Vaccines aren't mentioned in the Bible!

[Mindmaster]

Of course the major worry for many with vaccines is autism, and this video is an impressive expose on that problem considering the source:

Also, I think it's important to know old vaccines are not new ones. We're not making an apples to apples comparison here. I still would be thoroughly knowledgeable on any medical products that enter your own body or those of children. There is a risk versus reward consideration with everything. I take Metformin every day - it's glucose regulating and anti-cancer properties are amazing, but it can cause problems like lactic acidosis and aggravate and kidney problems. You have to monitor this and know what the signs are - it's life threatening and stomach / intestinal issues can be terrible.

I sometimes have the stomach issues, but I tough it out just because it makes my life easier. It's nothing that a few chugs of pepto hasn't helped so far, but it's always important to read all the information that comes with medications. Vaccines too come with these data sheets, you should read through them before taking _anything_ and if some of the possible side effects lead to permanent problems so intelligently weigh that decision. Uncontrolled diabetes also weakens your immune system, so if you take vaccines you may actually make yourself sick as all hell. It's important to know your situation and have full blood work before doing those types of things. I find it mostly strange that no one tests blood before giving such things and feel that it's critically important to have that data in front of you. Even if the patient is a child, etc.

I'm not anti-vax as much as I am anti-running around blind on the issue, and people rarely have the fore-mentioned blood test before taking these things. The standard procedure is just getting the shot and toughing it out - that's nonsensical to me.

 

[Shaul]

"Potato salad" isn't mentioned in the Bible either, but it shows up at every church pot luck.

Even worse, some church pot lucks have deviled eggs! Shocking, I know.

 

[stvdv]

Free will has zip-all to do with a failure to prevent Evil.

Are you saying that the "god" in question is incapable of building a Universe without evil in it?

If so-- why such an inept an incapable deity?

So much for "all good" or even "all powerful"-- clearly it is not all good, because it included evil, and it is far from all powerful because it was unable to prevent evil.

Oh well.
As for point 2? That makes this god out to be ... dimwitted or stupid... an even bigger "oops"...

= = =
I just offered my 2 points to you, because I thought they make a nice addition. That's all.
I get the feeling you got quite triggered, seeing the belittling and offensive reply you give
I won't make that mistake again
Be Happy, oh just see now that it's your birthday. So, happy birthday to you

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Even worse, some church pot lucks have deviled eggs! Shocking, I know.

Those were always the best! In the many-many pot-lucks I had to endure? I loved the deviled eggs and other salad items, because all the main dishes were supposed to be eaten ... hot.

But. In my cult, the preacher never gave less than 15 minutes prayer before eating-- no, I'm not kidding or stretching. It may have been longer, but a minimum of 15 minutes.

During which the food cooled to room temperature.

Of course... looking at the majority of the adults in attendance? Well, let's just say that "gluttony" wasn't considered very sinful-- if at all.

That's the way of Evangelical Christianity, though-- all glitter and paint. Nothing of substance.

 

[stvdv]

How do you know that you were "cured" by this man? The body can and does naturally recover from Hep A most of the time within a few weeks. He may have merely made the symptoms more bearable until you recovered on your own:
"Most people who get hepatitis A feel sick for several weeks, but they usually recover completely and do not have lasting liver damage. In rare cases, hepatitis A can cause liver failure and death; this is more common in people older than 50 and in people with other liver diseases."

Hepatitis A Questions and Answers for the Public | Division of Viral Hepatitis | CDC

@Subduction Zone: Some things you know. A woman knows when she is pregnant. I just know. I won't get a fat belly, so can't proof it that way.

But my intention of this reply was not to proof anything, that's why I started with "@For MindMaster ONLY:". MindMaster asked me a question "why 3 times". So that's why I gave this answer; he asked, so this was personally meant for him.

I see no point in proving this kind of stuff to anyone. I know I am right. That's enough for me.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

= = =
I just offered my 2 points to you, because I thought they make a nice addition. That's all.
I get the feeling you got quite triggered, seeing the belittling and offensive reply you give
I won't make that mistake again
Be Happy, oh just see now that it's your birthday. So, happy birthday to you

So sorry if you felt I was "triggered". But in my defense of my sarcastic reply?

Free will is a null-argument, if examined objectively. I've literally heard it used as a Bully-Bat to beat people up, when bad things happen, but these same people insist that "god" is All Good.

It's something of a pet peeve with me-- the logic simply does not work, no matter how you try and twist things around: Free Will cannot excuse a god who allows god-preventable evil to exist.

 

[Subduction Zone]

@Subduction Zone: Some things you know. A woman knows when she is pregnant. I just know. I won't get a fat belly, so can't proof it that way.

But my intention of this reply was not to proof anything, that's why I started with "@For MindMaster ONLY:". MindMaster asked me a question "why 3 times". So that's why I gave this answer; he asked, so this was personally meant for him.

I see no point in proving this kind of stuff to anyone. I know I am right. That's enough for me.

People that "know" that they are right are wrong an amazing amount of the time. As the saying goes, if you can't show it you don't know it.

The point is that people recover from Hep A on their own quite often. I supported that claim. Odds are that you were simply taken in by a charlatan.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Also, I think it's important to know old vaccines are not new ones. We're not making an apples to apples comparison here. I still would be thoroughly knowledgeable on any medical products that enter your own body or those of children. There is a risk versus reward consideration with everything. I take Metformin every day - it's glucose regulating and anti-cancer properties are amazing, but it can cause problems like lactic acidosis and aggravate and kidney problems. You have to monitor this and know what the signs are - it's life threatening and stomach / intestinal issues can be terrible.

I sometimes have the stomach issues, but I tough it out just because it makes my life easier. It's nothing that a few chugs of pepto hasn't helped so far, but it's always important to read all the information that comes with medications. Vaccines too come with these data sheets, you should read through them before taking _anything_ and if some of the possible side effects lead to permanent problems so intelligently weigh that decision. Uncontrolled diabetes also weakens your immune system, so if you take vaccines you may actually make yourself sick as all hell. It's important to know your situation and have full blood work before doing those types of things. I find it mostly strange that no one tests blood before giving such things and feel that it's critically important to have that data in front of you. Even if the patient is a child, etc.

I'm not anti-vax as much as I am anti-running around blind on the issue, and people rarely have the fore-mentioned blood test before taking these things. The standard procedure is just getting the shot and toughing it out - that's nonsensical to me.

That is fine, but for vaccines the odds of a negative side effect are always far outweighed by the possibility of an infection. Serious side effects are always "one in a million" meaning that they can't be ruled out, but they happen so rarely that they cannot be separated from the background noise in every day events. That is why in medicine especially one has the saying "correlation is not causation". "I ate a dead horse and got sick is not proof that eating a dead horse will make you sick. What one needs to determine if the dead horse was at fault is to do at least a statistical study of eating dead horses. We probably have all picked up a bout of food poisoning here and there throughout our lives. One may have a strong suspicion of what caused it, but that alone is not proof. But when I went out with two friends of mine to a Thai restaurant and we all had a bad bout of food poisoning the next day that is fairly strong statistical evidence that the restaurant was to blame. On the opposite end a relative that shares all sorts of unsupported beliefs on facebook shared the story of a girl that got deathly ill sometime after being injected with Gardasil. That was not evidence that Gardasil was dangerous. It was one story out of millions that have had the injection. The odds are that in a similar group of people that were not injected the same number of people had a similar death.

Making vaccines better and safer is always a good goal, but over reaction about mercury, when one eats a tuna fish sandwich every other week, is laughable. Relying on obscure stories supports nothing. One needs proper studies where testers do the best that they can to eliminate human prejudice.

 

[Mindmaster]

Making vaccines better and safer is always a good goal, but over reaction about mercury, when one eats a tuna fish sandwich every other week, is laughable. Relying on obscure stories supports nothing. One needs proper studies where testers do the best that they can to eliminate human prejudice.

I'm just in the no-mercury camp. I don't eat the things that contain it if I can help it, and I certainly wouldn't take any organic compound with it in it as the body has a wonderful tendency to convert these into the problem chemicals somehow. By the time science figures that out, they've been handing it out for 50 years, or so it seems. I also filter my water against these type of things as well, so at least I am consistent.

As far as 1% or whatever it's irrelevant, in the cases where there is a reaction it's naaasty. 1% of the US population is over a few million people easy, so that's a lot of folks. Certainly something to worry about and be cautious over. Hell, you never know if that 1% will be you. Anyway, the point is we all have to come to our own decisions on these things. There is simply no way to understand the value proposition outside of our personal needs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm just in the no-mercury camp. I don't eat the things that contain it if I can help it, and I certainly wouldn't take any organic compound with it in it as the body has a wonderful tendency to convert these into the problem chemicals somehow. By the time science figures that out, they've been handing it out for 50 years, or so it seems. I also filter my water against these type of things as well, so at least I am consistent.

As far as 1% or whatever it's irrelevant, in the cases where there is a reaction it's naaasty. 1% of the US population is over a few million people easy, so that's a lot of folks. Certainly something to worry about and be cautious over. Hell, you never know if that 1% will be you. Anyway, the point is we all have to come to our own decisions on these things. There is simply no way to understand the value proposition outside of our personal needs.

So you pretty much avoid all seafood then. And you did not understand the one out of a million example. There is no way to know if the vaccines are the cause of that or not.

Go ahead and make your own decisions, but you should realize that your decisions do not appear to be rational. They are based upon fear and misunderstanding of the evidence.

For example, are you afraid of various medical procedures such as x-rays? If that is the case you should be even more afraid of flying.

 

[AManCalledHorse]

So you pretty much avoid all seafood then. And you did not understand the one out of a million example. There is no way to know if the vaccines are the cause of that or not.

Go ahead and make your own decisions, but you should realize that your decisions do not appear to be rational. They are based upon fear and misunderstanding of the evidence.

For example, are you afraid of various medical procedures such as x-rays? If that is the case you should be even more afraid of flying.

You would be exposed to about 0.035 mSv (3.5 mrem) of cosmic radiation if you were to fly within the United States from the east coast to the west coast. This amount of radiation is less than the amount of radiation we receive from one chest x-ray.

Radiation from Air Travel

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

People that "know" that they are right are wrong an amazing amount of the time. As the saying goes, if you can't show it you don't know it.

The point is that people recover from Hep A on their own quite often. I supported that claim. Odds are that you were simply taken in by a charlatan.

I assume he's referring to this Sai Baba: Sathya Sai Baba - Wikipedia

Definitely a charlatan and probably also a criminal who sexually abused people. IIRC, he even got the prediction of his own death wrong. Oops! So much for an avatar of God! Sadly, such frauds and cranks aren't uncommon in India. Poverty, desperation and lack of education make them a dime a dozen. Interestingly, America has its own phenomenon of Christian cranks fleecing the gullible sheep, too! How unfortunate!

 

[Subduction Zone]

You would be exposed to about 0.035 mSv (3.5 mrem) of cosmic radiation if you were to fly within the United States from the east coast to the west coast. This amount of radiation is less than the amount of radiation we receive from one chest x-ray.

Radiation from Air Travel

Correct, it would take about three such trips to equal one chest x-ray. But one such trip is roughly two dental x-rays. Different procedures take different amounts of radiation:

NRC: Doses in Our Daily Lives

My sister probably gets at least the amount of a chest x-ray every other week. A pilot would get even more.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I assume he's referring to this Sai Baba: Sathya Sai Baba - Wikipedia

Definitely a charlatan and probably also a criminal who sexually abused people. IIRC, he even got the prediction of his own death wrong. Oops! So much for an avatar of God! Sadly, such frauds and cranks aren't uncommon in India. Poverty, desperation and lack of education make them a dime a dozen. Interestingly, America has its own phenomenon of Christian cranks fleecing the gullible sheep, too! How unfortunate!

Probably. I thought that he was a she from this claim:

" A woman knows when she is pregnant. I just know. I won't get a fat belly, so can't proof it that way."

Though the profile page says "male".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Probably. I thought that he was a she from this claim:

" A woman knows when she is pregnant. I just know. I won't get a fat belly, so can't proof it that way."

Though the profile page says "male".

He was trying to make an analogy. A very poor one. There's been cases of women being pregnant and not knowing it until the baby was born.

 

[stvdv]

So sorry if you felt I was "triggered". But in my defense of my sarcastic reply?
Free will is a null-argument, if examined objectively. I've literally heard it used as a Bully-Bat to beat people up, when bad things happen, but these same people insist that "god" is All Good.
It's something of a pet peeve with me-- the logic simply does not work, no matter how you try and twist things around: Free Will cannot excuse a god who allows god-preventable evil to exist.

@bob: Thanks. Your reply feels good. And I totally can see now why you made that reply the way you did. Yesterday I watched youtube wild animals mauling other animals. I got pain in the stomach watching and switched it off. And those are animals, with their instincts. When people in the name of God, who they say is Love, hurt others [with the exception of (self) defending), then they are hypocrites at best (IMHO)

"Pet peeve", nice, I learned a new word. Mine is "injustice (and disrespect) done to someone".

Anyway, I have not yet seen a definition of God (no scientific definition means to me no scientific existence). God as "He" insinuates human [that would only mean trouble; Human is already big trouble; then God would mean gigantic trouble, far from Love]

God for me is:"The whole universe, the power behind the Big Bang, evolution, all that stuff + more". Now that I see that people have such a "human" idea of the word God, I better find another word. Preferably short, 3 letters (BBE maybe, BigBangEnergy). I like efficiency in communication.

I don't like people to tell me what (not) to do. In that way I am happy that we have Free Choice (this is debatable; most act out of emotional imbalance; so how much choice is left). At least it's a nice thought I have Free Choice. But you must agree, that this implies "evil"

Would you be prepared to give up Free Choice for world peace? I don't like to be told what to do! Happy the universe created me with a certain amount of flexibility. I saw a horse standing in the rain for hours today and thought "how lucky I am to be human". Price "evil", is it worth it???

Hypothetical: if God would exist then this "Free Choice" is maybe not the worst plan [I won't sign up for horse in my next life] still hypothetical.

 

[dianaiad]

Free will has zip-all to do with a failure to prevent Evil.

Are you saying that the "god" in question is incapable of building a Universe without evil in it?

I dunno if he is saying that, but....I am. Or at least, if a Creator God leaves anything AT ALL to do its "own thing," in which it is at all possible to take a path different from that which is programmed (and baby sat) into it, then....no.

"Evil,' when it is boiled down, is simply the 'less optimal choice." Any time there is a possibility of making a choice, then evil exists. Suppose your kid has a choice between getting a red balloon or a green one, and he chooses the green one. Why? Perhaps all his reasons are good ones, or at least neutral ones; it looks better with her dress, or she knows her friend wants the red one and your kid wants to make her friend happy. Very good; good is chosen. However, that means choosing the red balloon is 'evil,' being the lesser choice. Not very evil, certainly, and in another circumstance or time, the red balloon would be the better choice. However, whenever there IS a choice, one option will be more optimal than the other, which makes the other...'evil.'

The only way to avoid it is to make sure there is no choice available for anybody or anything.

Which means that the Creator God Who invented such a world put evil into it deliberately and with malice aforethought. Now I wonder: which version of God would be, er....more evil?

If so-- why such an inept an incapable deity?

So much for "all good" or even "all powerful"-- clearly it is not all good, because it included evil, and it is far from all powerful because it was unable to prevent evil.

Well, your version of 'all good' might not be an accurate representation. After all, when I was six my parents made me get polio shots (and very shortly thereafter, the stuff on the sugar cubes). From my perspective, I thought they were evil personified. Certainly they weren't "all good,' because they allowed me to GET HURT. More than allowed, they deliberately made me stand in line for an hour so that someone in a white coat could jab me....and they made me do it THREE TIMES.

No way could you have convinced me that they were 'good' to do this.

I was extremely envious of my cousin, whose parents didn't make HER stand in line; they listened to her tantrums and put it off.

Do I need to tell you the ending of this little story? You know, the obvious one about how she got polio and I didn't? We were inseparable. If she was exposed to polio, so was I...but my parents, those evil, incompetent people, saw to it that I didn't get polio.

but you couldn't tell me at six that this was so, even after my cousin got sick and I didn't.

[/quote]

As for point 2? That makes this god out to be ... dimwitted or stupid... an even bigger "oops"...

Actually, it only makes you...and others who have this same view...about six, relatively, if it doesn't make us all amoebas as compared to Einstein. It's not that I'm defending my view of God, mind you. It's just that if there IS a Creator God, He created the whole, y'know, UNIVERSE? One can pretty much figure that Someone (or Something) that did that knows...and understands...a bit more than we do. As in, on an entirely different level of comprehension, as well as a perspective of time and events that makes us look like mayflies arguing the motives of the fish that will eat them that night.

it also makes us look like hubris personified. I mean, really? ONE planet among billions, in one galaxy among billions..and is this the only universe?

And you are expecting God to adhere to YOUR opinion of how He should run things and still be 'all good?"

As to being 'all powerful,'...well, a being who can't choose NOT to do something isn't exactly all powerful, is he? In fact, a being who MUST do everything you think CAN be done isn't powerful at all.

 

[stvdv]

I dunno if he is saying that, but....I am. Or at least, if a Creator God leaves anything AT ALL to do its "own thing," in which it is at all possible to take a path different from that which is programmed (and baby sat) into it, then....no.

However, whenever there IS a choice, one option will be more optimal than the other, which makes the other...'evil.'

The only way to avoid it is to make sure there is no choice available for anybody or anything.

@dianaiad: Nice points you made. "I dunno if I said this before but..."

If God is defined as omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent and if this defined God exists then sure this God could make a world even 1 "without evil" and even 2"without evil when having Free Choice". Being equipped with those 3 "omni's" gives you some ways to creatively find your way to achieve this. At least I can figure out some creative solutions, not even being that creative myself.

* However, whenever there IS a choice, one option will be more optimal than the other, which makes the other...'evil.'
There are many religions, believe systems. I used to be more judgemental and criticizing then now ["evil" was also bigger in my dictionary at that time]. Now I see them as just different and enjoy them even more and more. I used to prefer apples when young. Bananas were evil [had to do with shape and sick games when I was young]. Now slowly overcoming these I prefer Bananas and apples don't "work for me" [too heavy to digest].

Maybe the problem arises when one needs it for himself to "know the truth", or there "should be only 1 truth" especially when "preferably mine".

This need to evangelize diminishes [I love sharing and learning by the feedback]. All religions and atheism+++ I see here on the forum have some good points and lessons for me. I take the ideas that I need, and leave other ideas for other people who need those. Need to judge and criticize gets less and less.

Finally all comes down to respect IMHO. "No respect" is 1 cause that "evil thoughts" easily arise. Free Choice is not the cause IMHE. Lack of Love and understanding might have more to do with this.

Hypothetical: If God exists and this God made the world exactly as it is to learn the lesson of Love and respect. Then maybe this hypothetical God didn't do such a bad job after all.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I'm just in the no-mercury camp. .

I really hate to let you know? But all water supplies-- bottled or otherwise (the sole exception is distilled) contain minute traces of mercury.

Meaning? All Food Sources do too. No exceptions.

This is because mercury is everywhere. Literally everywhere. If you are typical? And do not eat top-predator fish (i.e. Tuna, Bass, etc) every day?

You contain about as much mercury as an average sample of farm dirt. Maybe a wee bit more, as humans are Top Predators too.

You ain't getting away from this stuff--- it's everywhere on earth, in everything you drink and in every bite you eat.

Don't worry about it: We all evolved to have trace amounts in our bodies.... just like all other mammals, in fact...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

@bob: Thanks. Your reply feels good. And I totally can see now why you made that reply the way you did. Yesterday I watched youtube wild animals mauling other animals. I got pain in the stomach watching and switched it off. And those are animals, with their instincts. When people in the name of God, who they say is Love, hurt others [with the exception of (self) defending), then they are hypocrites at best (IMHO)

"Pet peeve", nice, I learned a new word. Mine is "injustice (and disrespect) done to someone".

Anyway, I have not yet seen a definition of God (no scientific definition means to me no scientific existence). God as "He" insinuates human [that would only mean trouble; Human is already big trouble; then God would mean gigantic trouble, far from Love]

God for me is:"The whole universe, the power behind the Big Bang, evolution, all that stuff + more". Now that I see that people have such a "human" idea of the word God, I better find another word. Preferably short, 3 letters (BBE maybe, BigBangEnergy). I like efficiency in communication.

I don't like people to tell me what (not) to do. In that way I am happy that we have Free Choice (this is debatable; most act out of emotional imbalance; so how much choice is left). At least it's a nice thought I have Free Choice. But you must agree, that this implies "evil"

Would you be prepared to give up Free Choice for world peace? I don't like to be told what to do! Happy the universe created me with a certain amount of flexibility. I saw a horse standing in the rain for hours today and thought "how lucky I am to be human". Price "evil", is it worth it???

Hypothetical: if God would exist then this "Free Choice" is maybe not the worst plan [I won't sign up for horse in my next life] still hypothetical.

Ben Franklin is quoted as saying: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

So, no-- I would not give up Free Will for world peace. Humans are messy things, and so long as Tribalism (be it political, religious, or sports teams) continue to exist? There will be Conflict.

War is just Conflict Writ Large: typically escalated because "Fearless Leaders" can't curb their greed for more power...

I personally would push for a world where anyone who desires to be First Among Leaders? Be prohibited from holding any elected Public Office of any sort.

We need more Reluctant Leaders (like G. Ford was) than we need demagogues who crave power (I'm now thinking of the Zimbabwe leader who is only now finally being deposed after decades of abuse of power, but d tRump also qualifies).