Universe Vs Multiverse!

[Mock Turtle]

Yea of course I enjoy create an wild ventured discovery group and go around the world for discovery haha

Bon voyage.

 

[firedragon]

I don't call Atheists the fool because maybe they are ignorant people and the Facts/Truths haven't been received for them.

Well,
The arrogant fool scientists claim that they have discovered/arrived at the edges of the cosmos!
Take a while you see that the cosmos of the scientists of today compared with the Multiverse that Shi'a-Islam has introduced are such as an atom with the Galaxy!!!

If you have any opposite saying/reasoning, then bring!

Arrogant fool scientists? Seriously brother, are you serious? Hold on. Now you are a Muslim right? Do you follow the Qur'an? Read these verses and question yourself first. Read Qur'an 41:34 first.

Practice goodness against your enemy

Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend. - Quran 41:34

Do not be arrogant or insolent

And do not turn your cheek arrogantly from people, nor shall you roam the earth insolently. For God does not love the arrogant show off. - Quran 31:18

Humility and wisdom

And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say: ‘Peace. - Quran 25:63

Don’t insult those of other religions. Do not play God.

And do not insult those who call on other than God, lest they insult God out of ignorance. And We have similarly adorned for every nation their works; then to their Lord is their return and He will inform them of what they had done. - Quran 6:108

Do not mock others

O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.” - Quran 49:11

Do not practice suspicion and backbiting

O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite. Would any of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful. - Quran 49:12


These scientists who proposed the Multiverse theory did not claim it is absolute fact. They did two tests and one gave positive results but the latter test gave negative results thus the Multiverse theory as I know so far has not been proven. But that being said, they are not arrogant fools mate. They are coming up with a hypothesis hoping to solve an existing problem of the concept of the universe and then they are testing the hypothesis for falsification. Brother, you have a seriously flawed dogma within you and please use the Quran to open your eyes and I say that because you say you are a Muslim.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

Sorry but the Night Journey or al'Isra' wal-Mi'raj, both from the Qur'an (sura al-Isra) and from the Hadith (Sahih al-Bukhari) are nothing more than fairytale.

Its not in the Quran. Just saying Masjidul haram illa masjidul aksa does not mean in linguistic terms particular names of masjid which were named as such much later which is inference. Masjidul Haram means "restricted Mosque/temple" and Masjidul Akka means "a distant or a mosque/temple very far away".

The whole story of this Night Journey is fake, invented and embellished. It has been copied and adapted from the 2nd book of Enoch, who also ascended to the heavens, 10, not 7 heavens, before reaching the throne of God.

Mate. Seven does not mean the number seven. I will cut and paste from an earlier post of mine for your to just read up.

Another example would be to say seven in Arabic. Yes it means “seven” when you say “Saba” (with an ain) but what is communicated is not the number seven. Lets say we say “I done this dozens of times” it means someone has done it many times. I would say “buy a dozen” I am not really saying to buy exactly 12 in number but just to get a bunch. Not too much, not one or two, but enough. Like when you say “I told you a million times” I am not saying I exactly said this same thing 1,000,000 times but just that I have said it many times. But the translation would read “seven”. If you don’t translate it that way it seems dishonest.

There are millions of examples like this, and with that statement I don’t mean exactly 1,000,000, I simply mean there are many.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I don't call Atheists the fool because maybe they are ignorant people and the Facts/Truths haven't been received for them.

Well,
The arrogant fool scientists claim that they have discovered/arrived at the edges of the cosmos!
Take a while you see that the cosmos of the scientists of today compared with the Multiverse that Shi'a-Islam has introduced are such as an atom with the Galaxy!!!

If you have any opposite saying/reasoning, then bring!

I'd recommend learning English a bit better before attempting to engage in debates with fluent English speakers on scientific topics that require a working knowledge of vocabulary and grammar.

 

[Valjean]

Me, I'm interested in the opinions of those from non-English speaking regions. I appreciate his efforts, even if it does take some puzzling out.

 

[gnostic]

Mate. Seven does not mean the number seven. I will cut and paste from an earlier post of mine for your to just read up.

Another example would be to say seven in Arabic. Yes it means “seven” when you say “Saba” (with an ain) but what is communicated is not the number seven. Lets say we say “I done this dozens of times” it means someone has done it many times. I would say “buy a dozen” I am not really saying to buy exactly 12 in number but just to get a bunch. Not too much, not one or two, but enough. Like when you say “I told you a million times” I am not saying I exactly said this same thing 1,000,000 times but just that I have said it many times. But the translation would read “seven”. If you don’t translate it that way it seems dishonest.

There are millions of examples like this, and with that statement I don’t mean exactly 1,000,000, I simply mean there are many.

Really, firedragon? Do you really think I care about numbers?

I don’t care with vocabulary on numbers...and I don’t care if the numbers of heavens were 3, 7, 10, 1000, a million or infinite numbers.

That was never really my points in my reply to Yusef.

My points were that Muslims tried to make Islam better than every other religions, the Qur’an better scripture than every other scriptures, and Muhammad better prophet than every other prophets.

It is like manhood size comparison with Muslims. It is petty, it’s egotistic, it’s arrogant.

Moses is the lawgiver, so Muhammad have to be bigger lawgiver than Moses.

Jesus offered salvation and the afterlife, so Muhammad have to out-save Jesus.

Moses and Joshua won some battles, Muhammad have to out-victory both.

Prophets revealed prophecies, so Muhammad must prophecise all other prophets combined.

Moses and Jesus were humble men, so Muhammad must out-humble them in this department.

Enoch ascents to heavens and stood before God...oh, we can’t have that. Muhammad must also ascend, on flying donkey-like steed.

Islam is like a copycat religion, where religion, scripture and prophet must out-perform everything and everyone else.

More recent arguments, is Muslims today, trying to have the Qur’an out-science Natural Science, by quoting some over-simplified verses, taking the Quranic passages out-of-context.

Isn’t this main purpose for Yusef creating this thread? A competition between religion and science?

 

[firedragon]

Really, firedragon? Do you really think I care about numbers?

You cared enough to say "7 sky's" or whatever. If you don't care, leave it mate. Thats fine.

Rest of it is just rhetoric. So there is no point in responding to just rhetoric.

Cheers.

 

[Yusef]

Arrogant fool scientists? Seriously brother, are you serious? Hold on. Now you are a Muslim right? Do you follow the Qur'an? Read these verses and question yourself first. Read Qur'an 41:34 first.

Practice goodness against your enemy

Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend. - Quran 41:34

Do not be arrogant or insolent

And do not turn your cheek arrogantly from people, nor shall you roam the earth insolently. For God does not love the arrogant show off. - Quran 31:18

Humility and wisdom

And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say: ‘Peace. - Quran 25:63

Don’t insult those of other religions. Do not play God.

And do not insult those who call on other than God, lest they insult God out of ignorance. And We have similarly adorned for every nation their works; then to their Lord is their return and He will inform them of what they had done. - Quran 6:108

Do not mock others

O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.” - Quran 49:11

Do not practice suspicion and backbiting

O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite. Would any of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful. - Quran 49:12


These scientists who proposed the Multiverse theory did not claim it is absolute fact. They did two tests and one gave positive results but the latter test gave negative results thus the Multiverse theory as I know so far has not been proven. But that being said, they are not arrogant fools mate. They are coming up with a hypothesis hoping to solve an existing problem of the concept of the universe and then they are testing the hypothesis for falsification. Brother, you have a seriously flawed dogma within you and please use the Quran to open your eyes and I say that because you say you are a Muslim.

Peace.

Nope,
As the guys mentioned,
My English is weak
Plus, the Religious texts are from ancient books and ancient grammars
Plusk, my first language is right to left
Plustik, my keyboard is auto spelling

And about the sentence: "i don't call the atheists the fools" i meant
I don't say 'Fools' about the atheists!
Because maybe they haven't ever met the Truths!
And if meet, maybe change their own way!

 

[Yusef]

Why do you say scientists are arrogant, and what is it you think they all claim?

bcz they say with certain that "We have arrived near edges of the cosmos and haven't seen any god! and all of cosmos is under our telescopes!"
I called they fools that this cosmos that they claim arrived in, this is just the 3rd or 4th Earth!!!
And the 4th earth compared with the 5th is such as a finger ring has been fallen down on a great desert!!
Means the same comparison between the earth and the milky way galaxy!
And the 5th within the 6th up to the 7th and the rooster, fish, rock, etc....
All are within the First heaven!!!
And all the 12000 universes, each one of them is smaller than an atom versus the Throne of God The Almighty The Greatest!

Imagine the Scientists discover that inside of an atom there are a complex of galaxies and each one of those galaxies have had an Earth and scientists of those earth think they have discovered whole the cosmos!!!

 

[gnostic]

Nope,
As the guys mentioned,
My English is weak
Plus, the Religious texts are from ancient books and ancient grammars
Plusk, my first language is right to left
Plustik, my keyboard is auto spelling

And about the sentence: "i don't call the atheists the fools" i meant
I don't say 'Fools' about the atheists!
Because maybe they haven't ever met the Truths!
And if meet, maybe change their own way!

You said “scientists” are fools in your first post, but now you are saying “atheists” are fools.

So it clear to me you are falsely associating scientists with atheists.

Scientists are people who work in some areas of science. It is a job or career move.

A person who work as scientist, would study in a specific scientific field get qualification in that field, and then find work in that field or something related to that field.

Being an atheist, agnostic or theist, is not a job or career choice, Yusef.

People who follow theism, atheism, agnosticism or any other religious “-ism” is about people’s personal belief regarding to the question of existence or nonexistence of god or gods.

Theism, atheism and whatever other -ism out there, have nothing to do with science.

So atheism isn’t equal to science.

 

[Yusef]

Sorry but the Night Journey or al'Isra' wal-Mi'raj, both from the Qur'an (sura al-Isra) and from the Hadith (Sahih al-Bukhari) are nothing more than fairytale.

From what I understand about al-Isra passage about travelling from the mosque in Mecca to al-Masjid al-Aqsa, translated to the "Furthest Mosque", which have been interpreted since the early 8th century as Mosque in Jerusalem.

The biggest problems with this:

1. Muhammad has never been to Jerusalem.
2. There was never a mosque in Jerusalem, during Muhammad's lifetime.

Construction of the mosque in Jerusalem did start construction until very late 7th century, during Abd al-Malik's reign and completed in al-Walid in 705 CE. The person who made this interpretation was a biographer Ibn Ishaq.

So, the mosque never existed until it was completed in 705 CE.

Another thing, is that the direct distance between Mecca and Jerusalem is 1238 km; but there are no direct route, so the distance is even greater.

There are no such mean of transport to travel that distance, in the single night.

According to this hadith, Gabriel brought the steed no bigger than a mule, called Buraq to travel there. The Qur'an make no mention of any steed, and even Gabriel isn't mention in this sura or chapter.

The al-Mi'raq part of this fairytale is Muhammad ascension to 7 heavens, meeting prophets and even God himself before the Throne of God is only narrated in the hadith, not in the Qur'an.

The whole story of this Night Journey is fake, invented and embellished. It has been copied and adapted from the 2nd book of Enoch, who also ascended to the heavens, 10, not 7 heavens, before reaching the throne of God.

Enoch was one of the ancestors of Noah, Noah's great grandfather. He was supposed taken to heavens by 2 angels, and Enoch supposedly became the "Scribe of God", supposedly writing about the creation and the prophecy of the Flood.

The story of Muhammad's ascent to heaven is no more believable than that of Enoch, but at least, 2 Enoch was more original. Muhammad is just a copycat, to glorify Muhammad.

But the mortals' ascent to heavens didn't originate from any Abrahamic religions.

The earliest that I can think of, is the Epic of Etana. A clay tablet was found dated to some time in the 1st half of the 2nd millennia BCE (between 1895 and 1595 BCE), written in Old Babylonian.

I won’t say anything more about Etana (because I know that Muslims have the tendencies to ignore or hate Sumerian and Babylonian cultures and pagan religions), other than that Etana flew to heavens and met the gods, flying on the back of a large eagle. At least, Etana’s story the eagle naturally have wings, steeds, like horses, donkeys and mules don’t have wings, so impossible creatures.

My points that all mortals ascent to heavens to meet the god/gods, are myths, including the one about Muhammad.

First of all we are Shi'a
Take a while you referred to Sunnis sources!

Shi'a Hadith
"...what about the Mosque al-Aqsa in the Qur'an has been mentioned!?
- The real Masjid al-Aqsa[Mosque of Jerusalem] has been gone in the 4th heaven and this Masjid al-Aqsa that you see, it's rank is lesser than the mosque of Kufa"

 

[Yusef]

Bon voyage.

I wanna sell a minivoos and go around of my country if you want can come here to goinig to go to travel haha
In my country the word Minibus is called Miniboos,
And my city call 'minivoos'
Also in the Persian we say Tavoos to the Peacock
But in my city call 'Taboos'
And Uzbeks call 'Taboogh'
Also we say Boogh to the Horn

See how much you members make me tired to teach you Esfahani, and you aren't patients about my English

 

[gnostic]

You cared enough to say "7 sky's" or whatever. If you don't care, leave it mate. Thats fine.

Look, firedragon. I didn’t bring up Muhammad’s ascent to heavens, Yusef did, so I was replying to him how this is a made up story.

No, I merely pointed out what some Muslims believe about this story. The night journey in the Hadith described Muhammad meeting different past prophets in different levels of heavens in the Mi’raq.

In one of Paul’s letters (I think it is a passage in Corinthians) referred to 3 heavens. While the second book of Enoch described ascent to 10 heavens before meeting god.

But the numbers of heavens aren’t really what I am talking about, firedragon. What I am saying is that Muslims have created their own version of Enoch’s story about Muhammad.

Both are stories, 2 Enoch and Mi’raq, are just that - STORIES.

If you recall, Yusef believe that he believe the Mi’raq happened to Muhammad, for real, that he bodily went to Heavens, not a vision.

Do you agree with Yusef? Was Muhammad really in heavens or was it a vision? Do you believe in the Mi’raq, that it really happened?

 

[Yusef]

You said “scientists” are fools in your first post, but now you are saying “atheists” are fools.

So it clear to me you are falsely associating scientists with atheists.

Scientists are people who work in some areas of science. It is a job or career move.

A person who work as scientist, would study in a specific scientific field get qualification in that field, and then find work in that field or something related to that field.

Being an atheist, agnostic or theist, is not a job or career choice, Yusef.

People who follow theism, atheism, agnosticism or any other religious “-ism” is about people’s personal belief regarding to the question of existence or nonexistence of god or gods.

Theism, atheism and whatever other -ism out there, have nothing to do with science.

So atheism isn’t equal to science.

See,
If you go to the hospital and the doctor tells you you are ill,
Dose it make you sad!??

If he tells you eating tablet,
Does it tell you preaching!???

The word 'Ahmaq[Fool]' is not an insulating!
It's an illness!
Source: Logic Vs Foolishness

If I tell you, let your device's battery be drained THEN connect that to the charger; that that makes your battery the more lifetime;

Is it preaching!???

I meant those groups of those fool scientists!
I didn't mean all the Scientists are fools!!

Wait,
Those fools that have signs of the illness of Foolishness,
Also those fools that if one says preaching to them,
Exactly these are about the same example i brought the above about lifetimes of batteries!

 

[gnostic]

See,
If you go to the hospital and the doctor tells you you are ill,
Dose it make you sad!??

If he tells you eating tablet,
Does it tell you preaching!???

The word 'Ahmaq[Fool]' is not an insulating!
It's an illness!
Source: Logic Vs Foolishness

If I tell you, let your device's battery be drained THEN connect that to the charger; that that makes your battery the more lifetime;

Is it preaching!???

I meant those groups of those fool scientists!
I didn't mean all the Scientists are fools!!

Wait,
Those fools that have signs of the illness of Foolishness,
Also those fools that if one says preaching to them,
Exactly these are about the same example i brought the above about lifetimes of batteries!

Seriously, I don’t get what you are saying, and what does any of that, got to do with my post.

 

[firedragon]

Nope,
As the guys mentioned,
My English is weak
Plus, the Religious texts are from ancient books and ancient grammars
Plusk, my first language is right to left
Plustik, my keyboard is auto spelling

And about the sentence: "i don't call the atheists the fools" i meant
I don't say 'Fools' about the atheists!
Because maybe they haven't ever met the Truths!
And if meet, maybe change their own way!

Brother. I understand that your first language may not be English. But you will be proficient in another language other English speakers have no clue about. Also in the field of theology English is just a protocol, but understanding semitic languages or a language similar to Sanskrit or Pali have a 1000 times greater value.

Thats not the issue.

Dont call these atheistic scientists as arrogant fools. Thats it.

By the way you said your language is from right to left. I figure its either Arabic or Hebrew?

 

[firedragon]

Look, firedragon. I didn’t bring up Muhammad’s ascent to heavens, Yusef did, so I was replying to him how this is a made up story.

No, I merely pointed out what some Muslims believe about this story. The night journey in the Hadith described Muhammad meeting different past prophets in different levels of heavens in the Mi’raq.

In one of Paul’s letters (I think it is a passage in Corinthians) referred to 3 heavens. While the second book of Enoch described ascent to 10 heavens before meeting god.

But the numbers of heavens aren’t really what I am talking about, firedragon. What I am saying is that Muslims have created their own version of Enoch’s story about Muhammad.

Both are stories, 2 Enoch and Mi’raq, are just that - STORIES.

If you recall, Yusef believe that he believe the Mi’raq happened to Muhammad, for real, that he bodily went to Heavens, not a vision.

Do you agree with Yusef? Was Muhammad really in heavens or was it a vision? Do you believe in the Mi’raq, that it really happened?

All that is good.

See, you can actually have a little bit of humility to understand a linguistic perspective when someone explains something. Thats it. You completely ignored what I said mate. You see, out of spite or remorse if we completely ignore something someone says absolutely we may miss something important, and I can tell you that you absolutely did.

By the way, I don't believe the Mi'raj ever happened. I don't believe Muhammed went and negotiated with God. None of them are in the Quran.

All I said was 7 heavens does not mean the number seven. Maybe if you have a little bit of patience you can understand and read that post once more.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I wanna sell a minivoos and go around of my country if you want can come here to goinig to go to travel haha
In my country the word Minibus is called Miniboos,
And my city call 'minivoos'
Also in the Persian we say Tavoos to the Peacock
But in my city call 'Taboos'
And Uzbeks call 'Taboogh'
Also we say Boogh to the Horn

See how much you members make me tired to teach you Esfahani, and you aren't patients about my English

Well I don't think most of us here would ridicule anyone for their lack of English - I wouldn't - but I might if I thought some statement was silly or objectionable - like calling some ignorant or arrogant simply because they fail to agree with your particular beliefs. If one chooses to come on a mainly English language forum one should expect discussions to take place knowing that most will have English as their first language or at least have a good understanding of such. Sure makes conversations flow better.

 

[Valjean]

bcz they say with certain that "We have arrived near edges of the cosmos and haven't seen any god! and all of cosmos is under our telescopes!"

I haven't heard any scientists saying this. I have heard astronomers remarking on our expanding abilities to visualize deeper into the universe, or further back in time, but that's not arrogance, it's a simple statement of fact. Knowledge of facts is not arrogance.

Science says it has no evidence of God. This is not arrogance, it is a truth.
Science neither looks for nor expects to find a god. It is not anti-god, it's just that science cannot research things that are not tangible, measurable, testable and predictable.
Researching God is simply not what science does. It's not science's job. We can't criticize science for not commenting on God.

I called they fools that this cosmos that they claim arrived in, this is just the 3rd or 4th Earth!!!

I don't understand what you mean by "arrived in," and I don't understand what you mean by a 3rd and 4th Earth. This sounds like a claim that this 3rd planet from the Sun has been destroyed and re-formed several times. Not only is there no evidence for this, it is a thing that definitely would have left tangible evidence.
Why do you claim this, and what is this about a ring?

And the 4th earth compared with the 5th is such as a finger ring has been fallen down on a great desert

What?! There were five of them? When did these exist? When and how were they formed and destroyed? When and how were new planets formed? Evidence, please.

Means the same comparison between the earth and the milky way galaxy!
And the 5th within the 6th up to the 7th and the rooster, fish, rock, etc....

Earth is located within a galaxy. I don't understand the comparison

All are within the First heaven!!!

What is Heaven? Where is it? How big is it? What qualities does it have? What journals have published studies of it that I could read?

And all the 12000 universes, each one of them is smaller than an atom versus the Throne of God The Almighty The Greatest!

Same questions.

Yusef, you seem to be making claims with no actual evidence; claims about things no-one's ever detected or studied. Could this not be considered arrogance?

Imagine the Scientists discover that inside of an atom there are a complex of galaxies and each one of those galaxies have had an Earth and scientists of those earth think they have discovered whole the cosmos!!!

A very interesting idea. I imagine scientists would be very interested in such a discovery, but I don't see how this relates to the point of this thread.

If science discovers a Heaven, or a God, or serial planets, it will study them. But it cannot study or comment on things it has not yet discovered.

 

[Yusef]

Well I don't think most of us here would ridicule anyone for their lack of English - I wouldn't - but I might if I thought some statement was silly or objectionable - like calling some ignorant or arrogant simply because they fail to agree with your particular beliefs. If one chooses to come on a mainly English language forum one should expect discussions to take place knowing that most will have English as their first language or at least have a good understanding of such. Sure makes conversations flow better.

Well,
I should discuss things the more important than debate around the religions because of debate around the religions is forbidden here
and everyone should know nothing but their own religion :l

Well,
I change my own method of discussion here and say everything but religions..
Well,
Also in our language to 'kiss' we say 'Boos' haha
What about your country!? Lol