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Utopia, is there such a thing?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Colin_Admin, Mar 19, 2004.

  1. Colin_Admin

    Colin_Admin Member

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  2. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    There have certainly been a lot of attempts to create utopia (from Plato to Marx to Communism to various communes), but thus far none of it has worked.

    Is it possible? Unless humans evolve spiritually, I seriously doubt it. We are incapable of living peacefully together; we thrive on malcontent--it gives flavor to our lives.

    The closest thing to utopia is personal happiness. But this utopia only lasts for a short time, and it is a mental state, not a physical place.
     
  3. Rex

    Rex Founder
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    Well if you think as utopia as a "heaven" then it is obtainable.

    The question is in the pursuit for a utopian society does justice play a role? And can justice be obtained?
     
  4. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    That depends on whether or not one believes in any form of a "Heaven", and if so, how they personally define Heaven.

    I personally don't believe in Heaven as a place so much as a state of being, when your spirit, soul, or simply the energy that allows you to live becomes a part of God. Once you are a part of God, you let go of your human consciousness. Thus, you would not even NEED a utopia. If you were there with a human consciousness...well, then, I suppose is MAY be utopia, or it may be so overwhelming that the mental and emotional stress is almost painful.

    I had to grab my copy of "The Republic of Plato" for this one, because I remembered that, interestingly enough, it opens up with a section about Justice. (Plato was, after all, the guy who "first" conceived of the idea of a utopia).

    "The justice of the society would secure that each member of it should perform his duties and enjoy his rights."

    For the Greeks "justice", most simply, meant something akin to "rightness".

    Francis MacDonald Cornford says of the Greek idea of justice "As a quality residing in each individual, justice would mean that his personal life--or as a Greek would say, his soul--was correspondingly ordered with respect to the rights and duties of each part of his nature."

    Thus, while today we think of justice as a mechanism by which we MAKE something right; the Greeks saw justice more as a way of being "right" or "in order".

    Thus, if everyone in a society reached this state of "rightness", they would automatically form into a utopian society.

    I said above:

    To be able to achieve that state of "rightness", of "justice" that Plato believed every Greek would have to have in order to form a Utopian society, we would need more spiritual growth than we have thus far.

    I think the only people that could form a Utopian society (or rather, COULD have formed one) are people like Gandhi, Buddha, and Jesus. They were spiritually evolved enough that they could reach that state of "justice". However, having that state of justice, they would be unable or unwilling to tell other people "no, you can't join our Utopia", and with the addition of people without "justice" in this society, Utopia would fail.

    So unless we as humanity manage to ALL reach that state of justice (which, I said before, would require us to evolve spiritually first), Utopia is not possible for us.
     
  5. Rex

    Rex Founder
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    Right on point you are. But I think plato would have told you the Utopia cannot be obtained b/c that is the perfect "form" of life and all we can do as humans is make an imperfect form of the perfect forum.

    So having an imperfect utopia would not be a utopia.


    Man does Plato boggle me.
     
  6. deahca2

    deahca2 Member

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    About Ghandi, although the man is one of my heroe's, I often wonder about his thoughts on the "place" of women. No equality for women, no utopia.
     
  7. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    How 'bout a Utopia with no women? Not that it would last very long without the ability to reproduce new, perfect spiritual beings :p
     
  8. Rex

    Rex Founder
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    didn't you watch Jurassic Park. Nature finds a way to reproduce.

    lol
     
  9. ErikaLee

    ErikaLee Member

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    Bah... silly mortal males.

    You'd be crazy without us... you're just too frail in your masculinity to admit it. lol

    No Utopia without Women!

    Hm... I feel a picket line forming with those words right now...........
     
  10. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    *cocks indignant eyebrow* I am no male! I'm a girl. Look at the link, there is a pretty picture of me in my Renaissance Festival garb!
     
  11. ErikaLee

    ErikaLee Member

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    *shakes her head sadly*

    Silly non-listening Females.

    I wasn't talking about you, I was agreeing with you!

    EL
     
  12. Engyo

    Engyo Prince of Dorkness!

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    Isn't utopia a matter of definition? If I define it narrowly enough, then I can claim it is already occurring; if I define it broadly enough, then it becomes impossible.

    The real trick then becomes coming up with a definition of utopia that two or more people can agree upon. If you can actually do that, you might have a chance of creating it as well, at least for those who are in agreement.

    The Buddha would define utopia as a land/place/realm where suffering does not exist. Different Buddhist teachings, lineages and schools address this in different ways.......
     
  13. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    To EL:
    Oh. My bad! :p

    To Engyo:
    Aye, that it is. I chose to define utopia based on Plato's definition, but there are other, more recent definitions (and I'm sure some older defintions under other names).

    To Everyone: Is utopia (however you personally define it) possible in this world? Or can it only be achieved in the next? Or never?
     
  14. deahca2

    deahca2 Member

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    sure, sure, no women until you want supper, or clean clothes or even a bit of erm, loving. lol
    :p
    Deah
     
  15. ErikaLee

    ErikaLee Member

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    Utopia is a completely perfect world, yes?

    I'm not sure if that is completely possible as there will always be things that make you sad, people die, people get hurt, etc. But I do believe you can get as close as humanly possible if your soul is content.

    I even think I have a little slice of Utopia myself. I love my life, my husband and daughter. I get along with my folks, and when my sister bugs me, I hang up the phone. I try not to do things I don't want to do, or deal with people I don't want to deal with.

    That may be as close as we get in this life... and I'm taking it! :)

    EL
     
  16. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    Aye, the modern definition of utopia probably includes the world "perfect" (I could check to be sure, but I'm too lazy). However, I think the Greek belief was more that a utopia was a place where everything was "right", in its place, people did what their duty demands of them, people were happy spiritually and emotionally. I am not sure they really believe that it was a place with NO strife or problems; just a place where the PEOPLE were "right" and didn't let strife get them down...
     
  17. jtb

    jtb Member

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    Hi

    Like all things, "Utopia" is a personal reference to one's inner self! In Christianity you are given (1) blessing which will lead you to your personal "Utopia", but also create an "Utopia" for others and hopefully the whole world.

    1. Be Fruitful..... ( * Personal Utopia * )

    Personally love and honor God -> have a true relationship with the creator!

    2. Multiply....

    Pass your love of God to others -> By your actions shown to others, people will see the goodness that is in you and that goodness will make others want to have what you have!

    3. Heavenly sovereignty on the Earth

    True oneness with each other and with God the creator!


    "Utopia" in Christianity refers to the "Tree of Life". You can find it in the bible (10) times, and all of those refer to successfully reaching your personal "Utopia", which is the only way into heaven!


    Ref: ( the last time it appears in the bible... )

    Revelation 22

    #14

    Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    #15

    For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


    jtb
     
  18. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Member

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    Yes these things haven't worked beause it trys to go against our nature to recieve for ourselves that is why it won't work.

    Don't you find it strange that a country as rich in natural resources as Russia is economically in such a bad way ? Why is that ? Why has it happened ? Well Baal Hasulam predicted that this would happen in his texts long long before communism came to power in Russia. Had Russia's efforts been in order to please The Creator (Loving your neighbour as yourself.) then they certainly would have been more successful and rich than any other country in the world.

    There is going to be a utopia on this earth and neither should there be where there is a lot better is waiting for us. Only when the last generation walks the Earth will we have a situation where this is practiced because it will be in mans interests to do it - to not practice it will cause us harm.

    Check this article out:http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/thelastgeneration.htm
     
  19. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Utopia is the title of a philosophical treatise (1516) by English writer and statesman Sir Thomas More. It contrasts the moral decadence and disunity of contemporary Christian Europe with the tolerance and prosperity of More’s imaginary ideal state of Utopia, which is run on secular, communist principles. More coined the state’s name from the Greek words ou “not” and topos “place,” literally meaning “nonexistent place.”

    utopia (noun): an ideal and perfect place or state, where everyone lives in harmony and everything is for the best

    I don't believe a Utopia is possible because of human desires and needs and wants. However, a perfect state of harmony, or utopia is possible within ourselves, I believe and perhaps that is what one should try to obtain.
     
  20. deahca2

    deahca2 Member

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    RE: utopia within

    Think even that can be achieved by the normal person? I doubt that. Live has a way of interfering with serenity. lol
    deah
     
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