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Featured "Upon this rock", which rock?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by cOLTER, Jun 21, 2022.

  1. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Its an age old debate but in my opinion Peter wasn't the "rock". Since the NT books were written well into Pauls heavy influence on recollections and new believers, the exchange often quoted between Jesus and the apostles at Caesarea Philippi Matthew 16:13-20 may not have been accurately recalled anyway. That is to say that the writing (and subsequent editing) of the Gospels was done with a Pauline bias.

    The "Rock" in context was the fact that the Father revealed to the apostles the identity of the Son. Faith in the Father was the central theme of the original Gospel. Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”


    The rock wasn't fallible Peter, it was the FAITH in the Father that Jesus had been preaching for 3+ years before being killed due to the original, pre-cross Gospel!


    It was really Peter on the day of Pentecost who began to preach about the latest and most spectacular of all the miracles associated with Jesus, returning from death on his own volition as he said he could and would; the resurrection of Jesus. It was Peter who began the new Gospel about Jesus which replaced the original Gospel of Jesus, the "good news" about the Father, that we are ALL sons and daughters of the living God. That God is personal to each one of us, not a national God and certainly not for an especially chosen few. "Christ and him crucified" replaced Jesus Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven.


    Paul was a student of Peter. Paul never having known Jesus expanded upon the ideas of Peter and further developed the new Gospel into a new religion about Jesus. Paul's atonement doctrine was appealing to the Pagan religions considering that they already had similar beliefs. Plus the atonement doctrine had the effect of ending Temple sacrifices for the newly emerging Christian church.


    So Paul's Gospel, Christianity is really a version of Peters Gospel that was a version of Jesus' Gospel, The Kingdom of Heaven.



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  2. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    I'm not sure if you realize it, but "Peter" means "rock."

    This passage is all about wordplay. It becomes nonsense if Peter isn't "the rock."
     
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  3. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Im aware of Peters nickname. Considering that impulsive Peter would subsequently deny Jesus 3 times the night of his arrest, the theory that Jesus was referring to Peter when he said rock may have been a convenient word play on behalf of those who subsequently recalled the exchange.


    Kephas is a Greek transliteration of the Aramaic name כאפא (Kepha, pronounced kee-phah) meaning "stone."

    And I tell you, that you are Kepha, and upon this rock (kepha) I will build my assembly. (Matthew 16:18 from the Pe****ta, a 4th Century Aramaic New Testament)
     
  4. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    How do you know that?
     
  5. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    So you think that this was just a coincidence?

    ... and by extension, an allusion to Psalms 118:22?
     
  6. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Well, In the parable of the absent landlord Matthew 21:33-46 the stone was Jesus.

    Coincidence? Yes. Sometimes people read too much into things, however the Church at Rome sure likes the traditional play on words.
     
  7. KW

    KW Well-Known Member

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    Why do you think Jesus changed Simon's name to Rock?
     
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  8. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Saul would have heard about Peters preaching from the day of Pentecost. Paul was present in Jerusalem at the time.


    Acts 8-14
    Contemporary English Version

    8 1-2 Saul approved the stoning of Stephen. Some faithful followers of the Lord buried Stephen and mourned very much for him.

    Saul Makes Trouble for the Church
    At that time the church in Jerusalem suffered terribly. All of the Lord's followers, except the apostles, were scattered everywhere in Judea and Samaria. 3 Saul started making a lot of trouble for the church. He went from house to house, arresting men and women and putting them in jail.
     
  9. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Because of his faith?
     
  10. KW

    KW Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't make sense.

    He addressed him personally.

    17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Cephas, and on this Cephas I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
     
  11. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    It says upon this rock, not upon this Peter. You asked for speculation about why Jesus nicknamed Peter, I can only assume it was his determined faith, not becuse Jesus thought that the church at Rome would burry Peter beneath it.
     
  12. KW

    KW Well-Known Member

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    You are Cephas and upon THIS Cephas

    You are replacing your own opinion for what Jesus actually said so you can justify rejecting his Church. Jesus only started one Church. He chose leaders for this Church and gave them his authority to teach, make rules, and forgive sins.
     
  13. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Actually its you who is replacing the term rock with the nickname Peter. Which version of the Bible replaces the term rock with Peters nickname?

    Jesus was the founder of the Kingdom of Heaven, his followers started an intuitional church.
     
  14. KW

    KW Well-Known Member

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    Young’s literal translation for one.

    Jesus didn’t
    Jesus didn’t speak Greek or English, he spoke Aramaic and that is what he said.

    Jesus instituted the church.

    Matt 18:17

    If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
     
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Why would Jesus start out with "Thou are Peter..." since Peter and the others already knew that Jesus had already given him a new name?

    IOW, I think it's obvious that Jesus gave Peter his new name for a reason and then he uses a play in words to draw the parallel.
     
  16. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    You didn't answer my question, which translation of the Bible substitutes Peter for rock?

    Jesus spoke Aramaic, the Aramaic Bible says "And I tell you, that you are Kepha, and upon this rock I will build my assembly." Proper name for Simons nickname Peter and then rock.
     
  17. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    The speculation might be obvious to Catholics but its not so obvious to others. In the parable of the absent landowner its quite apparent that the "stone" that Jesus referred to was himself.
     
  18. KW

    KW Well-Known Member

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    Yes I Did. Young’s Literal Translation

    Jesus named Simon Cephas.

    The Aramaic bible is in Aramaic.
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    "Kephas" can mean either "stone" or "rock" as Aramaic doesn't differentiate between the two. Jesus, otoh, is more viewed as the "cornerstone", which also is used in the Gospel.

    Also, not only is it likely to be Jesus' play on words, but also Peter has a special designation within the Gospel.

    And finally, this isn't just a Catholic thingy.
     
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  20. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    This is what Youngs literal translation says "18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;"
     
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