Value and it being proof of God.

[Link]

The argument is this and simple:

Humans have objective value.
Humans would not have objective value without God.

Another way to phrase this:

The value of humans is not illusionary but an objective reality.
Without God, there is no objective reality to the value of human beings.

This simple argument would prove God.

I've for years agued for both premises. I will not do so in this thread, but in another one, but just want to see people thoughts on each.

The following I hope will be responded in posts if people deny the 2nd premise:

(1) If God doesn't exist, what is a human's value?
(2) What is the measurement and criteria of the human's value if God doesn't exist?
(3) How did evolution bring us to value objectively and not in illusionary magical made up way?

I believe God's light and value himself is the basis of all value, he lives with all things in this sense and is immersed with them.

If you deny or doubt the first premise, here are some questions:

(1) Why do believe in value and love human beings and appreciate states of being in form of good actions and will of humans?
(2) How do you know humans don't objective value?
(3) If we do have objective value, should we doubt it?
(4) If we do perceive objective value, why should we doubt anything about it including if it's God's light?

 

[ChristineM]

Humans have objective value.
Humans would not have objective value without God.

Yes they would

 

[McBell]

Humans have objective value.

What is it?

 

[Link]

@ChristineM

The following I hope will be responded in posts if people deny the 2nd premise:

(1) If God doesn't exist, what is a human's value?
(2) What is the measurement and criteria of the human's value if God doesn't exist?
(3) How did evolution bring us to value objectively and not in illusionary magical made up way?

 

[Link]

What is it?

I said I won't be arguing for either premise in this thread. More interested in other people's thoughts in this thread. I will make another thread another time, arguing in detail what I believe about value and it's link to God.

 

[McBell]

I said I won't be arguing for either premise in this thread. More interested in other people's thoughts in this thread. I will make another thread another time, arguing in detail what I believe about value and it's link to God.

My thought is that you have presented a long list of bold empty claims.
That you won't argue or discuss your long list of bold empty claims makes the thread rather useless don't you think?

 

[Link]

My thought is that you have presented a long list of bold empty claims.
That you won't argue or discuss your long list of bold empty claims makes the thread rather useless don't you think?

It's not useless, instead, I am inquiring into people's thoughts about the two premises. Even put some questions that should help facilitate a detailed reflected response to this topic.

 

[ChristineM]

@ChristineM

1 to be the best human bringnyou can and pass your knowledge to future generations.
2 see 1
3 what?

 

[Link]

best human is not telling us anything about value sorry. Knowledge, that is something, how does it relate to value. Elaborate, and what else relates to value and why. The other 2 questions are important as well.

 

[Link]

I noticed I put in wrong section, meant to put it in religious debate section.

 

[ratiocinator]

Humans have objective value.

Not a good start. Value itself is a subjective concept.

(1) Why do believe in value and love human beings and appreciate states of being in form of good actions and will of humans?

Human beings generally value human beings but that doesn't make the value objective.

(2) How do you know humans don't objective value?

Attempting to reverse the burden of proof - it's your premiss. How do you know they do?

(3) If we do have objective value, should we doubt it?
(4) If we do perceive objective value, why should we doubt anything about it including if it's God's light?

These are not relevant if you're questioning the premiss.

 

[Link]

These are not relevant if you're questioning the premiss.

They are very relevant, but your response is showing you have not deeply thought about this issue.

 

[ChristineM]

best human is not telling us anything about value sorry. Knowledge, that is something, how does it relate to value. Elaborate, and what else relates to value and why. The other 2 questions are important as well.

So you think humanity is worthless without a bronze age myth to hope and believe in.

There are many ways to value a human, from their value to there family to their value to the world, assuming they strive to better their life and the lives of others.

The other two questions, the second is answered by the first, the third is irrelevant

 

[ratiocinator]

They are very relevant, but your response is showing you have not deeply thought about this issue.

No reasoning, then? In what way can they be relevant, if they are asking us to assume the premiss we are questioning?

 

[Link]

No reasoning, then? In what way can they be relevant, if they are asking us to assume the premiss we are questioning?

It's not asking you to do so, so think about them again.

 

[Nakosis]

The argument is this and simple:

Humans have objective value.
Humans would not have objective value without God.

Another way to phrase this:

The value of humans is not illusionary but an objective reality.
Without God, there is no objective reality to the value of human beings.

This simple argument would prove God.

I've for years agued for both premises. I will not do so in this thread, but in another one, but just want to see people thoughts on each.

The following I hope will be responded in posts if people deny the 2nd premise:

(1) If God doesn't exist, what is a human's value?
(2) What is the measurement and criteria of the human's value if God doesn't exist?
(3) How did evolution bring us to value objectively and not in illusionary magical made up way?

I believe God's light and value himself is the basis of all value, he lives with all things in this sense and is immersed with them.

If you deny or doubt the first premise, here are some questions:

(1) Why do believe in value and love human beings and appreciate states of being in form of good actions and will of humans?
(2) How do you know humans don't objective value?
(3) If we do have objective value, should we doubt it?
(4) If we do perceive objective value, why should we doubt anything about it including if it's God's light?

I don't think humans can know whether they have objective value. IOW it would be beyond what humans are capable of knowing.

So you can believe they have objective value but not know this for sure.
Or you can believe they do not and still not know this for sure.

I suppose I would agree for some concepts of God, you would also have to also believe humans have an objective value.

For me, I accept I do not know whether humans have an objective value. I tend to believe not but belief is not knowledge.
The reason for this is no objective evidence to the contrary. Doesn't mean such evidence doesn't exit. Just mean I am not aware of any and that is what I base my belief on.

So

1. Humans are driven by feelings. Love, happiness even goodness are feelings. Value is something we may arbitrarily attach to those feelings but it would but subjective value.
2. As I said I don't know. I just don't have a reason to believe they do.
3. If we have an objective value, we wouldn't know about it. So there is no reason to believe we do until something shows us otherwise.
4. If we could perceive objective value, then it wouldn't be a question. Until then, no reason to believe we can.

 

[Link]

Here I am going to help you out: "existentialism":

Existentialism: Crash Course Philosophy #16 - YouTube

If you have any answer, it lies in that.

 

[ratiocinator]

It's not asking you to do so, so think about them again.

Why should I. It's your argument, you should be explaining it. I have no confidence in your ability to reason (based on past posts) so I think it's perfectly possible that you're just imagining that you've said something deeper than you actually have.

For example:

(3) If we do have objective value, should we doubt it?

I don't think we have objective value, so why should I engage with anything after the if-statement? It's like asking me "if 2+2=5,..."; why would I care what follows? Even if I play the game, we get a 'should', 'should' according to whom?

 

[Link]

If you believe you don't have it you should prove how and why you know this. If you doubt it, you should reflect if your doubt is sincere due it not being a reality or not. This all I am asking. Because if we deceive ourselves, then there is no cure.

 

[Link]

Watch the clip I linked to about existentialism. And it doesn't deny God is required for objective value, it acknowledges this as true. Most Atheist philosophers I think are existentialists.

But I think we can't give meaning/value, we can only recognize meaning/value and earn meaning/value. I will elaborate why in another thread.