite us all in prema!

Maa YashodA ke ghar lAlo bhayo hai!!!

KAnho GokuL Ayo hai!!! (Sorry, my darling Baby KAnhU, I cannot wait unit August, it is too far away!)

Nanda ghar Ananda bhayo jai KanhaiyA lAl ki ~

 

[kalyan]

we like you to post more ......On an unrelated note, I was just reading some snippets of Sri Rahasya Trayam(Thanks to our dear poster Terese for asking a question which made do some search and unknowingly I hit this blog which mentioned Rahasya Trayam) ...Rahasya Trayam is by Swamy Vedanta Desika and I am telling you this is out of the world, I mean come on......The things mentioned in it are absolute mind boggling and these things can be revealed by none other than bhagawAn himself is what I feel.......I am acknowledged to my dear acharyAs....

On topic ---Good OP but one thing is a jIva going from a stone to a tree to a small ant to a big ant to a deer and into elephant and then into human is not accepted in Vedam although it could happen but this is not always the case. A jIva can directly go from being a tree to a human directly and it all depends upon what Krushna decides is for the best for the jIva to get to him and can also dependent on the huge karma stock that is lying there for him.

Krushna could do a simple query from the huge partitioned and indexed database he maintains( or he could be the actual DB) ,
Select SUM(ACCUMULATED_KARMA) from jIvaDB where jIvaId='xxx' and RECORDED_TIME between RAND(time) and RAND(time)

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Why do we still have apes around if current evolution theory is correct?"

Science only infers this one big bang (and it is a great achievement no doubt), but it does not know enough (owing to its method and nature of inference) that big bangs keep happening in eternal cyclic form.

Ameya, our views, sure, differ. I will take two points from your post.

The apes are still there because like two brothers they gave rise to different families with different qualities.

Science agrees that there could be many Bangs, perhaps they are happening in different planes all the time about which we have no inkling at the moment. But science is not sure about them. Science is not sure about even this Bang Bang. Hopefully, the recent experiments with 'gravity waves' will perhaps give us more clues as to what happened. Till now, science was doubtful if they are ever going to know anything beyond the great expansion (inflation).

As for rain, I wish some Vedic pundit should have conducted the correct Yajna for deficient rains. That would have saved many farmer lives.

 

[ameyAtmA]

Thank you KalyAN ji

Rahasya Trayam is by Swamy Vedanta Desika and I am telling you this is out of the world, I mean come on......The things mentioned in it are absolute mind boggling and these things can be revealed by none other than bhagawAn himself is what I feel

I will definitely look it up, and can relate to everything that BhagvAn has revealed in past history to aLwars and other devotees.
Actually, apart from the amazing special daivi anubha He gives us, every moment there is some revelation, and events are so inter-connected, it continues to happen and if we write it down with all the links and connections, it will turn into a 1000 page book, therefore it is best left unmanifested (avyakta) at Shri KRshNa's Lotus Feet from Whose grace it all began in the first place. It makes you swim in the ocean of oneness -- my anubhav and your anybhav Kalyan, and his and hers and theirs and aLwars, and Vedanta Deshikas -- it is all from One source, ShriKRshNa Govinda Mukunda MAdhav NArAyaNa Shri Hari -- therefore no energy is left for the ego to raise its head anymore....

On topic ---Good OP but one thing is a jIva going from a stone to a tree to a small ant to a big ant to a deer and into elephant and then into human is not accepted in Vedam although it could happen but this is not always the case.

Correct, but prakruti will generally not intervene in this process. What is 'observed' by science is really what happens in 99% of the ignorant jagat (universe).

A jIva can directly go from being a tree to a human directly and it all depends upon what Krushna decides is for the best for the jIva to get to him and can also dependent on the huge karma stock that is lying there for him.

Of course! You and I know that, but this is what is hidden from science right now. However, this is only 0.00001% of cases. See, BhagavAn likes to put thinks on auto-pilot and relax in the ksheersAgar for all practical purposes.
Moreover, science does not know that DevaRshi NArad gave the disrespectful young Gandharvas a shAp to go become Yamal-Arjuna trees but simultaneously blessed them to be liberated at the hands of Little DAmodar (KRshNa).

Krushna could do a simple query from the huge partitioned and indexed database he maintains( or he could be the actual DB) ,
Select SUM(ACCUMULATED_KARMA) from jIvaDB where jIvaId='xxx' and RECORDED_TIME between RAND(time) and RAND(time)

ha ha of course He can do anything He wants. He is the Ultimate Transcendental DBA. He can zap records of devotees and tell them "tum bhi kyA yAd karoge, vatsa !" but He will not do that simply out of the blue with a random jiva (even devotees) because He is lokAshyaksha, dharmAdhyaksha and sUrAdhyakshya (VishNusahasranAma).
He is the epitome of Dharma. He is the best Ultimate and Fairest judge, the Most Loving pAlak (parent, guardian), although He never interferes with karma of beings (Gita Chapter 4). On the other hand, ones the devotee is fully sharaNAgat, and wants to simpy be an instrument of His Will, then ShyAmsundar will zap the records, sure.

NArAyaNa's inherent nature, Grace, karuNA, kindness, is what 99% of the universe
-- does not know
-- does not care about
-- is indifferent to
-- is unaware of
and the beings or entities do not feel they even need it.

For the most part, if the individual does not turn to GhanashyAm, the process does not begin. Therefore, very gently He leaves them alone in their comfort zone. Even after it does due to past puNya karma and grace of bhAgvats and BhagavAn Svayam, the 100% sharaNAgatI may not come over-night, as there is complacency as well. He just wants all jivas to be comfortable from their perspective, in any given moment. He does not want to disrupt a child engrossed in playing.
This IS His compassion, and not His indifference.

 

[ameyAtmA]

The apes are still there because like two brothers they gave rise to different families with different qualities.

Namaste, of course, that is what I am saying - partly, except you are not looking behind the scene for why there were families with different qualities or guNa -- like modern science you are also looking at mere observation. Plus, apparently you did not read the full thing I wrote:

Another point : "Why do we still have apes around if current evolution theory is correct?" was the qn raised.
They exist because their group and individual karma places them there. They could have
A) been something totally different - say birds,
OR
B) could have been a sister species that did not learn well.

So I was suggesting 2 possibilities .
1. A totally different species collectively became Apes today
2. The same species diverted --- one went north another went south and some remained where they were. (north and south is in terms of karma not geography)

Who are we to say that one family is good and another is bad? "They did not learn well" is just a perspective. From their angle, they learned well enough to remain Apes and are probably proud of continuing their heritage. Who are we to judge them? BhagavAn loves us all equally. He does not say Ape1's family is good and Ape2's is bad. They are simply , scientifically what they are as a result of guNa -- karma -- guNa.
Apple falls on the ground by gravity
Clouds bring rain
Things happen
karma gives rise to guNas.

As for rain, I wish some Vedic pundit should have conducted the correct Yajna for deficient rains. That would have saved many farmer lives.

I agree, Aupmanyavji. It is extremely sad although predicted in Bhagvat. Therefore, jAgo, bhArat, jAgo. More and more enlightened Veda pundits are needed and it is sad that this should happen in BhArat.
Plus, it was not just drought, but also expensive seeds the farmers could not afford to buy, and they could not survive in a competitive market --- all induced by giant companies elsewhere. I don't want to continue discussing this though. It just makes me sad.

 

[atanu]

Pray let us not make Hinduism Dir into a debating forum.

 

[ameyAtmA]

Pray let us not make Hinduism Dir into a debating forum.

I agree Atanuji, and this new thread's intention was presentation of views and not debate as such. Just as points to ponder, if not necessarily to agree with immediately. It was nice talking to you.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There is no question of good and bad. Rose or Tulips are available in many colors, Though all roses belong to the same family. Some have fragrance, some don't. It is all because of "evolution".

"Rosales is an order of flowering plants. It is sister to a clade consisting of Fagales and Cucurbitales. It contains about 7700 species, distributed into about 260 genera. Rosales comprise nine families, the type family being the rose family, Rosaceae."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosales

"The rose subfamily Rosoideae consists of more than 850 species, including many shrubs, perennial herbs, and fruit plants such as strawberries and brambles."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosoideae

This the type of variety that evolution produces.

 

[kalyan]

There is no question of good and bad. Rose or Tulips are available in many colors, though they are of the same family. Some have fragrance, some don't. It is all because of "evolution".

"The rose subfamily Rosoideae consists of more than 850 species, including many shrubs, perennial herbs, and fruit plants such as strawberries and brambles. Only a few are annual herbs."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosoideae

That is not evolution, evolution means to evolve.. If you have 2 kids, the 2 kids can be pretty different, calling that an evolution is absurd.

If evolution is possible, you could see dogs transforming into humans and vice verse and you would see one species coming from the others and not to mention if evolution happened, then you would be agreeing to the idea that an ape or apes at one time had human face and ape body as they are evolving and imagine it give birth to some other ape and what would that look like and not to mention the fact that all the apes should evolve and not just selective apes and that would mean all the humans in the world have some selective apes as forefathers hahahha .......One last thing is imagine grandkid calling 'Grandpa you are an ape' or you saying 'papa you are an ape' hihihi ..Darwin and his monkey gang fail at logic and he should be given the greatest prize for bull****ting the people.

Its all bs Sir..

 

[निताइ dasa]

Namaste,

saccidAnanda rUpAya vishwatpathyAdi hetave |
tApa-trya-vinAshAya Shri KRushNAya vayam numah: ||
Some points regarding recent things – I just saw many busy threads, have not read them all

However, here is how I see it...
Please Note: The following is mostly for the agnostics, but we must all respect science, scientists and the scientific community for they only make statements on what they can see, prove and infer within their range of available indrIya.

Evolution (spiritual ,and resulting observation - material)
Certainly it is the sUkshma sharIra that evolves – mAnas-buddhi and carries saMskAra from one birth to next like “fragrance of flowers carried by wind” according to BhagavAn Shri KRshNa –
B.G. 15.8 sharIram yad avApnoti
yachcha-api utkrAmatIshwarah:
gRhItwaitAni sauMyAti
vAyurgandhAn iva-AshayAt

Now, how do you expect the karma of Ape 1 to be drastically different from karma of Ape 2 his neighbor? It cannot be. It is collective karma. memes. Mob-pscychology. They all march in step with very very similar karma in the same natural habitat, so they evolve marching in step, gradually.

What chances do you see a mosquito turning into a dinosaur due to past karma? NIL!
The poor mosquito can do only so much good or evil!
Maa PrakRutI also has a responsibility, does She not? She cannot place a dinosaur in an environment that does not suit its survival.

Another point : "Why do we still have apes around if current evolution theory is correct?" was the qn raised. They exist because their group and individual karma places them there. They could have been something totally different, or could have been a sister species that did not learn well.

Doesn’t Shrimad BhAgvatam, the crown jewel of purANa and Padma PurAN state that manushya janma is a prized possession because it is attained after going through 84 crore yonis of various lower species ? Is this not the evolution science tells us about by observation? However, science only sees a small portion of the whole picture.

Limitations of modern science
So, while science makes observations on jaDa prakRuti ONLY, what it has been observing is the result of collective karma of habitats and species as Mother Nature “naturally” expects them to transform without special intervention (I will say transform rather than evolve).
Science does not make statements on things it cannot "see" --- which is not a bad thing. Therefore it does not know or understand the existence of Manus, Rshis, prajApatis, etc. co-existing with very primitive species of life many many years ago. No human or Rshi fossils are found because they were cremated - this is also well-known.

Big Bang
Yes, big bang. so? Science only infers this one big bang (and it is a great achievement no doubt), but it does not know enough (owing to its method and nature of inference) that big bangs keep happening in eternal cyclic form.

This intuitive knowledge and understanding can only come with shraddhA in the Veda shAstra and the ParamAtmA.

NEXT,

Vedas bring rain
This cannot be any more scientific than any science known. Vedas are Shabda Brahman’ , the nAda brahman’ that manifests with the correct, precise, shraddhA-pUrNa, bhAva-pUrNa , preeti-pUrNa recital of the ruchi, shloka, in the right chhanda (meter, rhythm),
THAT pleases the sarvAntaryAmi BhagvAn, NArAyaNa svayam, and it pleases the Devas presiding over various limbs and aspects of nature at both pinDAnDa (individual) and bramhAnDa (universal) levels (atmospheric water cycle – Indra, indrIya – Indra ;
eyes – sUrya and Ashwini kumAr, vision, sunlight, solar-system balance, sustains life ;
mind - Chandra – moon, affects nurture of aushadhI (herbs) and oceanic tides and minds of individuals – hence ~ rAdhA , mAnasa chandramA ~
… and so on.)

Now let's look at this thru’ the lens of modern science : Sound vibrations – in the scientific pattern given to us by prANanAtha vallabh ---> causes vibrations of energy waves ---> of matter ---> causes heat transfer ---> activates the atmospheric water-cycle ---> causes clouds, and rain.

*The collective prema-bhAva, AsthA, shraddhA and reverence of the ved-pAThak brAmhaNa -- the role played by consciousness - - is unseen to the scientific community with their naked eye.
*IcchA Shakti , Kriya Shakti , DnyAna (jnana) shakti --- which is understood by Hindus is unknown and unseen hence not acknowledged by science.

TAnsen sings in raag malhAr at the court of Akbar to bring rain. (TAnsen was around at the time of VitthalnAth Goswami (Gusainji), VallabhAchArya’s 2nd son. Vitthal (KRshNa) at PanDharpUr had promised Vallabhacharya that He Himself (Vitthal) will take birth as Vallabhacharya’s son.)
More..... Is it any wonder that KRshNa can light lamps by merely playing His flute?

Anyways, this is how I look at it and I am sure many Hindus, vendantins right in this forum agree with this.

So, moral of the story: Vaidika vAk is as scientific as science can be. Have faith in the Vedas. Truth is multi-dimensional, kaleidoscopic, not black and white. Many a times it is about one’s comprehension, black-white thinking, perspective or bias, not about truth vs. myth.

Comments welcome.

And may the Divine descend and unite us all in prema!

Maa YashodA ke ghar lAlo bhayo hai!!!

KAnho GokuL Ayo hai!!! (Sorry, my darling Baby KAnhU, I cannot wait unit August, it is too far away!)

Nanda ghar Ananda bhayo jai KanhaiyA lAl ki ~

This is a very beautiful post. Thank you so much. I agree thoroughly with you. Srimad Bhagavatam ki Jaya!!

 

[ameyAtmA]

There is no question of good and bad. Rose or Tulips are available in many colors, though they are of the same family. Some have fragrance, some don't. It is all because of "evolution".

"The rose subfamily Rosoideae consists of more than 850 species, including many shrubs, perennial herbs, and fruit plants such as strawberries and brambles. Only a few are annual herbs."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosoideae

Of course, Agreed and Vedas give us the spiritual reason behind this scientific observation. That is all, but that makes them holistic, because science is limited to gross material observations and samplings only.
Apple falls down. Earth revolves around Sun. GuNa -- karma -- guNa.
What our dharma says is as "matter-of-fact" as what science observes. That is what I meant by Bhagvan is not judging the families for the routes they take. They simply ARE, and He loves them.

Anyway, I am out of this thread. Sorry Atanuji and Thanks for protecting the thread.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, we know all the stages between our ape ancestor and modern humans. We have a very good idea of what they looked like, their structure, their gait, eating habits, etc. I am really surprised by what you write.

You can find information about all these species in Wikipedia.

I would again say that Hinduism is one of the religions (probably the only one) which is not static. I consider it a crime to make it unscientific. We are living in 21st Century and have reached the moon long back. Our rockets have crossed the limits of solar system. Move with times, Gentlemen. Let us not be 'koopa-mandookas'. Good night.

 

[ameyAtmA]

This is a very beautiful post. Thank you so much. I agree thoroughly with you. Srimad Bhagavatam ki Jaya!!

Oh I had not seen this. Indeed, Shrimad BhAgvatam ki Jay!! Shri BhAgavat BhagavAn ki hai Arati, pApiyonke pAp ko hai tArati ~

Thank You Nitaiji for the beautiful posts and bhajans in the forum.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Oh I had not seen this. Indeed, Shrimad BhAgvatam ki Jay!! Shri BhAgavat BhagavAn ki hai Arati, pApiyonke pAp ko hai tArati ~

Thank You Nitaiji for the beautiful posts and bhajans in the forum.

It is always the greatest bliss to meet a Krsna Bhakta, I should take the dust from your feet, because you are so exalted. I am not Krsna Bhakta yet (He is way too high for me), but I simply pray at the lotus feet of the Vaishnavs to give me Sri Krsna, because only they can.

"Ohe Vaishnav Thakur, doyara sagar, e dase karuna karo,"

"O Vaishnava Thakur, you are an ocean of mercy, please be merciful to this servant."

"krsna sei tomara, krsna dite pare, tomare shakti ache
ami to kangala Krsna Krsna boli dhore tave pache pache"

"Krsna is yours, therefore only you have the power to give me Krsna. I am wretched, simply chanting Krsna Krsna, I am following behind you"

 

[kalyan]

Yes, we know all the stages between our ape ancestor and modern humans. We have a very good idea of what they looked like, their structure, their gait, eating habits, etc. I am really surprised by what you write.

You can find information about all these species in Wikipedia.

I would again say that Hinduism is one of the religions (probably the only one) which is not static. I consider it a crime to make it unscientific. We are living in 21st Century and have reached the moon long back. Our rockets have crossed the limits of solar system. Move with times, Gentlemen. Let us not be 'koopa-mandookas'. Good night.

LOL at the picture, it is worse than I thought, so are you inferring that ape suddenly became human without even gradual transformation ? Who would believe such crap ? come on ! Son : Father, you are an ape before ? Father: Yes son, I have been ape all my life and then suddenly I changed to this human form at the age of 30( apes and human lifespan matches, another flaw) and gave birth to you, and oh your mother also is an ape.......hahaha...please for the gods sake stop pushing this bs onto us

 

[atanu]

Let no one discard the factual observations of scientists and at the same time let no one reject or distort Shruti by hand waving factual observations.

Factual observations are sensual. Shruti is not.

 

[kalyan]

Let no one discard the factual observations of scientists and at the same time let no one reject or distort Shruti by hand waving factual observations.

Factual observations are sensual. Shruti is not.

What or where is science in that ? Prove it or admit you are defeated .........also are you of the idea that ape suddenly transformed to human ?

 

[atanu]

What or where is science in that ? Prove it or admit you are defeated .........also are you of the idea that ape suddenly transformed to human ?

Ha. Ha. Kalyan. I always stand defeated.

 

[kalyan]

Ha. Ha. Kalyan. I always stand defeated.

you don't have a counter which is sad, so you should not start supporting evolution/denying it in first place, don't you think ?

 

[Aupmanyav]

LOL at the picture, it is worse than I thought, so are you inferring that ape suddenly became human without even gradual transformation ? Who would believe such crap ? come on ! Son : Father, you are an ape before ? Father: Yes son, I have been ape all my life and then suddenly I changed to this human form at the age of 30( apes and human lifespan matches, another flaw) and gave birth to you, and oh your mother also is an ape.......hahaha...please for the gods sake stop pushing this bs onto us

Read the time line. From Hominidae to Homo sapiens sapiens (modern humans), it took us 7,000,000 years. And our species is not more than 200,000 years old (out of Earth's age of 4,550 million years, that is 0.0043956% of Earth's age). Yes, we belong to the Ape subfamly (Homininae), though our tribe is different from that of apes. Chimps belong to our tribe (Tribe Hominini). They are Panina subtribe, we are Homonini. See this: http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shree-rama-all-over-the-world.184768/page-3#post-4642065. You do need some science education. But I do not think that is your line. Be happy with Vishnu.