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Vayera question(s)

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
There is one question related to Vayera that has been burning in my mind these last few years:
In the parsha, it's stated that Avraham told the angels to wash their feet. Rashi brings a gemara which states:

"“Let now a little water be fetched and wash your feet” (Genesis 18:4). Rabbi Yannai, son of Rabbi Yishmael, said that the guests said to Abraham: Are you suspicious that we are Arabs who bow to the dust of their feet?"​

Rashi actually twists this a bit: In the gemara, the angels are asking Avraham whether he is suspicious that they are idolatrous Arabs. Rashi however understands this to mean that Avraham did, in fact, suspect them of being idolatrous Arabs (see here and here) and apparently the angels subsequently caught on to his suspicions.

What I'm wondering is: What is this form of idolatry that involves prostrating to dust? I suspect that at the very least, the Tannaim were referring to a type of Arab idolatry that was known during their time.

I have previously asked this on Stackexchange and I even asked the BIU Jewish history department head after a class last year (one of his fields of expertise is idolatry in Jewish sources, particularly from the Hellenistic and Roman periods). He gave me some names of Arab deities, but I couldn't connect any of them to dust prostration. I found out a lot of interesting things about pre-Islamic Arab idolatry, but nothing explicit about dust prostration. Earlier today, after the umpteenth search, I came across an essay (here, p. 350) by Samuel Krauss where he suggests that perhaps pre-Islamic Arabs were of the habit of prostrating without a rug. But this explanation seems rather weak.

Ideas and sources welcome.

And you can of course post your own questions on the parsha here.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The Bartenura writes (I'm adding the bold and underline)
דהכי קאמר שהיה אברהם סבור שהיו עושין כמו שעושין הערביים עכשיו שמשתחוים לאבק רגליהם

is that achshav in the Bartenura's time?

The Gur Aryeh writes
יש מקשים איך היו עושים אלהות אבק שברגליהם, ואין זה קשיא, דאם כן יקשה לך "זבוב אלקי עקרון" (מ"ב א, ג) שהיו משתחוים לזבוב, ומאי ממש יש בזבוב שיהיה מתירא מן הזבוב, אבל בעלי עבודה זרה היה סכלות דעתם כי השם יתברך ברוך הוא – אלקים קדושים הוא, אי אפשר לעבוד לו, ובחרו בכוחות שהם אינם קדושים, והם ממונים על דברים פחותים, ובעבור שאינם קדושים הם קרובים אל האדם הפחות, ולפיכך בחר זה בזבוב וזה באבק, כי היו עובדים לכחות של אלו דברים אשר הם בחלקם, כי האבק שברגל – דבר פחות ושפל מאד הוא, והיו הערבים סבורים כי האדם אשר הוא במעלה גדולה – ואין לך בתחתונים יותר גדול מן האדם במדריגה – והוא תחת המדריגה השפלה אשר בעליונים, ולפיכך היו עובדים לאבק שברגליהם, לאותו שהוא ממונה עליו למעלה. וידוע הוא כי אין דבר שפל כמו האבק שברגל, ואין דבר ממונה עליו רק הכח אשר הוא קטון יותר בכחות העליונים, והיו אומרים כי האדם הוא נכנע למדריגה השפלה שבעליונים, והאבק דרכים הוא דמות למדריגה השפלה יותר, והאבק בחלקו, כי כל התחתונים בחלקו של עליונים הם:
ועוד דע כי הערביים הם נוסעים ממקום למקום, ואין להם חנייה וישוב רק הם יושבי אוהלים, ולפיכך הם הולכי דרכים ויש להם אבק ברגליהם תמיד, ולפיכך הם משתחוים לאבק, שהערביים היו אומרים שהם נתונים תחת שר הדרך, שהרי הם הולכי דרכים תמיד, ולפיכך היו הערביים משתחוים לאבק שברגליהם – שהוא אבק דרכים. וכמו שהעובדים למזל טלה היו עובדים לבהמות, מפני שהבהמות במזל טלה, כך הערביים מפני שהיו עובדים למזל הדרך – לכך היו משתחוים לאבק דרכים שברגליהם:

so he understands the specific practice as reflective of actual behavior -- though he doesn't cite any source other than his own observations.

My own thought hearkens back to the entire development of avodah zara (if I remember the medrash correctly). People saw the sun and moon etc as representative of Hashem and wanted to recognize them as representatives of divine power but over time, the representative became the thing imbued by the worshippers with independent power. Pirkei Avot 1:4 says that we should cling to the dust of the feet of scholars. Maybe the concern was that certain peoples started admiring the dust separate from the scholars, as a source of knowledge or authority, so they adored/worshipped the dust.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
The Bartenura writes (I'm adding the bold and underline)
דהכי קאמר שהיה אברהם סבור שהיו עושין כמו שעושין הערביים עכשיו שמשתחוים לאבק רגליהם

is that achshav in the Bartenura's time?
The Bartenura's addage is very interesting. I wonder though if that's just what his gemara said? If it's his own addage, then this interpretation strengthens Krauss's theory.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
There is one question related to Vayera that has been burning in my mind these last few years:
In the parsha, it's stated that Avraham told the angels to wash their feet. Rashi brings a gemara which states:

"“Let now a little water be fetched and wash your feet” (Genesis 18:4). Rabbi Yannai, son of Rabbi Yishmael, said that the guests said to Abraham: Are you suspicious that we are Arabs who bow to the dust of their feet?"​

Rashi actually twists this a bit: In the gemara, the angels are asking Avraham whether he is suspicious that they are idolatrous Arabs. Rashi however understands this to mean that Avraham did, in fact, suspect them of being idolatrous Arabs (see here and here) and apparently the angels subsequently caught on to his suspicions.

What I'm wondering is: What is this form of idolatry that involves prostrating to dust? I suspect that at the very least, the Tannaim were referring to a type of Arab idolatry that was known during their time.

I have previously asked this on Stackexchange and I even asked the BIU Jewish history department head after a class last year (one of his fields of expertise is idolatry in Jewish sources, particularly from the Hellenistic and Roman periods). He gave me some names of Arab deities, but I couldn't connect any of them to dust prostration. I found out a lot of interesting things about pre-Islamic Arab idolatry, but nothing explicit about dust prostration. Earlier today, after the umpteenth search, I came across an essay (here, p. 350) by Samuel Krauss where he suggests that perhaps pre-Islamic Arabs were of the habit of prostrating without a rug. But this explanation seems rather weak.

Ideas and sources welcome.

And you can of course post your own questions on the parsha here.

Did you come across the following?

הערבים עובדים לעפר רגליהם ? - פורום לתורה

A few interesting responses.

upload_2022-11-6_22-36-18.png


upload_2022-11-6_22-37-38.png


upload_2022-11-6_22-44-1.png
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I probably did come across this but don't remember. It's interesting, but I remain unconvinced. I'm not simply looking for commentaries on the gemara. I'm looking for research on the matter - historical sources, archeological findings, etc. It's easy to say: Oh, they were actually worshipping Mother Earth. But it's much more difficult to actually prove that they had some kind of Mother Earth-type deity. That might be the correct explanation, but I want to see if there's evidence for that.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I probably did come across this but don't remember. It's interesting, but I remain unconvinced. I'm not simply looking for commentaries on the gemara. I'm looking for research on the matter - historical sources, archeological findings, etc. It's easy to say: Oh, they were actually worshipping Mother Earth. But it's much more difficult to actually prove that they had some kind of Mother Earth-type deity. That might be the correct explanation, but I want to see if there's evidence for that.

I understand. One of the problems you run into is trying to define what was meant by an (ערביים), back then, from their perspective. Also, when Islam came on the scene a lot of that stuff that existed previously went the way of the dust.

There are also some areas in the Middle East that have not have had extensive archeological research. Further, not every ethnic group in the region left something behind describing what thier cultural practices were and what they meant to them. It is similar to the problem of modern day scholars trying to define who the Canaanites were and what their religion was.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I understand. One of the problems you run into is trying to define what was meant by an (ערביים), back then, from their perspective
That's a good point. I've tried to also look into other groups that might fall under thus umbrella, such as the Nabateans, who were referred to as Arabs by Josephus. More ideas always welcome.
There are also some areas in the Middle East that have not have had extensive archeological research
Yes, I agree. And the more vicious, violent and uncooperative the modern governments are, the more difficult it is to continue research. :(
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Ideas and sources welcome.
If I understand correctly, the most common pagan practices at that time was ancestor worship / intercession. Gravedirt from ancestors, believe it or not, was believed in various traditions to be protective. Smearing some on your feet before a journey would fit into this belief. Those who were reluctant to wash their feet, might be suspect for this sort of pagan practice.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I will admit that there is an element of this that sounds like elements of Pacahmama.

I once did a deep dive into the history of various Avodah Zara around the world. Often some of the elements overlap to the point that if you find practice or concept in one place the likelyhood is tha you are going to find it somewhere else.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
If I understand correctly, the most common pagan practices at that time was ancestor worship / intercession. Gravedirt from ancestors, believe it or not, was believed in various traditions to be protective. Smearing some on your feet before a journey would fit into this belief. Those who were reluctant to wash their feet, might be suspect for this sort of pagan practice.
Interesting, I didn't know that. Actually, there is a discussion among researchers whether pre-Islamic Arabs had ancestor worship. I'll look into that again.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Interesting, I didn't know that. Actually, there is a discussion among researchers whether pre-Islamic Arabs had ancestor worship. I'll look into that again.
Just doing a bit of googling to confirm my recollection on this. What I'm seeing is that ancestor worship was virtually universal among primitive religions. It would be odd that Arabian primitive religions would be excluded.

The other thing you may want to look at is the pagan significance and usage of grave dirt as a talisman.

Here's what I'm reading now: The Universality of Ancestor Worship on JSTOR

ETA: ^^ That paper on Jstor didn't have anything on Arabian primitive religion, sadly.... I recall that many African tribal religions include ancestor worship. But at this point, I'll let you do your own research.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Still going through the Shney Luchot HaBrit. I'm confused by this:

The Talmud, quoting the dialogue between Satan and G–d, has Satan stress the word לפניך, meaning that Abraham did not offer a sacrifice to G–d directly.​

The only link to the Talmud from this passage is Sanhedrin 89, and I see nothing in there stressing לפניך. Ironically I just started a thread on intercession; if someone can help me find a source for this I would greatly appreciate reading it myself. Preferably in English, please.
 
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