Vaccines aren't mentioned in the Bible!

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Define 'self aware,' Bob.

Well.... there's your problem! You do not understand the term "self aware"....

.... that's interesting. And explains why you think a dog is like a human...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Let's see....what is it that whosits said about magic and technology....

Oh, yeah. The third of Clark's three laws:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Notebook: "indistinguishable from" is NOT repeat NOT the same as "equals"

ooops! Yes-- it may look like magic-- but anyone who has learned that magic is NOT a valid explanation?

Knows it is simply very complex technology-- which could be understood, if they were interested in learning about it.

It is absolutely clear you 100% misunderstood Clarke's saying. Don't feel bad-- lots of people miss-quoted Clarke---

By the way? Clarke wasn't a theist either-- therefore? He did not believe in magic.

Wouldn't a Creator God be the ultimate Master of 'advanced technology,' given that He, supposedly, created the laws technology uses?

I don't know-- I don't pretend to define "god", in direct contrast to ... every theist, ever...

I have to admit that every time we humans figure out how something works, I am tickled....and I have a suspicion that god is, too. At least, if my beliefs about Him are correct, He is.

See? you define your god-- you put it into tiny boxes. Inept, can't create proper humans boxes. ...

That does NOT, however, mean that we understand and can judge His motives and actions from our present perspectives any more than I could judge those of my parents when I was six.

Oh, but we MOST CERTAINLY CAN JUDGE HIS MOTIVES!

Once you rise to the ability to recognize "self" is different and distinct from "other"?

YOU MOST CERTAINLY CAN JUDGE THIS "GOD" OF YOURS.

And? It does not measure up-- it is EVIL. Or at a bare minimum? IT HAS VERY EVIL QUALITIES.

And you darn betcha we can judge those qualities as being LESS MORAL that us mere humans.

A god must exceed mere mortal standards of morality. Yours does not.

 

[dianaiad]

Well.... there's your problem! You do not understand the term "self aware"....

.... that's interesting. And explains why you think a dog is like a human...

...and that's a deflection from the question. I asked you to define the term. Are you not willing to enlighten me?

 

[dianaiad]

Notebook: "indistinguishable from" is NOT repeat NOT the same as "equals"

ooops! Yes-- it may look like magic-- but anyone who has learned that magic is NOT a valid explanation?

Knows it is simply very complex technology-- which could be understood, if they were interested in learning about it.

It is absolutely clear you 100% misunderstood Clarke's saying. Don't feel bad-- lots of people miss-quoted Clarke---

By the way? Clarke wasn't a theist either-- therefore? He did not believe in magic.

(whisper this in case someone overhears...) Neither do I.

I don't know-- I don't pretend to define "god", in direct contrast to ... every theist, ever...

That's lazy.

See? you define your god-- you put it into tiny boxes. Inept, can't create proper humans boxes. ...

uhmn....what?

Oh, but we MOST CERTAINLY CAN JUDGE HIS MOTIVES!

Not if we don't know them, we can't.

Once you rise to the ability to recognize "self" is different and distinct from "other"?

Is that your definition of 'self-aware?" In that case, my dog is most certainly self aware. Indeed, I would estimate that most living critters on the planet...that aren't plants and don't work completely on programmed instinct, are. All one has to do to illustrate THAT is to look at any 'mating ritual' of any animal who has one.

YOU MOST CERTAINLY CAN JUDGE THIS "GOD" OF YOURS.

Oh, we CAN judge; many of us do. That doesn't make the judgment logical, or useful.

And? It does not measure up-- it is EVIL. Or at a bare minimum? IT HAS VERY EVIL QUALITIES.

And you darn betcha we can judge those qualities as being LESS MORAL that us mere humans.

A god must exceed mere mortal standards of morality. Yours does not.

Actually, you have no clue whether my version of God 'exceeds mere mortal standards of morality' or not. I think He does, and I know as much about 'human morality' (actually, humans are the nastiest creatures on the planet and capable of far more cruelty than almost any other....and I say 'almost' because I always like to leave room 'at the top' for something to be worse.

Again, I refer you to my polio vaccine example. At the age of six, I had MY idea of what 'moral' was, and it did NOT include having my parents make me sit still while people in white coats HURT me.

Tell me; which one of us...me or my parents...was more moral?
What about my cousin, whose parents caved in to HER idea of what 'moral' was....and as a result contracted polio when I did not? Which of THEM was more 'moral,' the child, or the parents whose actions in 'sparing' her the vaccinations, resulted in her year long battle with polio, and her life-long battle with post-polio syndrome?

I'll give you another example...a bit more to the point. I have a nephew who, at age three, was acting 'strange.' My sister had a really good friend who was a diabetic, and just for--I dunno, a hunch--she took out her kit and did a quick blood test. She saw the boy and recognized many of the symptoms, so.....and his sugar level was 350. That's not a good thing in a three year old. Well, my sister hauled him to the doc, who sent her, that afternoon, to the Children's Hospital in Los Angeles. It seems that he had contracted the flu or something the previous month, and it knocked out his ability to produce insulin; type 1 diabetes. BECAUSE his mother made him go down there, and BECAUSE she rode heard on him throughout his childhood and made him do things he purely hated (like three times daily blood tests...the boy is a VERY 'brittle' diabetic) he grew up strong, healthy and athletic. He went to college, got advanced degrees and works as a statistician. His diabetes is still very hard to control, but because his mother was mean to him as a child, he can and does control it.

Now...I also know parents who are 'nicer' to their diabetic children, and don't do the blood tests as often, allow an occasional treat (or more than occasional) and give in to their kid's idea of 'moral.' And their kids aren't healthy, don't have good habits...or are dead.

Would YOU give the judgment of my sister's morals over to her eight year old son, after four blood tests and three shots of insulin?


Dunno about you, but I know which group I think was more 'moral,' no matter what the six year olds thought.

I'm also willing to believe that, just perhaps, God MIGHT know more about morality and what's 'good for us' than we do.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

(whisper this in case someone overhears...) Neither do I.





That's lazy.





uhmn....what?





Not if we don't know them, we can't.



Is that your definition of 'self-aware?" In that case, my dog is most certainly self aware. Indeed, I would estimate that most living critters on the planet...that aren't plants and don't work completely on programmed instinct, are. All one has to do to illustrate THAT is to look at any 'mating ritual' of any animal who has one.




Oh, we CAN judge; many of us do. That doesn't make the judgment logical, or useful.



Actually, you have no clue whether my version of God 'exceeds mere mortal standards of morality' or not. I think He does, and I know as much about 'human morality' (actually, humans are the nastiest creatures on the planet and capable of far more cruelty than almost any other....and I say 'almost' because I always like to leave room 'at the top' for something to be worse.

Again, I refer you to my polio vaccine example. At the age of six, I had MY idea of what 'moral' was, and it did NOT include having my parents make me sit still while people in white coats HURT me.

Tell me; which one of us...me or my parents...was more moral?
What about my cousin, whose parents caved in to HER idea of what 'moral' was....and as a result contracted polio when I did not? Which of THEM was more 'moral,' the child, or the parents whose actions in 'sparing' her the vaccinations, resulted in her year long battle with polio, and her life-long battle with post-polio syndrome?

I'll give you another example...a bit more to the point. I have a nephew who, at age three, was acting 'strange.' My sister had a really good friend who was a diabetic, and just for--I dunno, a hunch--she took out her kit and did a quick blood test. She saw the boy and recognized many of the symptoms, so.....and his sugar level was 350. That's not a good thing in a three year old. Well, my sister hauled him to the doc, who sent her, that afternoon, to the Children's Hospital in Los Angeles. It seems that he had contracted the flu or something the previous month, and it knocked out his ability to produce insulin; type 1 diabetes. BECAUSE his mother made him go down there, and BECAUSE she rode heard on him throughout his childhood and made him do things he purely hated (like three times daily blood tests...the boy is a VERY 'brittle' diabetic) he grew up strong, healthy and athletic. He went to college, got advanced degrees and works as a statistician. His diabetes is still very hard to control, but because his mother was mean to him as a child, he can and does control it.

Now...I also know parents who are 'nicer' to their diabetic children, and don't do the blood tests as often, allow an occasional treat (or more than occasional) and give in to their kid's idea of 'moral.' And their kids aren't healthy, don't have good habits...or are dead.

Would YOU give the judgment of my sister's morals over to her eight year old son, after four blood tests and three shots of insulin?


Dunno about you, but I know which group I think was more 'moral,' no matter what the six year olds thought.

I'm also willing to believe that, just perhaps, God MIGHT know more about morality and what's 'good for us' than we do.

Nope. I judge your god based on the proven activities--

-- or, rather, the 100% certain proven NO activities.

And your god? Is either mostly Evil, or Pure Evil. Because it neglected it's responsibility.

All of your ramblings (above) do not remove your problem: your god created evil.

Your god's 100% failure to ACT, continues to enable evil.

That makes your god? Evil in part or in Total.

Ooops!

PS. Yes. Your god *is* self aware to a degree, but it cannot abstract into the past or future.

Sheesh, it's as if theists turn off their brains completely when speaking about god-stuff...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

(whisper this in case someone overhears...) Neither do I.

100% false statement by you-- you believe in god(s). Magical, Wish-Granting god(s).

That IS the very definition of magic.

ooops!

And, naturally, by "wish" I mean "prayers" which are the same thing.

 

[dianaiad]

Nope. I judge your god based on the proven activities--

-- or, rather, the 100% certain proven NO activities.

And your god? Is either mostly Evil, or Pure Evil. Because it neglected it's responsibility.

All of your ramblings (above) do not remove your problem: your god created evil.

Your god's 100% failure to ACT, continues to enable evil.

That makes your god? Evil in part or in Total.

Ooops!

PS. Yes. Your god *is* self aware to a degree, but it cannot abstract into the past or future.

Sheesh, it's as if theists turn off their brains completely when speaking about god-stuff...

Uh, Bob?

Are you attributing Orthodox Christian...or even traditional Protestant Christian...beliefs in God to me?

Don't do that.

 

[dianaiad]

100% false statement by you-- you believe in god(s). Magical, Wish-Granting god(s).

That IS the very definition of magic.

ooops!

And, naturally, by "wish" I mean "prayers" which are the same thing.

Not even close. I repeat: don't assume that you know what my beliefs are. It's a waste of your time and mine. I feel absolutely no need to defend beliefs I don't hold.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Uh, Bob?

Are you attributing Orthodox Christian...or even traditional Protestant Christian...beliefs in God to me?

Don't do that.

Why? You list your god as "Mormon". Same god as those you mention, actually.

Unless.... you think your god deliberately and with malice, refused to show himself until the 1800's? And deliberately and with malice, permitted the other branches of "christian" to not only exist, but to thrive all over the world?

ooookaaaay...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Not even close. I repeat: don't assume that you know what my beliefs are. It's a waste of your time and mine. I feel absolutely no need to defend beliefs I don't hold.

I can tell what your beliefs are, by the way you react, and by your comments. As for defending them? Why would you feel the need to be defensive?

If your beliefs cannot withstand constructive criticism, well.... how deep can they be, really?

Ghandi once observed that someone who's faith is sure, finds no threat or negativity in criticism of said faith, neither do they feel the need to defend them.

 

[dianaiad]

Why? You list your god as "Mormon". Same god as those you mention, actually.

Unless.... you think your god deliberately and with malice, refused to show himself until the 1800's? And deliberately and with malice, permitted the other branches of "christian" to not only exist, but to thrive all over the world?

ooookaaaay...

Hey. if the Abrahamic God is 'true,' then the OT is full of very long time periods where God left His kids to their own devices. A two thousand year gap isn't exactly unknown.

Ah, well....but yes, I am a Mormon, and the Mormon idea of Who God is doesn't march with what you think the Christian God is.

Come to think of it, I don't believe that the Christian idea of God is precisely what you think the Christian God is. Ah, well.

 

[dianaiad]

I can tell what your beliefs are, by the way you react, and by your comments. As for defending them? Why would you feel the need to be defensive?

If your beliefs cannot withstand constructive criticism, well.... how deep can they be, really?

Ghandi once observed that someone who's faith is sure, finds no threat or negativity in criticism of said faith, neither do they feel the need to defend them.

With all due respect, Bob, you haven't shown me that you understand what my beliefs are yet.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Hey. if the Abrahamic God is 'true,' then the OT is full of very long time periods where God left His kids to their own devices. A two thousand year gap isn't exactly unknown.

Ah, well....but yes, I am a Mormon, and the Mormon idea of Who God is doesn't march with what you think the Christian God is.

Come to think of it, I don't believe that the Christian idea of God is precisely what you think the Christian God is. Ah, well.

What do you think I think it is, then? Since, it's obvious you know more about what I think that - do...

I for one, would love to read what "I think". It ought to be amusing, if nothing else...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

With all due respect, Bob, you haven't shown me that you understand what my beliefs are yet.

I probably don't-- apart from the fact that you have failed to address obvious criticisms of your belief-- as you have presented it herein.

Face it-- no god-claim can withstand critical analysis--which is why theists get so defensive and start Ad Homs against the person asking the questions.

Example: The last few replies to me, from you...

 

[dianaiad]

What do you think I think it is, then? Since, it's obvious you know more about what I think that - do...

I for one, would love to read what "I think". It ought to be amusing, if nothing else...

Shoe's on the other foot, Bob. It is you who are telling me what my beliefs 'really are.' I can only figure out what you think by what you write....and what you write about your assumptions regarding my beliefs are dead wrong.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Shoe's on the other foot, Bob. It is you who are telling me what my beliefs 'really are.' I can only figure out what you think by what you write....and what you write about your assumptions regarding my beliefs are dead wrong.

All I can go by, is what you write, here-- and the consequences of what you write.

It's not my fault that what you write does not stand up to critical examination.

Sorry about that, Chief.

 

[dianaiad]

All I can go by, is what you write, here-- and the consequences of what you write.

It's not my fault that what you write does not stand up to critical examination.

Sorry about that, Chief.

OK, exactly what HAVE I written that tells you what my beliefs are? Please include quotes and links.

Because quite frankly?

Your description of what my beliefs are, and my impression of what my beliefs are, don't match very well.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Your description of what my beliefs are, and my impression of what my beliefs are, don't match very well.

Indeed. I have yet to see a theist who's beliefs are internally consistent. But what can you do? Faith is like that, is it not?

 

[dianaiad]

Indeed. I have yet to see a theist who's beliefs are internally consistent. But what can you do? Faith is like that, is it not?

My faith is internally consistent. I don't have any problems with it.

It is merely inconsistent with what you claim it is.

.............and that's not my problem.