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US comission demands release of Pakistani Ahmadi woman jailed for blasphemy

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
One more where a Muslim cleric attempts to justify the death penalty for leaving Islam:


I am still not finding the one that I was looking for. Muslim may be a religion of peace but we won't really know that as long as most Muslim countries can legally demonstrate the opposite.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
You cannot force people to draw Muhammad. That would be almost as bad as forcing people not to draw him.
I agree, that it should not be forced. I only said that to undo 1400 year of forced killing over drawing it might be needed to force them to draw, indicating that it is very unlikely that the "Kill over blasphemy Law" will change any day soon.

If it was an international holiday there would still be possibly billions of drawings every year. From complimentary to blasphemous. It would force the Muslims to remove the giant stick they have shoved up their behind in this matter.
Yes, I agree with this, that when the West if finally smart enough to not comply with Islam Sharia Kill Laws, by allowing to internationally draw Muhammad that this gradually will open Muslim eyes to being more tolerant towards other religions
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
There are a lot of what you would call "extremist" Muslims. In fact there was a video of what most would consider moderate Muslims in Britain and they thought that the death penalty was appropriate for Muslims that left the faith. I will have to see if I can find it.
Proof there are a lot "extremist Muslims" is the fact that Sharia Law countries killing blasphemers exist

For me the "Used Laws" tell me more about Islam THEN what is written in Koran and Sharia
Muslims challenge non Muslims to give prove and put things in context forgetting reality
A better proof of context than "Sharia Law killing blasphemers" I do not need

Many of Islam/Koran, so called, experts we find in exactly those countries, that still kill blasphemers, claiming Allah wants it

IF a whole country allows by Law to kill blasphemers THEN the whole country seems extremist and has no Freedom of Religion nor Freedom of Speech.
@stvdvRF
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I am sure you are correct in what you say about some muslims think like that.

But the important is, what does the teaching actually say?

I completely disagree that we should judge the "movement" by what it "actually" teaches. What is actually important, is how it is practiced. Because that is what actually impacts society and the lives of others. It's because of how it is implemented in Pakistan, that this woman is in jail.

"ow but it actually teaches this". The woman doesn't really care about that.


Did prophet Muhammed say, to kill those who leave islam?

I don't know. But many many muslims apparently think that that is exactly what should be done.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Not the video that I was looking for but here is a seven minute long video where a Muslim scholar admits at the end that the penalty for apostasy is death in Muslim countries, and he does not appear to be very apologetic for this:


I completely disagree that we should judge the "movement" by what it "actually" teaches. What is actually important, is how it is practiced. Because that is what actually impacts society and the lives of others. It's because of how it is implemented in Pakistan, that this woman is in jail.

"ow but it actually teaches this". The woman doesn't really care about that.




I don't know. But many many muslims apparently think that that is exactly what should be done.
I can not speak for other muslims, but to me islam teach respect toward everyone. Make or female. So yes it is a human fault they use islam as a "right to harm others"

What your view of islam is, that is not something i can argue because you are free to have your view.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I can not speak for other muslims, but to me islam teach respect toward everyone. Make or female. So yes it is a human fault they use islam as a "right to harm others"

What your view of islam is, that is not something i can argue because you are free to have your view.
You may be a bit confused. What we are not happy with is what some Muslim countries do using Islam as their excuse. Tell me, what should be the penalty for publicly leaving Islam? Let's say a Muslim saw the light and became an atheist. In Pakistan how should the Islam based government react? In any Muslim country how should the government react?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I can not speak for other muslims, but to me islam teach respect toward everyone. Make or female. So yes it is a human fault they use islam as a "right to harm others"

Sorry but whenever this comes up, I feel compelled to ask....

Why are you so certain that they are the ones who are at fault here?
Obviously you think your view is correct and theirs is wrong, that is what you believe. They believe the same thing the other way round. They think they are right and you are at fault.

From my perspective, both of you could be right or wrong what the "actual" teaching is. Frankly I couldn't care less, because I have no investment in it being one way or the other.

What matters to me is how people actually behave.
So here's another question... when condemning them for their behavior... when you would have to walk us through your reasoning process to show how you come to your judgement that this is bad behavior, does your religion ever come up? Does it need to come up? Or can you make a case that doesn't require an appeal to perceived authority?

What your view of islam is, that is not something i can argue because you are free to have your view.


I view Islam like I view pretty much every other faith based belief system. From homeopathy to astrology to voodoo to theistic religions.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Not the video that I was looking for but here is a seven minute long video where a Muslim scholar admits at the end that the penalty for apostasy is death in Muslim countries, and he does not appear to be very apologetic for this:

Interesting points (esp. at the end):
00:00:00= Muslim starts declaring "we have a right to bring up our children in our belief"
(And kill those that disagree with their believe and leave the Muslim Faith; as admitted in the end)

00:01:00 = Question to a Muslim
Q: non-Muslim asks essential and perfect question "what do you teach children what happens if they give up the Muslim Faith?".
A: Muslim his answer is "let's go back to the debate"
(The most important question not daring to simply answer with "Islam teaches ....")

00:03:33 = Question to a woman who left Iran (ex-Muslima)
Q: I believe you do not believe that religious principles are usually helpful to develop moral values
A: I believe that religious principles are often quite immoral ... girl was killed even for refusing to wear a veil

00:04:10 = Dawkins says that Christian religion is quite benign by comparison and we should respect it as such
A: IF a child wants to give up Christian religion, Church will say "okay, go your way" .. there is no penalty for apostasy at all

00:04:33 = Question to a woman who left Iran (ex-Muslima)
Q: Does a God shaped perspective of certain values do any harm to the way children should be taught...
A: 10 commandments is depressing ... why not teach Golden Rule ... it's not damaging but depressing to teach you need God in order to be moral
A: I would hope that our morals come from a better source than outdated scriptures or fear

00:06:35 = Question to a Muslima in UK?, and a Muslim
Q: What is the penalty for apostasy, for leaving the Muslim faith
A: To be honest, I can not back that point up
(The most important question not daring to simply answer with "Islam teaches ....")
A: IF it is an Islamic country THEN the Law is very clear, apostasy is dealt with the death penalty
(Finally the beast is out)
A: What is the relevance between an Islamic country and UK, I fail to see the connection
(Oh my God)

Very "enlightening" conversation. No more doubts about this issue. Islamic expert finally speaks out "Kill apostates is proper Islamic way"

Note: This proves that it's the duty of the West to protect itself from Islam.. I don't want to go back 1300 years in time having those moral values
@stvdvRF
 
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Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Muslim may be a religion of peace but we won't really know that as long as most Muslim countries can legally demonstrate the opposite.
We Are All Us.
We includes Muslims and Nonmuslims alike.
We must do away with separating ourselves based on fear and ignorance
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Note: This proves that it's the duty of the West to protect itself from Islam.. I don't want to go back 1300 years in time having those moral values
So you believe it is your duty to separate yourself
from your fellow human beings?

I am sorry for your pain, and sad for your loss.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
So you believe it is your duty to separate yourself
from your fellow human beings?

I am sorry for your pain, and sad for your loss.
Aha, you misread what I wrote AND missed the point here
According to this Muslim expert Islam tells us to kill apostates
So, it seems the duty of Islam to separate (kill) other human beings

00:06:35 = Question to a Muslima in UK?, and a Muslim
Q: What is the penalty for apostasy, for leaving the Muslim faith
A: IF it is an Islamic country THEN the Law is very clear, apostasy is dealt with the death penalty
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
We Are All Us.
We includes Muslims and Nonmuslims alike.
We must do away with separating ourselves based on fear and ignorance
Right, we includes all of us. Even Muslims in the U.S. can see the damage that Muslim countries do at times. At least honest ones can. There was no fear or ignorance in that post.

So far Muslims here have avoided answering the question of what should happen to a Muslim that leaves Islam publicly in a Muslim nation. I find that rather telling.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
So far Muslims here have avoided answering the question of what should happen to a Muslim that leaves Islam publicly in a Muslim nation. I find that rather telling.
I have seen it at least 10 times or more on RF. But I must admit that 2 Muslims did answer the question in a positive way.
But it is indeed quite telling that Muslims tend to avoid answering such questions

I can come up with 1 explanation: they are too scared to speak out their opinion, in fear for being killed
Because answering this question against Islam view, means you are an apostate, hence death penalty awaits you

I don't have a death wish myself, so if that is their reason for not answering, I can understand and even empathize
@stvdvRF
 
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Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
God's idea of how the world should run often clashes with US and world politics.

I recall electing the president of the United States. I don't recall making that president king of the world. Perhaps we should save money by not trying to be the king of the world...fighting foreign wars?

America was running elections in Iraq, because Iraqi elections were said to be unfair, while American elections were also said to be unfair (butterfly ballots, double ballots, illegals and dead people and dogs voting). The recent election of Biden over Trump was stalled late at night with a substantial lead for Trump, then vote counters went to bed with a substantial victory for Biden in the morning (as Trump pointed out). Part of that is explained by Trump telling his people not to vote with absentee ballots (so virtually all absentee votes went to Biden).

America tells other nations to abide by the US First Amendment's freedom of religion (but they don't have freedom of religion....they run things differently).

Sure, America has the right to ask the rest of the world to improve.

No longer should Chinese child slaves work for 25 cents per day (taking jobs from Americans). Of course, the US could impose sanctions....refuse to trade with nations that overwork and underpay kids and don't allow them to go to school. These child slaves have been taken away from their parents, and deprived of communication with parents.

There is a very cheery C&H Sugar commercial on TV, but little is said of the child slaves, who for generations, were taken from their families, given no food whatsoever (they ate sugar cane and had cavities that were not filled), and were not allowed to contact their families. US companies would use such slave workers, despite the fact that the slavery amendments prohibited slavery.

America balks at the splinter in the eye of its neighbors, and does nothing about the log in its own eye.

If America was serious about human rights violations, it would do something about the dictators who run other nations. But, America doesn't want to go to war to change things, and certainly foreign dictators don't want to step down. Senator John Kerry, in running for the presidency, said that he would impose sanctions if China wouldn't stop enslaving kids in their labor force. This would not only make US workers more competitive (jobs in America), but it would make fewer slaves in the world.

The Iran-Contra scandal of President Reagan and Vice President Bush senior, used counterfeit US currency and hard narcotics sales within the United States (brought there from the Mediene drug Cartel of Colombia, through Manuel Noriega of Panama) to fund arms sales (disguised as Russian made) to Iran, and to support the Contra dictatorship of Nicaragua and defeat the Socialist Sandinistas (who merely wanted a living wage and education for their kids). Reagan and Bush had to covertly go around the back of Congress (who opposed helping dictators), in order to pull off their scandal.

So, between the scandals that are hidden from the American public and the scandals that are occurring openly, the US does very little to stop such things as depriving religious freedom, slavery, arms sales, narcotics sales, and dictators.

The essence of Communism is a classless society. Well, if it is classless, why are there starving Jews in Russia who had been captives in Nazi death camps and now have to choose between heat, food, and necessary medicine? Why are their billionaires living in mansions and running global conglomerates in China while Chinese slave kids go hungry and have no hope to escape their bondage?

With the downfall of the Dowager Empress (and her 3,000 servant eunuchs), Chinese wore drab uniforms indicating that all Chinese were equals. Well, they aren't equal now. Now we have a Communist dictatorship, that could impose capital punishment and martial law, with a very unequal society.
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
One more where a Muslim cleric attempts to justify the death penalty for leaving Islam:
Thank you for sharing below video, solved a question I struggled with (Note)
This man seems to know quite a lot about the Koran, so it's very clear now that in Islamic State a Muslim leaving Islam should be killed IF the person propagates his new Faith to others. IF he keeps his mouth shut then he will not be killed. So, clearly no Freedom of Religion/Speech.
(This argument does not make Islam feel better, it makes Islam feel even worse in my view)

This scholar compares speaking negative about Islam as selling state documents to another country, so treason. Seems a smart comparison, but he is clearly forgetting what Freedom of Religion means. It's like in Animal Farm of A.Huxley "All animals are equal BUT pigs are more equal" becomes now "All religions are equal BUT Islam is more equal"

Also he says that an apostate can not be killed in a democratic country with normal Laws (not Islamic Law). Which again proves the importance that we should be very careful in the West to not get too many Muslims. I remember that a Dutch politician said recently "We are a democratic country, so if the majority becomes Muslim then it's only fair to have Sharia Law" being a true democratic country. Probably the poor man did not realize that such a change would be the end of our democracy OR does not realize what he has now, and not realizing at all what will be taken away from him under Sharia Law

Note: This again proves why Muslims on RF and elsewhere don't feel free to speak their mind about these Islam issues, because the moment you disagree with the Islam as interpreted by Sharia Law you have a bounty on your head, especially being a Muslim.

Good to know, first I could not understand why Muslims all tried so hard to avoid these inconvenient questions. But now it all makes sense. Even in Holland the Government asks people to report crimes, so I would not be surprised if that happens in Islam countries too. Those who avoid these question might be too scared to speak their heart
 
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