USA Politics and the Slippery Slope

[joe1776]

Recently I authored a thread arguing that the Blackstone Ratio, a basic premise in USA's laws on criminal justice should be abandoned. Two of the posters who most doggedly opposed my position made slippery slope arguments.

Because of the current attention on racism in police departments, you are going to read and hear more slippery slope arguments made in the media.

Slippery slope arguments are usually (not always) logical fallacies. The argument asserts that if some minor first step is taken it will lead eventually to calamity. In debates on criminal justice, the slippery slope argument predicts catastrophe with the government and the police as the villains abusing power outrageously.

Abuses of power do happen, obviously. The police and the government need to be subject to strong independent oversight, but they aren't going to join in some grand conspiracy to take our rights away, not in this country. If US citizens need arch villains to worry about, they should keep an eye on the super rich because money is power.

Fellow citizen of the USA: As a general rule, do you think that fear of the government or the police is realistic in our country?

 

[Nakosis]

Fellow citizen of the USA: As a general rule, do you think that fear of the government or the police is realistic in our country?

I don't know if it is fear as much as corruption.

Doesn't mean that the government is out to get anyone but more there is little guarantee that as the government is given more power, it will continue to look out for any particular citizen's best interest.

 

[joe1776]

I don't know if it is fear as much as corruption.

Doesn't mean that the government is out to get anyone but more there is little guarantee that as the government is given more power, it will continue to look out for any particular citizen's best interest.

I notice that you are a libertarian, so we have a fundamental disagreement on the rights of the individual.

As for how much power a government should have, my position is simple: If a government is inept, corrupt or both, it should have no power. It should be abandoned.

If the government is efficient and free of corruption, one consistently making good policy choices, then it should have whatever power it needs to implement its decisions.

 

[Polymath257]

Fellow citizen of the USA: As a general rule, do you think that fear of the government or the police is realistic in our country?

If you have white skin, probably not.

If you have black or brown skin, it is a serious concern. I don't know of a single black man who hasn't experienced an interaction with the police that would be seen as intolerable by a white man.

 

[Revoltingest]

....keep an eye on the super rich because money is power.

Fellow citizen of the USA: As a general rule, do you think that fear of the government or the police is realistic in our country?

The "super rich" don't worry me. Tis the voters who created our
oppressive law & order legal system. "Fear" might be re-stated
as "wary of" gov & cops....yes, that's a good idea. It applies to all.
Those who believing racism is the problem miss the bigger picture.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you have white skin, probably not.

You've led a charmed life then compared to whities I know.
Being melanin challenged is no guarantee against over-zealous
prosecutors, sexual assault, false arrest, ordinary assault, guns
pointed at us, policing for profit, etc.
My spider-sense says "Danger!" when I see cops. I run with a
rougher crowd, eh.

To be statistically better off than blacks doesn't eliminate the danger.
Moreover, race is distracting from a greater disparity....95% of the
people shot by cops are males. You & I frighten them into violent
mode, eh.
To add to Chris Rock's excellent advice for a black driver to bring
along a white friend, we guys should bring along a female friend
(one who isn't angry).

 

[joe1776]

If you have white skin, probably not.

If you have black or brown skin, it is a serious concern. I don't know of a single black man who hasn't experienced an interaction with the police that would be seen as intolerable by a white man.

When I wrote "as a general rule," in my question, I was allowing for exceptions such as racist cops.

 

[icehorse]

Fellow citizen of the USA: As a general rule, do you think that fear of the government or the police is realistic in our country?

Possible outcomes can be placed on a continuum. At extreme ends we can worry about total societal collapse and a "mad max" world. Slightly less extreme would be a "1984" society. Less extreme would be the collapse of the middle class.

I think that fearing the collapse of the middle class is a very plausible fear.

 

[Nakosis]

I notice that you are a libertarian, so we have a fundamental disagreement on the rights of the individual.

As for how much power a government should have, my position is simple: If a government is inept, corrupt or both, it should have no power. It should be abandoned.

If the government is efficient and free of corruption, one consistently making good policy choices, then it should have whatever power it needs to implement its decisions.

I don't believe a government free of corruption is possible. People will usually put their own interests first. There's no guarantee the interests of the people in power will align with yours. When they do great, when they don't, not much you can do about it. Therefore it's best to limit the powers of government as if they see the need for their interest to use that power against you, they will.

 

[Revoltingest]

When I wrote "as a general rule," in my question, I was allowing for exceptions such as racist cops.

I think it was in this episode of Hidden Brain that dealt with a study
of implicit racism against blacks that it was also found in black cops.
The Air We Breathe: Implicit Bias And Police Shootings : Hidden Brain
Reminds me of Freddie....3 of the 6 cops who killed him were black.

 

[joe1776]

Possible outcomes can be placed on a continuum. At extreme ends we can worry about total societal collapse and a "mad max" world. Slightly less extreme would be a "1984" society. Less extreme would be the collapse of the middle class.

I think that fearing the collapse of the middle class is a very plausible fear.

Are you referring to the economic collapse or moral collapse of the middle class?

 

[joe1776]

I don't believe a government free of corruption is possible. People will usually put their own interests first. There's no guarantee the interests of the people in power will align with yours. When they do great, when they don't, not much you can do about it. Therefore it's best to limit the powers of government as if they see the need for their interest to use that power against you, they will.

I think good, clean government is possible in the future. In fact, I think I know how it will be done.

I won't give you a full explanation now, but it involves decisions being made by expert panels comprised of members who can't possibly engage in collusion.

 

[Quintessence]

I'm a bit confused by framing the question. Realistic? Don't you mean rational or justified?

And of course it is. In the midst of a pandemic that was mishandled by our national leaders who are supposed to make policy calls to help protect citizens from a crisis like this, how can anyone seriously ask this question? If you aren't afraid of how the United States government is going to respond (poorly) to the next crisis, you aren't paying attention. We quite literally had our leader fanning the flames and increasing divisiveness in another crisis that has happened alongside the pandemic.

 

[Nakosis]

I think good, clean government is possible in the future. In fact, I think I know how it will be done.

I won't give you a full explanation now, but it involves decisions being made by expert panels comprised of members who can't possibly engage in collusion.

Theoretically possible sure. The impossible part is getting people to set aside their interests to vote for it.

 

[icehorse]

Are you referring to the economic collapse or moral collapse of the middle class?

I'm not sure I'm seeing much moral collapse, but I'm open to hearing about it. In other words, I was focused on economic collapse.

It strikes me that oligarchs / large corporations seem to believe that our economy has an infinite capacity to be stolen from, pillaged if you will. I believe that such pillaging (as evidenced by massive wealth and income inequalities), is bringing us to the brink of economic collapse. The oligarchs / big corps seem to have lost track of the idea that they need financially secure consumers for their own survival.

 

[sun rise]

Fellow citizen of the USA: As a general rule, do you think that fear of the government or the police is realistic in our country?

Before Trump, i would have said no to government. Now I say absolutely yes if government is in right-wing hands.

About police my answer is yes especially for minorities:

@Revoltingest has indirectly raised the question of the accuracy of the Stanford prison experiment. The basic question which I personally don't think is settled is to what degree social pressure causes people to adapt to and adopt negative behavior such as abusive prison guards (and police) in response to the culture in which they operate.

My unscientific opinion is that blacks and other minorities have it worse due to a racist culture in many departments. And there are cops who are individually racist. And there are cops who are "drunk with power" and react badly to anything they perceive as a challenge.

 

[columbus]

I won't give you a full explanation now, but it involves decisions being made by expert panels comprised of members who can't possibly engage in collusion.

Should you ever attempt to give an explanation for this, please start by explaining how you're going to find such saints who are also willing to jump into the meatgrinder of modern media.

Heck, we can't even get a SCOTUS like that. Not when the super rich have employees like Mitch McConnell willing to blow off The Constitution for political purposes.
Tom

 

[joe1776]

I'm a bit confused by framing the question. Realistic? Don't you mean rational or justified?

And of course it is. In the midst of a pandemic that was mishandled by our national leaders who are supposed to make policy calls to help protect citizens from a crisis like this, how can anyone seriously ask this question? If you aren't afraid of how the United States government is going to respond (poorly) to the next crisis, you aren't paying attention. We quite literally had our leader fanning the flames and increasing divisiveness in another crisis that has happened alongside the pandemic.

The slippery slope argument in American politics ends with the government or the police cast as villains who will abuse power outrageously against the citizenry. I asked if that concern was realistic.

Your post refers to bad judgment. Poor decision-making, incompetency. That's not relevant to my question.

 

[joe1776]

Should you ever attempt to give an explanation for this, please start by explaining how you're going to find such saints who are also willing to jump into the meatgrinder of modern media.

Panel members are experts chosen randomly from a list of qualified people. They meet and debate online and might live anywhere in the world.

For example, the decisions on a panel of climate scientists would decide on decisions re: global warming. A panel of economists would decide how to implement those decisions.

Such panels could be strictly advisory in the beginning.

 

[joe1776]

Theoretically possible sure. The impossible part is getting people to set aside their interests to vote for it.

The new decision-making process could be set up in an advisory capacity only. It wouldn't need to be voted on.