USA Veto against Palestinians Again and again

[Kooky]

It's called sarcasm.
Israel is not interested in peacefully coexisting with terrorist organizations.

Then what exactly is the end game here, in your opinion, if Israel cannot coexist with Palestine in its current form?

What do you envision as the military-political goal that is to be achieved by the IDF in order to end this conflict?

 

[Harel13]

Then what exactly is the end game here, in your opinion, if Israel cannot coexist with Palestine in its current form?

What do you envision as the military-political goal that is to be achieved by the IDF in order to end this conflict?

There's a bit of a difference between what I envision and what I think the current Israeli government envisions.

I envision Israel asserting full sovereignty over all of the Land of Israel, Gaza, Judea and Samaria included. The government I believe envisions taking down Hamas and the current PA leadership in hopes of bringing about the rise of a PA that is actually interested in peace and helping its citizens, neither of which are goals of either the current PA or Hamas.

 

[Kooky]

There's a bit of a difference between what I envision and what I think the current Israeli government envisions.

I envision Israel asserting full sovereignty over all of the Land of Israel, Gaza, Judea and Samaria included. The government I believe envisions taking down Hamas and the current PA leadership in hopes of bringing about the rise of a PA that is actually interested in peace and helping its citizens, neither of which are goals of either the current PA or Hamas.

That seems contradictory. Where would a Palestinian Authority be located when all Palestinian territory has been integrated into Israel? Are you envisioning a separate jurisdiction for Palestinians within Israeli territory (since Palestinians would be illegal aliens and not citizens)?

 

[Harel13]

That seems contradictory. Where would a Palestinian Authority be located when all Palestinian territory has been integrated into Israel? Are you envisioning a separate jurisdiction for Palestinians within Israeli territory (since Palestinians would be illegal aliens and not citizens)?

That's the thing. There won't be a PA. The Arabs will become residents of Israel or perhaps even receive citizenship. That's what would have happened had Israel assumed full sovereignty after the Six Day War.

 

[Kooky]

That's the thing. There won't be a PA. The Arabs will become residents of Israel or perhaps even receive citizenship. That's what would have happened had Israel assumed full sovereignty after the Six Day War.

As far as I can tell, all Knesset parties to the right of the center are flat out against giving Arabs citizenship, and given their rampant paranoia over Arabs "outbreeding" Jews, giving them all citizenship after the PA has been obliberated (and therefore, when there is no political incentive to make concessions to the Arabs) sounds even less likely to me.

Even these days, there are requirements for naturalized citizens to "uphold the Jewish character of Israel", if I remember correctly.

Would you be fine with treating all Arab Palestinians as permanent foreign citizens, like they are being treated nowadays?

 

[Harel13]

Would you be fine with treating all Arab Palestinians as permanent foreign citizens, like they are being treated nowadays?

As I said, I prefer residency status.

 

[Kooky]

As I said, I prefer residency status.

With the same rights as Jews, the same ability to influence your country's political makeup via elections and parliamentary politics, including the ability to turn Israel away from being an explicitly Jewish Zionist state, potentially comprising a politically influential Arab majority; the right to contest IDF policing actions and illegal Jewish settlements in front of judges for whom Zionism may not be the guiding ideology; the right to elect their own local representatives, enacting policies not in line with Zionist Judaism, or even directly opposed to it?

 

[Harel13]

With the same rights as Jews, the same ability to influence your country's political makeup via elections and parliamentary politics, including the ability to turn Israel away from being an explicitly Jewish Zionist state, potentially comprising a politically influential Arab majority; the right to contest IDF policing actions and illegal Jewish settlements in front of judges for whom Zionism may not be the guiding ideology; the right to elect their own local representatives, enacting policies not in line with Zionist Judaism, or even directly opposed to it?

I said residency, not citizenship. Permanent residency, as opposed to citizenship with full rights. Like the Arabs in East Jerusalem.
Permanent residents are not eligible to vote, and if they leave Israel to become permanent residents elsewhere, they cannot become permanent residents of Israel once more.

 

[Kooky]

I said residency, not citizenship. Permanent residency, as opposed to citizenship with full rights. Like the Arabs in East Jerusalem.
Permanent residents are not eligible to vote, and if they permanently leave Israel they cannot become permanent residents of Israel once more.

So you would treat them as foreigners in the lands where they were born and lived, forever shut out from the ability to influence the domestic politics of their own home country, or even their own hometowns, forever second class people.
And you consider this your ideal solution to the "problem" of Arab Palestine.

And then you are puzzled why people would find that ideal execrable and would take up arms to prevent it from coming to pass.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Hello all.
Recently USA use veto condemned israeli crimes "more 220 civilians dies half of them kids and women" in Gaza.And call for cease fire and peace.

I believe West human value is just big lie.
Breaked by some politics value.
Bad reality :
"You are humans depends your politics path, nationality and religion and maybe what you have money!!!‘

No, America does not really value human life. It's all propaganda.

 

[Harel13]

So you would treat them as foreigners in the lands where they were born and lived, forever shut out from the ability to influence the domestic politics of their own home country, or even their own hometowns, forever second class people.
And you consider this your ideal solution to the "problem" of Arab Palestine.

And then you are puzzled why people would find that ideal execrable and would take up arms to prevent it from coming to pass.

Pausing for a moment for a question. In your view, does Israel have any right to exist?

 

[Lyndon]

Pausing for a moment for a question. In your view, does Israel have any right to exist?

Not if it involves totally repressing the Palestinians, the longer this goes on the less valid the Israeli claims on Palestine have become.

 

[Kooky]

Pausing for a moment for a question. In your view, does Israel have any right to exist?

I believe that Jewish people have a right to exist in whatever collective form any of them chooses, provided that form does not oppress other people (such as the Arabs of Palestine) or infringe on their rights to exist freely.

I do not believe that states can have rights.

 

[Harel13]

I believe that Jewish people have a right to exist in whatever collective form any of them chooses, provided that form does not oppress other people (such as the Arabs of Palestine) or infringe on their rights to exist freely.

Do the Jewish people have a right to form an autonomous country in any part of what is now Israel?

 

[Kooky]

Do the Jewish people have a right to form an autonomous country in any part of what is now Israel?

Every single Jewish person has the right to join likeminded people of any ethnicity and any religion to form an autonomous commune of any size in any place, in my opinion, so sure why not. My central caveat here is the absence of oppression.

 

[Harel13]

Every single Jewish person has the right to join likeminded people of any ethnicity and any religion to form an autonomous commune of any size in any place, in my opinion, so sure why not. My central caveat here is the absence of oppression.

Does the 1947 UN partition plan fall in line with your view?

 

[Rival]

Every single Jewish person has the right to join likeminded people of any ethnicity and any religion to form an autonomous commune of any size in any place, in my opinion, so sure why not. My central caveat here is the absence of oppression.

Yes or no, can Jews have their own country?

 

[Kooky]

Does the 1947 UN partition plan fall in line with your view?

If I remember correctly, the UN partition plan called for the large scale deportation of ethnic groups, didn't it?
In that light, probably not.

 

[Kooky]

Yes or no, can Jews have their own country?

I would support a "Jewish" country that recognizes the rights of everyone regardless of ethnicity, heritage and religion.

But if you are asking if I would support a Jewish ethnostate that excludes non-Jews, then the answer is "No".

 

[Rival]

But I would not support a Jewish ethnostate that excludes non-Jews, no.

Good, because Israel doesn't.