US Army Deserter Living The High Life In Duetschland

[Apex]

People make mistakes. People don't always want the same thing they did however many years ago they joined the military. He wants to go, let em go.

There is a fundamental problem with this that I do not think you are seeing. Our military is completley volunteer. The military takes these untrained volunteers and spends tens of thousands of dollars to train them. Because of this the volunteers sign a contract stating they will server for a certain amount of time, about 4 years. The military does this so they will get a return on their investment. Simply letting people leave whenever they wish would bankrupt not only the military, but the nation. For example, the military is paying roughly $100,000 to train me and put me through college. That is $100,000 of tax payers money, your money. If the military were to let people leave when ever they pleased I could graduate next year and walk away from the military with $100,000 of your taxes. This would cost the nation billions of dollars. It simply can not be allowed.

 

[Valjean]

I think the death penalty applies only to desertion in time of war. Our occupation of Iraq is not a declared war.

As far as joining the army goes, I think he was either stupid, extremely ignorant, or morally retarded. Who doesn't know that the purpose of the military is to kill people and destroy property?

If he suddenly had an attack of conscience, well, better late than never. Moral growth is possible. As far as his contract, well, that's a problem. It would be nice if there were a way to opt out of it, but, though options may exist on paper, we've all read or seen on TV the fate of people already in the military who apply for conscientious objector status. It just doesn't work.
This leaves desertion the only option.

As far as legality goes, laws are written by men, and men often make stupid or immoral laws. One is not obligated to observe a law just because it's a law. Conscience trumps law. One is morally obligated to disobey an immoral law.
We were certainly quick enough to condemn the perfectly legal actions of the Third Reich at Nuremberg, for example.

 

[Apex]

Then the slavery analogy applies. My cousin did not volunteer for the Iraq conflict, and would not have volunteered had he known it was coming.

No, it does not apply. Your cousin still volunteered to join the military. He knew, or should have known, that once he was in, he was most likely not going to be given the option to pick where he got to go.

Thanks.

1) What about COs who are drafted and refuse to perform their duties?
3) What is the crucial difference between desertion and other forms of civil disobedience?
4) What do you understand the intentions to be?

1)COs?
3) You choose to join the military. Thus you make the physical and mental choice to place yourself under the law of desertion. I would consider civil disobedience to be targeted against laws you do not willing place your self under.
4) Remove a harmful dictator. (who I think should have been removed before W even got into office)

 

[stacey bo bacey]

There is a fundamental problem with this that I do not think you are seeing. Our military is completley volunteer. The military takes these untrained volunteers and spends tens of thousands of dollars to train them. Because of this the volunteers sign a contract stating they will server for a certain amount of time, about 4 years. The military does this so they will get a return on their investment. Simply letting people leave whenever they wish would bankrupt not only the military, but the nation. For example, the military is paying roughly $100,000 to train me and put me through college. That is $100,000 of tax payers money, your money. If the military were to let people leave when ever they pleased I could graduate next year and walk away from the military with $100,000 of your taxes. This would cost the nation billions of dollars. It simply can not be allowed.

Ok, so now I understand this. But why should they go to prison? Or be put to death? Why not make them pay off the debt they owe?

And if they go to prison, we're still paying for that! It makes no sense.

 

[stacey bo bacey]

I think the death penalty applies only to desertion in time of war. Our occupation of Iraq is not a declared war.

As far as joining the army goes, I think he was either stupid, extremely ignorant, or morally retarded. Who doesn't know that the purpose of the military is to kill people and destroy property?

If he suddenly had an attack of conscience, well, better late than never. Moral growth is possible. As far as his contract, well, that's a problem. It would be nice if there were a way to opt out of it, but, though options may exist on paper, we've all read or seen on TV the fate of people already in the military who apply for conscious objector status. It just doesn't work.
This leaves desertion the only option.

As far as legality goes, laws are written by men, and men often make stupid or immoral laws. One is not obligated to observe a law just because it's a law. Conscience trumps law. One is morally obligated to disobey an immoral law.
We were certainly quick enough to condemn the perfectly legal actions of the Third Reich at Nuremberg, for example.

This is an excellent post and I agree with all of it!

 

[Apex]

Ok, so now I understand this. But why should they go to prison? Or be put to death? Why not make them pay off the debt they owe?

And if they go to prison, we're still paying for that! It makes no sense.

The prison sentence is used as a deterrent. And it is a fairly effective one. Making them pay back all the money that was spent on training them is also unrealistic as most people will never be able to afford to do so. Thus the military would still never get its money back.

 

[Storm]

No, it does not apply. You cousin still volunteered to join the military. He knew, or should have known, that once he was in, he was most likely not going to be given the option to pick where he got to go.

He did not know, however, that he would be sent into a conflict to which he was morally opposed. He was suckered by a bait-and-switch.

Also, I've heard stories of recuruiters promising gullible kids they'll never see combat. If such a thing happened, would that entitle desertion?

1) COs?

Conscientious Objectors, sorry.

3) You choose to join the military. Thus you make the physical and mental choice to place yourself under the law of desertion. I would consider civil disobedience to be targeted against laws you do not willing place your self under.

That makes sense.

4) Remove a harmful dictator. (who I think should have been removed before W even got into office)

OK. I don't want to debate Iraq here, but I disagree with you. I think the powers that be targeted Iraq in the service of imperialism. I believe that they lied left and right to drum up support, and the morality of removing Saddam is just the latest excuse. I believe it's an unjust war at best, and maybe even an illegal one.

If you believed the same, would you be more charitable to deserters from Iraq?

 

[stacey bo bacey]

The prison sentence is used as a deterrent. And it is a fairly effective one. Making them pay back all the money that was spent on training them is also unrealistic as most people will never be able to afford to do so. Thus the military would still never get its money back.

So we get stiffed on the money lost when they abandoned the military and then get to pay for them to stay in prison. :clap Awesome idea.

 

[Apex]

So we get stiffed on the money lost when they abandoned the military and then get to pay for them to stay in prison. :clap Awesome idea.

Not many people abandon the military. Most server their time and get out. We need some kind of deterrent and prison is an effective one. Also, the money being spent on their prison sentences is comming from the military's budget. Thus no real extra money is being spent. Again, we have the choice of spending billions on people who leave after their training is finished, or we spend a few hundred thousand over several years on a few who abandon their posts. It is not a hard choice.

 

[Apex]

He did not know, however, that he would be sent into a conflict to which he was morally opposed. He was suckered by a bait-and-switch.

Sadly, that is his fault. It is well known that you have very little choice in the military when it comes to what you wish to do.

Also, I've heard stories of recuruiters promising gullible kids they'll never see combat. If such a thing happened, would that entitle desertion?

I regret that the stories of recruiters is true and something needs to be done about it. However, it is still not enough reason to entitle desertion. It would be unrealistic to investigate every case of someone claiming they were "suckered" into joining. It would also give too many people the option to simply lie their way out of serving.

Conscientious Objectors, sorry.

Oh, I would not have a problem with it.

OK. I don't want to debate Iraq here, but I disagree with you. I think the powers that be targeted Iraq in the service of imperialism. I believe that they lied left and right to drum up support, and the morality of removing Saddam is just the latest excuse. I believe it's an unjust war at best, and maybe even an illegal one.

If you believed the same, would you be more charitable to deserters from Iraq?

No. Again, you should know what you are getting into when you join the military. For example, I can not publicly criticize the president. I am fully aware of this and realize that it was my choice to place my self under this removal of my right to free speech. Just image if many of the people here on RF would have been not allowed to criticize W. when he was in office and how they would have reacted?

 

[stacey bo bacey]

Not many people abandon the military. Most server their time and get out. We need some kind of deterrent and prison is an effective one. Also, the money being spent on their prison sentences is comming from the military's budget. Thus no real extra money is being spent.

How so?

Again, we have the choice of spending billions on people who leave after their training is finished, or we spend a few hundred thousand over several years on a few who abandon their posts. It is not a hard choice.

OR they just don't go to prison at all, which is still my vote.

 

[Apex]

How so?

The military has prisons of its own.

OR they just don't go to prison at all, which is still my vote.

You then lose the deterrent and will have everyone who wishes to leave, for what ever reason, doing so. This option only results in the spending of billions. If you can come up with an option that does not result in the bankruptcy of the entire nation, I would love to hear it.

 

[Storm]

OK, Apex. It seems, correct me if I'm wrong, that you believe there are no circumstances under which desertion is acceptable. Thanks for putting up with the barrage of questions.

However, you also make some allowance for conscientious objection when pressed into service.

Leaving aside the issue of volunteerism, I would think desertion does less damage than refusal to perform. Does that make sense?

Also, I have to say that your strictness on this issue strikes me as virtual slavery. I do not agree that agreeing to serve in a just capacity equals a moral obligation to violate one's conscience.

 

[linwood]

I do not agree that agreeing to serve in a just capacity equals a moral obligation to violate one's conscience.

Well said.

 

[Storm]

Also, Apex, I have to wonder, how far do you take it? Is a soldier compelled to follow orders that violate his conscience? How about illegal orders?

 

[stacey bo bacey]

The military has prisons of its own.

And they would absolutely be housed there?

And I have a hard time believing the military pays for its own prison. I actually have no idea about this, but I don't think that's right. Is there a link or something you can give me?

You then lose the deterrent and will have everyone who wishes to leave, for what ever reason, doing so. This option only results in the spending of billions. If you can come up with an option that does not result in the bankruptcy of the entire nation, I would love to hear it.

They should all have to live in Kansas til they croak.

 

[McBell]

If you believed the same, would you be more charitable to deserters from Iraq?

Not in the least.

 

[zippythepinhead]

See, now there's a small difficulty here.

If your employer is making the company you work for do something, which you disagree about the legality of (ugh... bad sentence phrasing, I know.. jsut can't think of any other way to say it xD), is it illegally breaking your contract if you quit without 2 weeks notice?

By my understanding, a contract that requires you to do a job that you later find to be illegal, voids your obligation to do said job.

But the Uniform Code of Military Justice is not civilian law. Contracts are if you sign, you follow orders, until discharged or service completed. That is pretty much it. None of this: I disagree with the decision former President Bush made and so now I will run away.

He has all kinds of LEGAL ways he could have been discharged. He could have filed as a consciensous objector, he could have filed hardship, he could have even tried to be a disciplinary problem. But desertion? The act of a coward. Make him a stranger in his native land. Revoke his citizenship for good. Then on top of that a dishonorable discharge and he can roam Europe anytime he wants. If he wants to come to the States he has to apply for a visa just like a foreign national.

Let the punishment fit the crime. This is military law and it has its own rules. If we had the military run like our civilian court system it would fall apart. The military exists for one reason: TO MAKE or DEFEND against WAR. It isn't there so young men and women looking for college money can get $20 K for college and a life time of free health care at the VA. So before anyone joins, they need to know the basics.

If I sign, unless otherwise released by the military, I do the service time. End of statement.:knight:

Now I think about it he could of said he liked his bunking buddies more than just comrades at arms

 

[Smoke]

Deutschland*

Danke schön.

I doubt that there's anyone who really believes that it's always immoral for soldiers to refuse to follow orders. Sometimes, in fact, refusing to follow orders is the only ethical option.

In my view, the guilty parties here, and the real traitors, are those who promoted, launched and pursued an illegal and immoral war based on false evidence. In the face of such a war, there's nothing unethical about desertion.

My great-grandfather deserted the army in time of war, and I think he did the right thing.

 

[zippythepinhead]

Danke schön.

I doubt that there's anyone who really believes that it's always immoral for soldiers to refuse to follow orders. Sometimes, in fact, refusing to follow orders is the only ethical option.

In my view, the guilty parties here, and the real traitors, are those who promoted, launched and pursued an illegal and immoral war based on false evidence. In the face of such a war, there's nothing unethical about desertion.

My great-grandfather deserted the army in time of war, and I think he did the right thing.

Only history can judge his actions. But he is lucky he wasn't shot.