Utilitarian/Hedonistic Religions?

[omega2xx]

Over half of the world's people with HIV live in Eastern and Southern Africa, a region stretching from Eritrea down to South Africa. 19 million in total, making 7.1% of the region's population. 59% of the people in this area living with HIV are women. Tracking new HIV infections shows that 6% of them are accounted for by men who have sex with men, meaning 94% of HIV infections are nothing to do with homosexual men. Sex workers make up 4%, their clients and related people 9%, people who inject drugs 2%.

It is very difficult to provide treatment to the population of men who have sex with men on account of widespread societal homophobia, which is a big part of why HIV is more prevalent among them than the baseline. Research in Western countries has shown that reducing stigmatisation of homosexual behaviour produces marked improvements in the health of the population in question

You can quote all of the statistics you want to. It wont change how the virus spread.

Anything that can cause harm about sex outside marriage can also occur within marriage. Rape, disease transmission, abuse, physical damage and so forth can all occur within the context of a marriage, while sex outside a marriage can be totally loving and consensual.

Irrelevant. Adultery does emotional harm to the innocent spouse. The things you mentioned will not change that.

 

[Yohanan ben Yaaqov]

Well I can assure you that chr-stianity is not the belief system you are looking for. In the book of the chr-stian fairytale called Second Timothy, at chapter 3 verses 2 through 4, they condemn virtually everything you are searching for. In particular the line that says “lovers of pleasures more/rather/instead of lovers of (the chr-stian) god(s).”

God gave humankind five senses, which include pleasure sensors. Why would He give them to us if He did not want us to use them? Chr-stianity is a virulent toxin that has been poisoning the minds of mankind since the day it was invented by the Emperor Theodosius I in 380 CE.

God gave the nation of Israel 613 Mitz’vot, among them there are none that prohibit any kind of sensory pleasure; among them there are none that prohibit premarital sex; the only extra-marital sex that is prohibited is a married woman having sex with anyone other than her husband, and to clarify if a married Jewish man has sex with any or every unmarried woman it is NOT adultery. In fact there is a Taqqanot which states that if a Jewish man is going to be 200 miles or more away from his wife for more than 72 hours he should acquire the services of a prostitute.

God is very concerned with the happiness of his people which is why He created divorce; if a couple is not compatible for whatever reason, they should not be together and should be allowed to find someone they will be happy with.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not suggesting that you should convert to, or even consider Judaism, because there is no need for that. In order to be a righteous gentile, you basically only have to be a decent person. If you’re not a career criminal, or a follower of false gods, such as the chr-stian pantheon, you’re good to go.

Just remember that Gene Simmons from Kiss is an observant Orthodox Jew, and that dude indulges in the pleasures of life on an everyday basis. Just something for you to think about.

 

[omega2xx]

Don't you feel any remorse for spreading bigoted falsehoods, then?

Instead of accusing me of something why not post the bigoted falsehood I made. Maybe you intellectual level is not high enough to really know what is false and what is not.


The statement you just made is more bigoted than anything I have said and I bet you don't feel any remorse.

Take some good Biblical advice, Get the plank our of your own eye before you try to get the splinter out of mine.

 

[Yohanan ben Yaaqov]

@omega2xx: You do realize that the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus was first transmitted to humans before 1910; resulting in Group M of HIV-1. The first recorded case of an American citizen dying from the HIV virus occurred in 1959. Absolutely nothing to do with any kind of sexuality whatsoever.

You are uninformed, a gay-basher, a bigot, and a fool for believing in a Roman fairytale. Perhaps you should actually do your homework before jumping in and ramming your own foot so far down your own throat that it comes out of your anus. But you are a chr-stian, why wouldn’t you believe lies and propaganda? It is everything that your religion is all about.

 

[Kirran]

You can quote all of the statistics you want to. It wont change how the virus spread.



Irrelevant. Adultery does emotional harm to the innocent spouse. The things you mentioned will not change that.

So the information about how it spread you get from where?

R.e. the second thing - I'm not talking about adultery, I'm talking about sex between unmarried people.

 

[LuisDantas]

Instead of accusing me of something why not post the bigoted falsehood I made. Maybe you intellectual level is not high enough to really know what is false and what is not.

Take responsibility for what you say, man.

 

[Kapalika]

Thanks for all the answers - very interesting and has got me thinking! When I mean Hedonism I mean the idea of enlightened self-interest which helps others simultaneously. Not a selfish sort of principle but for example, a lot of the dharmic religions focus on getting rid of the self, on emptiness and non-being, whereas I think it's good to have things you can do that you enjoy, that make you uniquely you, that you can share with others - basically a spirituality that solidifies your own better identity. Does that make sense?

It gets rid of the ego or false self. Different branches differ on the next but in my own Tantric religion you do have a focus on the Aham or "heart", the real "I" as having a Shiva nature and therefore very real. The goal is to realize that as it's own Shiva-like nature, you being a "face" of Shiva, and erasing the false borders between self and the rest of the Universe.

That explanation might be a little confusing, but it's the best explanation I can think of right now without getting deeper into it, and an example that not all Dharmic religions are like you described.

See my response to Kirran below, that is probably more applicable to your situation.

In dharmic religions it's more about realising what is true, which leads to a greater actualisation of your individual self at the same as a disidentification with it. It'd not like 'do we prefer to identify with the individual or not?' it's more like 'is the individual truly the self?'

I think it's important to distinguish between what we are dis-identifying with versus actualizing. In the most basic layman's terms, we are dissociating with our self-image and actualizing our actual selves. A lot of people fall into the trap of self-image actualization, the self-image is the ego, the actual self is the true self.

What you refer to is largely pantheism, I think, and therefore, at least from my point of view, complete nonsense, and so susceptible to being reduced to the status of a guru-centric human cult; and which even through asceticism, is unlikely to be productive of anything but endless cultism.

A guru centric human cult of who? Who are we worshiping? You don't know much about my religion, I take it. You're just speaking out of ignorance. Actually you might just even be confusing some westernized bastardization with the real thing.

In another age, you would have been taken for a witch. Eternal life is assuredly forfeited by voluntarily engaging with the superfluous, vain and irrelevant gnosis attributable to demons and / or satan.

In another age your kind would of murdered me no matter the merit of my deeds. So you are not doing your religion any favors here.

 

[arthra]

Well a couple of things come to mind... I would suggest that our social institutions such as the family are in very poor condition...Viewing the U.S. stats for marriage in 2002:

Percentage of population that is married: 59% (down from 62% in 1990, 72% in 1970)

You can deduce that our family structure in the US is less stable.. A less stable family can mean chaos for stable nurturing of children.

Also see:

Percentage of households with their own children under 18: 33%
Percentage of married householders with kids: 24%
Percentage of all households run by single moms: 9.2%
Percentage of all households run by single dads: 1.9%
Number of single parents: Males: 2.04 million
Females: 9.68 million

U.S. Divorce Statistics

Also while some may argue that sex outside marriage can't hurt any one it is nonetheless a standard of marriage that is weakening.. Raising children in a family where sexual behaviour is less controlled is a very poor example for the children and leads to further weakening of social mores.

 

[LuisDantas]

@arthra , statistics on such a matter are unreliable, even misleading.

To a significant degree the numbers reflect not so much the decline of marriage proper as the acceptance of the need for realistic expectations from people.

Nor is marriage quite so correlated to the quality of family environments as it might appear at first glance. Marriage is a very specific element of a very complex social situation.

A big reason why marriage lost prestige is because it had an inflated, unreasonable role just a a few decades ago. People brandished it as if it were a magic cure for a variety of situations, character flaws and expectations. The result, as one should expect, was a veritable culture of hidden misery.

 

[Liu]

What circumstances justifies adultery? The one harmed by adultery is the one not committing the sin.

Sorry for the belated reply.
But if you want to have a fair discussion, then please don't change the definition from one post to the next. We had defined sin as something which harms the sinner - therefore what harm is done to other people doesn't matter by this definition.

Open relationships are not based on love. If love is not the basis, who cares about the feeling of the other.

Now that is simply wrong and prejudiced.

Mandi mentioned it, on the first page.

But I agree with her in that in Tantra sensuality seems to be used first and foremost as a tool, and not for its own sake. Therefore I'd not really call that hedonism.
I don't know how most actual tantrikas deal with that, though.

I didn't read any of this.

That part of my comment wasn't directed at you anyway, as you could have seen by it being introduced by a quote from another user.

 

[omega2xx]

Well I can assure you that chr-stianity is not the belief system you are looking for. In the book of the chr-stian fairytale called Second Timothy, at chapter 3 verses 2 through 4, they condemn virtually everything you are searching for. In particular the line that says “lovers of pleasures more/rather/instead of lovers of (the chr-stian) god(s).”

It is always amusing when someone calls Christianity a fairytale but offers no proof. Do you really think anyone except a like-minded person will believe you? Most if not all of what is listed as evil in 2 Timothy is also listed as bad in the OT.

God gave humankind five senses, which include pleasure sensors. Why would He give them to us if He did not want us to use them? Chr-stianity is a virulent toxin that has been poisoning the minds of mankind since the day it was invented by the Emperor Theodosius I in 380 CE.

Do you really think God condones sin, like adultery that give pleasure? Some murder for pleasure. Is that OK with your god? It is not with mine.

God gave the nation of Israel 613 Mitz’vot, among them there are none that prohibit any kind of sensory pleasure; among them there are none that prohibit premarital sex; the only extra-marital sex that is prohibited is a married woman having sex with anyone other than her husband, and to clarify if a married Jewish man has sex with any or every unmarried woman it is NOT adultery.

That simply isn't true. God forbids homosexual sex, sex between close relatives, incest.

In fact there is a Taqqanot which states that if a Jewish man is going to be 200 miles or more away from his wife for more than 72 hours he should acquire the services of a prostitute.

Stick to what God says not what some pervert man says and you will know the truth and it will set you free.

Your lack of understanding God's word is sad. What is worse is your bigoted remarks about a religion of which you are totally ignorant. Why would anyone accept a religion with 613 rules they can't obey perfectly all the time, instead of the few listed in 2 Timothy?

God is very concerned with the happiness of his people which is why He created divorce; if a couple is not compatible for whatever reason, they should not be together and should be allowed to find someone they will be happy with.

Your ignorance continues. God allows divorce to keep some men from murdering a wife they no longer love.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not suggesting that you should convert to, or even consider Judaism, because there is no need for that. In order to be a righteous gentile, you basically only have to be a decent person. If you’re not a career criminal, or a follower of false gods, such as the chr-stian pantheon, you’re good to go.

Your ignorance continues. It might help if you read Ps 14 2-3. Then turn to Gen 15:6 and see how Abram became righteous. God doesn't have a plan B for man to become righteous.

When you are thinking about wht that man did, think about if he plesed God and will he end up in heaven.

@omega2xx: You do realize that the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus was first transmitted to humans before 1910; resulting in Group M of HIV-1. The first recorded case of an American citizen dying from the HIV virus occurred in 1959. Absolutely nothing to do with any kind of sexuality whatsoever.

I doubt if that is true but since you have not posted your source, I doubt if you can. provide a reliable one. However it is irrelevant. Homosexuals spread the virus which killed innocent people.

You are uninformed, a gay-basher, a bigot, and a fool for believing in a Roman fairytale.

And you are a lying bigot. I have NEVER bashed homosexuals. What I posted was a verifiable fact.

I don't need Romans to show you are out of touch with Jehovah and ignorant of your own Scriptures .


You are the fool for not believing what Romans says about homosexual conduct that is not said ind he OT.

Perhaps you should actually do your homework before jumping in and ramming your own foot so far down your own throat that it comes out of your anus. But you are a chr-stian, why wouldn’t you believe lies and propaganda? It is everything that your religion is all about.

Perhaps you should try to overcome your ignorance by using what God says, instead of what you THINK. Bigotry is usually the result of ignorance. You might want to start with a good dictionary and look up the meaning of "bigot." It might help; you see that your remarks are bigoted, but I doubt if it will.

Have a + day.

 

[omega2xx]

So the information about how it spread you get from where?

For some reason I can't cut and paste off of the internet. It is mainly spread from sexual activity between homosexuals and from blood transfusions, befof they started test for the virus.

R.e. the second thing - I'm not talking about adultery, I'm talking about sex between unmarried people.

That is fornication, which is also a sin(Heb 13:4),

 

[omega2xx]

Take responsibility for what you say, man.

Take your own advice. You said I did, I say I didn't. You take responsibility and post the statement I made that you are referring to or admit you can't. That is the intelligent thing to do.

 

[Tumah]

God gave humankind five senses, which include pleasure sensors. Why would He give them to us if He did not want us to use them?

That sounds like a good argument for eating pig.

God gave the nation of Israel 613 Mitz’vot, among them there are none that prohibit any kind of sensory pleasure; among them there are none that prohibit premarital sex; the only extra-marital sex that is prohibited is a married woman having sex with anyone other than her husband,

Please see:
Gen. 34:31 with accompanying commentary
Lev. 19:2 with commentary by Nachmanides
Deut. 23:18 with commentary by Rashi
Sanhedrin 82b
Maimonides Prohibited Relations chapter 12 and Matrimony 1:4
Responsa of Rabbi Isaac ben Sheshes #425

and to clarify if a married Jewish man has sex with any or every unmarried woman it is NOT adultery.

Well, that's true.

In fact there is a Taqqanot

The singular of Taqanot is Taqanah.

which states that if a Jewish man is going to be 200 miles or more away from his wife for more than 72 hours he should acquire the services of a prostitute.

Source?

In order to be a righteous gentile, you basically only have to be a decent person. If you’re not a career criminal, or a follower of false gods, such as the chr-stian pantheon, you’re good to go.

Please see Maimonides, Kings and Wars chapters 9 and 10 which disagree with you.

Just remember that Gene Simmons from Kiss is an observant Orthodox Jew, and that dude indulges in the pleasures of life on an everyday basis. Just something for you to think about.

Source?

 

[Kirran]

For some reason I can't cut and paste off of the internet. It is mainly spread from sexual activity between homosexuals and from blood transfusions, befof they started test for the virus.

Maybe in some parts of the world. But I just provided you with the statistics for the region where the majority of HIV infections are taking place.

That is fornication, which is also a sin(Heb 13:4),

Well, we're not having a discussion based on a literalist understanding of the Bible, but from basic principles.

 

[omega2xx]

Sorry for the belated reply.
But if you want to have a fair discussion, then please don't change the definition from one post to the next. We had defined sin as something which harms the sinner - therefore what harm is done to other people doesn't matter by this definition.

Lets get the facts straight. You may have limited i to the one who commits adultery, but I did not.

Now that is simply wrong and prejudiced.

That is your OPINION. I have a different one. True love requires a commitment. The marriage license makes a commitment.

That part of my comment wasn't directed at you anyway, as you could have seen by it being introduced by a quote from another user.

Okay, but I can still comment on it, right?

 

[omega2xx]

That sounds like a good argument for eating pig.


Please see:
Gen. 34:31 with accompanying commentary
Lev. 19:2 with commentary by Nachmanides
Deut. 23:18 with commentary by Rashi
Sanhedrin 82b
Maimonides Prohibited Relations chapter 12 and Matrimony 1:4
Responsa of Rabbi Isaac ben Sheshes #425


Well, that's true.


The singular of Taqanot is Taqanah.


Source?

Your comment about eating pork is the best I have heard in a long time. I hope it hits him right between his eyes. Thanks.


Please see Maimonides, Kings and Wars chapters 9 and 10 which disagree with you.


Source?

 

[omega2xx]

Maybe in some parts of the world. But I just provided you with the statistics for the region where the majority of HIV infections are taking place.

That doesn't change the main reason it was spread years ago.

Well, we're not having a discussion based on a literalist understanding of the Bible, but from basic principles.

A basic principal of the Bible is that fornication is a sin. Remember much of the Bible is literal. I know that statement steps on a lot of toes for this genertion, but I am a parrot. I just say what someone else has said.

 

[LuisDantas]

Take your own advice. You said I did, I say I didn't.

Such a shame.

You take responsibility and post the statement I made that you are referring to or admit you can't. That is the intelligent thing to do.

Then you know how it works. Yet more reason to do it.

 

[Kirran]

That doesn't change the main reason it was spread years ago.

How many years ago? Where? In which contexts?

HIV originated and spread in Africa as a result of lack of knowledge of sexual hygiene. Its arrival in the West and entry into the MSM communities there is a relatively recent phenomenon.