Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Please, explain the metaphorical meaning of this statement because I can't help thinking of Cannibalism
if it must be taken in literal terms.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of man, you have no life in you
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
Please, explain the metaphorical meaning of this statement because I can't help thinking of Cannibalism
if it must be taken in literal terms.
I remember a young priest insisting during his homily, that to understand the body and blood in a literalist since, we 'would be cannibals.' Much of the problem comes down to how we understand symbols. John's gospel does not refer to miracles for their own sake, he refers to them as signs of a greater reality. The miracle of the man born blind was not his physical eyesight, but the reality of his insight into who Jesus was. The consecrated bread and wine does not only point to something greater, it is at the same time what it signifies, body, blood, soul and divinity through the Holy Spirit. The Council of Trent defended the reality with what was considered an 'apt' explanation of 'how'. It is belief in the 'Real Presence' that is dogmatized, not Aristotle.
JohnAmes
Member
The only thing I want to mention is the actual nature of the Passover sacrifice in the Old Testament.If I am not mistaken, and if possible a hebrew member could comment, the Passover doesn't forgive sins in the Old Testament. Period. It was not sin forgiving.
If it weren't for the Old Testament, Hebrew religion, Jesus would have no validity. His entire religious foundation is a piggy back on the Torah, Hebrew tradition. Jesus' only claim of any religious nature, is the fact he was a Hebrew believer.
If passover doesn't forgive sins in Hebrew Judaism, why does it in Christianity?
What about the Day of Atonement? That does forgives sins.
Passover doesn't. It just doesn't forgive sins.
Not trying to offend anyone, we all have insights into scripture and do our best to understand.
The more I read scriptures as I get older, the more suspect Jesus is......
If it weren't for the Old Testament, Hebrew religion, Jesus would have no validity. His entire religious foundation is a piggy back on the Torah, Hebrew tradition. Jesus' only claim of any religious nature, is the fact he was a Hebrew believer.
If passover doesn't forgive sins in Hebrew Judaism, why does it in Christianity?
What about the Day of Atonement? That does forgives sins.
Passover doesn't. It just doesn't forgive sins.
Not trying to offend anyone, we all have insights into scripture and do our best to understand.
The more I read scriptures as I get older, the more suspect Jesus is......
JohnAmes
Member
Yes I understand. My point is, Jesus claimed Passover (his sacrifice) forgave sins for all.
Regarding the Passover;
Exodus12:26 "And when your children ask you, ‘What does this ceremony mean to you?’ 27 then tell them, ‘It is the Passover sacrifice to the Lord, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians.’”
It did not forgive sins.....never had, never will
regarding day of atonement;
Leviticus 16:30" because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins."
Why didn't Jesus claim to be a sacrifice of the day of atonement?
Jesus says the Passover is for sin forgiveness and it isn't.
Again, ultimately, if Jesus wasn't Hebrew Jewish in the first place, he would have no theological or divine claims at all. His message relies 100% percent on Hebrew Scripture.
And Yes, the largest religion in the world is Christianity, although I have a different opinion
most people on earth believe Jesus is messiah. I cannot expect to change those peoples minds.
Regarding the Passover;
Exodus12:26 "And when your children ask you, ‘What does this ceremony mean to you?’ 27 then tell them, ‘It is the Passover sacrifice to the Lord, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians.’”
It did not forgive sins.....never had, never will
regarding day of atonement;
Leviticus 16:30" because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins."
Why didn't Jesus claim to be a sacrifice of the day of atonement?
Jesus says the Passover is for sin forgiveness and it isn't.
Again, ultimately, if Jesus wasn't Hebrew Jewish in the first place, he would have no theological or divine claims at all. His message relies 100% percent on Hebrew Scripture.
And Yes, the largest religion in the world is Christianity, although I have a different opinion
most people on earth believe Jesus is messiah. I cannot expect to change those peoples minds.
Is this claim made by the historical Jesus or a post Easter understanding made by the Apostles in their attempt to answer the question, why.
edit to add
In the light of Easter faith the early Christians sought to understand the enigma of Jesus' death with every possible concept and category available to them, The earliest Christian theology understood Jesus' death as the fate of a prophet. The early passion narratives, before the Gospels, depict His passion by appropriating and applying to Jesus the psalms about a suffering just person and the gospels see it as the fulfillment of the prophecy of the suffering servant. There is the beginning of a development toward an understanding of Jesus' death as salvific.
The early Christians moved on from death as the fate of a prophet. Paul borrows traditional elements from Jewish cultic practice and juridical thought, also from Hellenistic mystery religions in explaining the meaning of Jesus' death. Comparing Paul and John, Paul applies his own theology of justification in his understanding of redemption and the saving event of Jesus' D/R, it is central to Paul. The significance of the D/R for John the essential salvation event is in the sending of the Son into the world and in his return to the Father, Jesus death believed to be an important stage in the exaltation of the Son of Man(Jn 3:13-14).
Last edited:
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Forgiveness of sins comes only with repentance and the determination to return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) There is not a single kind of festival that grants forgiveness of sins. I do not understand what's the problem with Jesus which makes you suspect of him as you read the scriptures.
Regarding your question above "why passover doesn't forgive sins in Judaism when it does in Christianity," It simply doesn't and, you cannot compare Judaism with Christianity. They are two different religions.
Last edited:
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
You did not answer my question. Don't you think that, if we take the drinking of the blood and eating of the flesh of Jesus literally, we could be dealing here with cannibalism?
Of course I did. that to understand the body and blood in a literalist since, we 'would be cannibals.'
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Okay, so what's the answer?
Spiderman
Veteran Member
It isn't the same thing as cannibalism because the belief is that it is the living flesh of God, not the dead flesh of a human being...it is a way that God lives within people...intimacy.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Oh! Cannibalism of God! Besides, Jesus said in John 4:24 that God is a Spirit and spirits to have flesh, they must be corporeal and, God is incorporeal. You guys never cease amazing me! Why don't you read the NT first before you say such a nonsense?
Spiderman
Veteran Member
The New Testament is where it cometh from genius! Take it up with Jesus!
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
I have already taken up with Jesus and found out that he was a Jew and, Jews do not respond to cannibalism as part of the religion. What you are saying must be metaphorical; it can't be literal. If you agree that's metaphorical, please explain what the ritual points to.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Its all metaphors, of course you cannot eat the body of Jesus.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Yes, its just too silly for words to take this all literal.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
The first time Jesus lost followers it was over this teaching. He never called them back to explain differently.
Eating a human being is cannibalism. Eating God is something different. There was never a rule against eating God. Lol
The word became flesh and dwelt among us.
Last edited by a moderator:
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Isn't that true Psychoslice! Christians never cease amazing me! Really some thing!
How can one eat a Spirit? I think the closest, one could do was to breathe in a spirit.
JohnAmes
Member
"Forgiveness of sins comes only with repentance and the determination to return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) There is not a single kind of festival that grants forgiveness of sins."
I disagree, I know of two festivals. The Day of Atonement, and the Water of Cleansing.
The Torah says specifically these two commands, laws actually, forgive sins.
So when God says in the Torah, keep my commands and laws, he is referring commands and laws such as The Water of Cleansing and the Day of Atonement. They were laws, they had to be celebrated for these reasons.
And again, the only reason Jesus is credible was that he claimed to be Jewish-Hebrew. And I think we can all agree that Christianity is a piggy-back on Judaism. If Christianity isn't Jewish-Hebrew, it is pagan.
So why does Jesus lie, and say a ritual that doesn't forgive sins in the Torah, if you drink his blood, forgives sins.
Unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of man, you have no life in you
Passover doesn't forgive sins.
Eating Blood Forbidden
Leviticus 17:10 “‘I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.[c]
Jesus is a lawbreaker.
I disagree, I know of two festivals. The Day of Atonement, and the Water of Cleansing.
The Torah says specifically these two commands, laws actually, forgive sins.
So when God says in the Torah, keep my commands and laws, he is referring commands and laws such as The Water of Cleansing and the Day of Atonement. They were laws, they had to be celebrated for these reasons.
And again, the only reason Jesus is credible was that he claimed to be Jewish-Hebrew. And I think we can all agree that Christianity is a piggy-back on Judaism. If Christianity isn't Jewish-Hebrew, it is pagan.
So why does Jesus lie, and say a ritual that doesn't forgive sins in the Torah, if you drink his blood, forgives sins.
Unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of man, you have no life in you
Passover doesn't forgive sins.
Eating Blood Forbidden
Leviticus 17:10 “‘I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.[c]
Jesus is a lawbreaker.