Vagueness of a spiritual experience

[Nessa]

When somebody experiences a spiritual experience, how can they be certain it's their god ? You may believe in Jesus, it might sound like Jesus, and it might feel like Jesus but why couldn't it be any other of the gods or beliefs scattered in the past and present world.

And to a lessor degree, how does it validate their belief structure? I'll use Christianity in my example because it's the belief system I'm more familiar with. There are somewhere between 12,000 to 35,000 branches of Christianity in the world depending on which source you use. And it's fairly common for varying branches of Christianity to condemn each other.

But more to the point, how can we be certain it's even a god ? Emotions and feelings are the result of chemical and physical responses to your environment. It's very easy to lie to yourself and it's easier if you have a preconceived notion. Any feeling or emotion that can be felt in a spiritual or religious experience can also be felt watching a movie or in a close personal relationship.


Principle 1: Understanding your feelings

Every thought that goes through your mind, whether conscious or unconscious, sends an important message to the body, which triggers a wave of internal motion (increased heart rate, blood pressure, body temperature, and muscle intensity). These internal, physical/chemical MOTIONS within the body are commonly felt and referred to as "eMOTIONS." Emotions are like a stream that is constantly flowing in each of us twenty-four hours a day. Sometimes the motion or flow is calm and tranquil; other times it is rapid and turbulent. Regardless of the nature of your stream of emotion at any given time, you--not the stream itself--make the decisions of what to think and how to act. Although it may not always seem like it, your behavior is controlled by the decisions you make, not by how you are feeling

 

[sandandfoam]

When somebody experiences a spiritual experience, how can they be certain it's their god ? You may believe in Jesus, it might sound like Jesus, and it might feel like Jesus but why couldn't it be any other of the gods or belief's scattered in the past and present world.

And to a lessor degree, how does it validate their belief structure? I'll use Christianity in my example because it's the belief system I'm more familiar with. There are somewhere between 12,000 to 35,000 branches of Christianity in the world depending on which source you use. And it's fairly common for varying branches of Christianity to condemn each other.

But more to the point, how can we be certain it's even a god ? Emotions and feelings are the result of chemical and physical responses to your environment. It's very easy to lie to yourself and it's easier if you have a preconceived notion. Any feeling or emotion that can be felt in a spiritual or religious experience can also be felt watching a movie or in a close personal relationship.


Principle 1: Understanding your feelings

I don't need certainty, my myths are just a way of dealing with a reality too wondrous for my brain.
Science and religion are not accessories to my reasoning, rather they facilitate my reasoning.
My understanding is incomplete - hence nothing is certain and indeed cannot be. Without understanding, for me, certainty is impossible.

 

[sojourner]

When somebody experiences a spiritual experience, how can they be certain it's their god ? You may believe in Jesus, it might sound like Jesus, and it might feel like Jesus but why couldn't it be any other of the gods or beliefs scattered in the past and present world.

And to a lessor degree, how does it validate their belief structure? I'll use Christianity in my example because it's the belief system I'm more familiar with. There are somewhere between 12,000 to 35,000 branches of Christianity in the world depending on which source you use. And it's fairly common for varying branches of Christianity to condemn each other.

But more to the point, how can we be certain it's even a god ? Emotions and feelings are the result of chemical and physical responses to your environment. It's very easy to lie to yourself and it's easier if you have a preconceived notion. Any feeling or emotion that can be felt in a spiritual or religious experience can also be felt watching a movie or in a close personal relationship.


Principle 1: Understanding your feelings

You're trying to force an absolute upon something that depends for every person. What I experience as "God," someone else may experience as "Shiva." Or "The Great Pink Unicorn." But what matters most is that there is a similarity in how we conceive Divinity, as compared with humanity.

 

[Autodidact]

I've often had posters here at RF tell me that I can't doubt their religious experience, but never had one describe to me what it is. What do they even mean? What was this experience? As far as I've gotten out of anyone, it's a "sense of peace." That's it. How the heck to you get from a sense of peace to a patriarchal God having a baby boy just so he could be executed?

 

[Willamena]

How the heck to you get from a sense of peace to a patriarchal God having a baby boy just so he could be executed?

From here:

The result of clinging to the illusion of certainty in the face of uncomfortable questions is that the concrete language we use to divide up and organize the world makes it increasingly more difficult to perceive our individual self and others as anything other than the labels we craft to organize the world of our experiences and our relationship to it. We cease to see ourselves reflected in those we perceive as different from us, and in so doing erect the very wall that makes it impossible to communicate with those others. When we have the courage to tear down those walls and learn to listen and understand, we soon hear that people who seemed different are singing the same songs we are, just in another language. And like us, they too are building walls of concrete symbols to protect their certainty.

It is a vicious circle. Huddling within our walled gardens, reinforced by institutional groupthink, each day assuring us that the answers we've settled on are the "right" ones, we subtly and imperceptibly create the violence and fear that drives production of these concrete walls in the first place. To embrace uncertainty rather than fear it, however, is to be able to move beyond the wall and listen to the songs of "others" for their meaning and find yourself within them. It is the only path to atonement with the Divine. Giving up one's self in non-violence to assuage the fears of others is indeed, the Truth, the Life and Way.

 

[Alex_G]

Im sceptical with spiritual experiences, something that is augmented by the vaugeness of them. I dont doubt the person had an experience, but i do doubt its somewhat superhuman connections.

 

[rocketman]

I've often had posters here at RF tell me that I can't doubt their religious experience, but never had one describe to me what it is. What do they even mean? What was this experience? As far as I've gotten out of anyone, it's a "sense of peace." That's it.

I'm not sure it's actually a valid line of questioning. This all reminds me of that moment in Star Trek IV after Spock has returned from the dead and the good Doctor MCoy asked him if he would discuss his experience, to which Spock replies that it would be impossible to do so without a common frame of reference. Logical.

How the heck to you get from a sense of peace to a patriarchal God having a baby boy just so he could be executed?

This is more your interpretation than anything. How the do you get a patriarchal God from one who created the sexes equally? Probably from misreading his dealings and allowances toward a patriarchal tribe I'd say. And the son was him apparantly, so moot point.

 

[Mister Emu]

I've often had posters here at RF tell me that I can't doubt their religious experience, but never had one describe to me what it is.

Well mine have involved auditory phenomenon...

What do they even mean? What was this experience? As far as I've gotten out of anyone, it's a "sense of peace." That's it. How the heck to you get from a sense of peace to a patriarchal God having a baby boy just so he could be executed?

I get the feeling of another presence, and I can fell the love emenating from this presence, and it gives me the greatest sense of peace I've ever felt.

Maybe I'm crazy, but if so, its a good kind of crazy

 

[Charity]

I've often had posters here at RF tell me that I can't doubt their religious experience, but never had one describe to me what it is. What do they even mean? What was this experience? As far as I've gotten out of anyone, it's a "sense of peace." That's it. How the heck to you get from a sense of peace to a patriarchal God having a baby boy just so he could be executed?

Auto, I could describe several different experiences that I personally have been blessed to have.....I don't feel like I was given these just to have them cast down and trampled by someone who is not a believer, because these would give hope and encouragement especially to another believer....I believe that God allowed me to have these experiences, and I don't care to tell anyone who may benefit by them....I recited one experience on a thread not too long ago....I wouldn't describe my experiences as "a sense of peace" but of "wonder and awe" perhaps they gave me peace but that feeling came later....
The baby boy wasn't executed when he was a child, but as a man who freely gave His life for all.....

 

[Autodidact]

I'm not sure it's actually a valid line of questioning. This all reminds me of that moment in Star Trek IV after Spock has returned from the dead and the good Doctor MCoy asked him if he would discuss his experience, to which Spock replies that it would be impossible to do so without a common frame of reference. Logical.

A: There is no good evidence in favor of your religious belief.
B: Yes, there is, there is my own religious experience, which you can't deny.
A: Oh, O.K. What is it?
B:...Can't describe it.
A: Huh?

This is more your interpretation than anything. How the do you get a patriarchal God from one who created the sexes equally? Probably from misreading his dealings and allowances toward a patriarchal tribe I'd say. And the son was him apparantly, so moot point.

No, the interpretation of the person who claims that his personal religious experience is evidence for this belief.

 

[rocketman]

A: There is no good evidence in favor of your religious belief.
B: Yes, there is, there is my own religious experience, which you can't deny.
A: Oh, O.K. What is it?
B:...Can't describe it.
A: Huh?

Any half decent person person would answer at line 2 with something like: "yes there is, to me anyway, sorry I don't know how to share it with you. "

But I'll grant that there are some who might phrase it the way you have written it there, sadly.

No, the interpretation of the person who claims that his personal religious experience is evidence for this belief.

?