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United States Now Leading the World for COVID-19 Infections

Shad

Veteran Member
I'm agreeing with you on China. Today I read that China is not counting asymptomatic people who test positive. That's dishonest.

Remember China was telling WHO there was no evidence the virus transmitted to humans all while locking up whistle blower doctors saying otherwise on Jan 14 (I think). Now look at where we are. China had been covering up the virus back in Nov/Dec.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I know there are people in this world who are not accepting of mortality, and that we ourselves are an integral part of something called nature. Its really ok. I understand why you were saying that.

There's ethical/moral issues to untangle.

If I take a risk deliberately knowing it will only affect me, that's one thing and my right to do so.

If I take a risk deliberately knowing it might affect others but don't care because it's my right to do whatever I want no matter if it impacts family or society, it's quite something else.

If I take a risk but don't know if it will affect others/society, than I'm ignorant and should consider the possibility.

So yes, accepting mortality is great. But paring that with mindfulness about the impact of my actions is my wish and goal.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Remember China was telling WHO there was no evidence the virus transmitted to humans all while locking up whistle blower doctors saying otherwise on Jan 14 (I think). Now look at where we are. China had been covering up the virus back in Nov/Dec.
And now they blame a foreigner for starting the whole thing. Their fear of losing power is so strong they'll lie and lie to preserve that power
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
There's ethical/moral issues to untangle.

If I take a risk deliberately knowing it will only affect me, that's one thing and my right to do so.

If I take a risk deliberately knowing it might affect others but don't care because it's my right to do whatever I want no matter if it impacts family or society, it's quite something else.

If I take a risk but don't know if it will affect others/society, than I'm ignorant and should consider the possibility.

So yes, accepting mortality is great. But paring that with mindfulness about the impact of my actions is my wish and goal.
I tend to imagine hypothetically/philosophically what it might be like if nobody ever took risk, facing danger and the like at the cost of their own personal safety, and did absolutely nothing aside from hunkering down with everyone else?

Did you ever see water buffalo whenever hungry lions come around?

The ones inside the circle remain safe for the time being and the ones outside the circle willingly take the risk.

It's a paradox when those inside the circle are the one saying don't take chances on dying and begs everybody to come in and join the parameters of 'safety'.

The only trouble I have with that is you will always have that particular ring on the outside that will shed any and all personal regards for preservation and ironically get accused of risking the inner circle by being out there where they could die and open up a weak point leaving the inner circle exposed.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
And now they blame a foreigner for starting the whole thing.

Their fear of losing power is so strong they'll lie and lie to preserve that power


Shame is a huge loss of face in Han culture. Since the CCP has such tight control over media this is how they try to convince their own population that it's not the party's fault. Western media is also doing damage control for China as so many media companies are invested in China. It is a massive market after all.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I tend to imagine hypothetically/philosophically what it might be like if nobody ever took risk, facing danger and the like at the cost of their own personal safety, and did absolutely nothing aside from hunkering down with everyone else?

Did you ever see water buffalo whenever hungry lions come around?

The ones inside the circle remain safe for the time being and the ones outside the circle willingly take the risk.

It's a paradox when those inside the circle are the one saying don't take chances on dying and begs everybody to come in and join the parameters of 'safety'.

The only trouble I have with that is you will always have that particular ring on the outside that will shed any and all personal regards for preservation and ironically get accused of risking the inner circle by being out there where they could die and open up a weak point leaving the inner circle exposed.
Necessary risks are one thing - that's part of life. Unnecessary risks are something else.
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
Zombie mode on... good luck y'all. You dont kill a zombie, it's already dead... pacifism is your greatest defense.
 

Dave Watchman

Active Member
Drat it all...
I was hoping to be the first to blame Trump.
Couldn't even get past the OP. :oops:

From the OP article:

II. The Endgame

Even a perfect response won’t end the pandemic. As long as the virus persists somewhere, there’s a chance that one infected traveler will reignite fresh sparks in countries that have already extinguished their fires.

This is already happening in China, Singapore, and other Asian countries that briefly seemed to have the virus under control.

How the Pandemic Will End
Mainland China re-opened their movie theaters that had been closed earlier at the start of the pandemic.

Last week I read where they had to close them again.

And as soon as Hong Kong relaxed their restrictions, three new clusters of the sickness broke out again.

When Trump closed travel to China in January, he caught flack from it.
  • Around the time the Trump administration announced the travel restriction, Biden said that Trump had a “record of hysteria, xenophobia, and fear-mongering.”

  • Biden used the phrase “xenophobic” in reply to a Trump tweet about limiting entry to travelers from China and in which Trump described the coronavirus as the “Chinese virus.” Biden did not spell out which part of Trump’s tweet was xenophobic.
I read similar criticisms when Trump put travel restrictions on Europe.

I don't think it matters what guy is in charge.

We are at the End Game.

I never heard of a "herd immunity" to the flu virus.

Or to SARS, or to EBOLA, or even to the common cold.

I heard that COVID-19 has mutated 42 or more times since January.

And there are two strains, type L and type S.


That will be a high hurdle of immunity for the herd to attain.

And time is flying.

They got their work cut out for them.

The hour's getting late.

Should I try to do some more?,

25 or 6 to four.

But fear not,
Jesus is coming soon.

Peaceful Sabbath.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm praising him for Making America Great Again

His policies have More Americans Gasping Air. You'll be breathing so much you'll get tired of breathing.

Good. That'll means we will probably be the first out of all this as our immune systems adapt and adjust.

No, that means that more will die than needed to. The curve will have two parts: an initial spike followed by a slower, more prologed period of contagion with lower numbers sick at any given time. The first group will have a higher death rate, since disproportionately more of them will be unable to receive potentially life-saving care.

I wonder why the New York Times & Johns Hopkins have a much higher number than the CDC?

The Trump administration may simply be ordering the CDC to publish false statistics, something he has no control over with the others. We should expect that given what we know of Trump, his values, and his history of removing or altering inconvenient information on government web sites. Trump is a continual liar. It's unwise to forget that.

Here's a good example of how his administration manipulates public information in support of business interests and agains those of ordinary people: https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envi...on-removing-climate-change-epa-online-website

Hmmm...if they were infected overseas, it would then be
questionable to blame Trump for their being infected.

Assuming that we are talking about Americans, why were they overseas? Why are Americans currently quarantined on cruise ships? For every person that would answer that it is because they considered the threat a hoax, that's one you can hang on Trump.

This is not to excuse our lack of preparedness, or mistakes in addressing it, but rather to recognize that this is a learning process. Mistakes will be made, knowledge will be gained, & we damn well better learn from it.

But you'll have to do it with Trump in opposition. Expect him to resist error identification and correction if he thinks it reflects poorly on him, and he will.

And I think it is to excuse lack of preparedness, or more correctly, a refusal to simply say that Trump failed America. No Trump voter wants to say that "yeah, maybe I shouldn't have voted for that man - maybe I damaged my country and fellow Americans."

I don't expect anybody at all to say, "I should have known better than to vote for a person with those values, and maybe the people who realized what a problem this man was earlier than I did weren't deranged after all. Maybe they had a point objecting so strenuously to this degree of immorality and incompetence."

But that's not going to happen. Just comments that deflect from that.

the unanswered (and unanswerable) question is would it have been any different under a different administration.

That's not unanswerable. What's unanswerable is exactly how much more quickly Hillary would have been all over this and in exactly what way on what date.

Are you really unsure whether Clinton would have run circles around Trump outperforming him? How could Trump have done worse?

i think the big negatives for me with regard to the current administration is that there was a group of folks tasked with handling such events which was disbanded in 2018 (since we had no pandemic, right?) and the CDC (which has it's own set of issues) also had it's budget cut by said administration.

That's American Republicanism. That's what they do. If Americans keep voting for these people, they should expect more of the same.

Myself, I do not live in the past. I only care abut what Trump does now, and moving forward.

The past informs us of the future. Expect more of the same from Trump.

This is not the time to rank on Trump, as it solves nothing.

This is not the time to whitewash or protect Trump. This is the time to acknowledge that he was a mistake and continues to be a problem for America and Americans. How many more Americans will die for believing Trump and getting the infection altogether up front? America needs to learn to stop listening to that man.

So I'd say that this is very much a time to reflect on what went wrong and how to do better next time.

Determining what went wrong in the past helps us to not make the same mistakes again in the future. There's an election coming up. People obviously didn't know what a mistake Trump was. Those that had the foresight and judgment to recognize this before November 2016 don't need to learn. The others do before they vote again.

Besides, how do you know any other president could have handled it better? You cannot know, unless you are the all-knowing God

We can know many things about the future with varying degrees of certitude without being gods. Extrapolating from the past is often helpful. Simply being a human being is enough to know that Hillary Clinton would have handled this matter more intelligently. She's more intelligent than Trump. And honest. And competent.

I do not think that his character matters at this point, all that matters is his behavior, how he handles this pandemic.

His character always matters, and will determine his behavior. Expect more lies because his character isn't good enough for him to care. Expect more ignorance. Expect more damage to America because of him. America very much needs qualified leadership at a time when all it has is incompetence. It needs a seasoned captain at the helm, not this incompetent narcissist.

Expect much more theft and violence, and need for police and military because the crisis is more sever than it needed to be. Trump's character will matter again then. And I think we know how he'll respond - more lies, division, and misinformation just when the opposite is needed. He'll be angry like a tyrant rather than reassuring and presidential.

Yours is the mistake that white evangelical Christian American made in 2016 and again in Alabama when the credibly accused pedophile Roy Moore was narrowly defeated by people who did care about character.

But with 2020 vision (hmmm), it's clear that if the response was not "only a few and it will go away soon" but rather listening to those that said it was likely to spread, we would have been miles ahead.

The people who trusted Trump will die in greater proportion than those who understood not to listen to him since so many of them will be in the initial peak when they will more likely to be be sent home from overcrowded hospitals and left to fend for themselves.

I do not trust numbers from China

You shouldn't. Nor those from America.

the seven digit death toll figure is likely WAY high

Do the math. A million Americans is about 1/325th of the nation's population. Any (infectivity rate x fatality rate) product equaling 0.003 or more will translate to a million deaths. If the death rate is 1% (0.01) and the infectivity rate is 30% (0.30), there's a million deaths.

And these are conservative estimates. What if the infectivity rate is closer to 50% and the fatality rate closer to 3%?

50% (0.5) x 3% (0.03) is 0.015. That's 5 million deaths (about 1/60th of all Americans).

You can do the math for 70% and 5% yourself.

We don't know what these variables will be, but a million Americans is a conservative estimate. It uses lower numbers than any being bandied about at this time.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
You shouldn't. Nor those from America.

I see no evidence of the CDC doing a cover up. I just wouldn't listen to any politician or media talking head in the US out of habit. I have even tuned out leaders in Canada. Everything they say can be found in greater detail on government websites and talking to my GP.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The past informs us of the future.
Not always.
Expect more of the same from Trump.
Maybe or maybe not. I do not suggest we should get our hopes up, just allow it to unfold. He has a lot of advisors advising him so hopefully he will listen.
This is not the time to whitewash or protect Trump. This is the time to acknowledge that he was a mistake and continues to be a problem for America and Americans. How many more Americans will die for believing Trump and getting the infection altogether up front? America needs to learn to stop listening to that man.
I am not whitewashing or protecting Trump but pointing out the mistakes he has made in the past only takes the focus off the present and the future.

I just try to be logical. If he was a mistake there is nothing we can do about that until the next election. Meanwhile he is still the president so has the power to make certain decisions.
So I'd say that this is very much a time to reflect on what went wrong and how to do better next time.

The experts will be doing that later, I heard that on the news. Now is not the time, now is the time to address the national emergency.
Determining what went wrong in the past helps us to not make the same mistakes again in the future. There's an election coming up. People obviously didn't know what a mistake Trump was. Those that had the foresight and judgment to recognize this before November 2016 don't need to learn. The others do before they vote again.
In the context of the upcoming election I agree with you, it would be best f they learn, but how can that be accomplished?
We can know many things about the future with varying degrees of certitude without being gods. Extrapolating from the past is often helpful. Simply being a human being is enough to know that Hillary Clinton would have handled this matter more intelligently. She's more intelligent than Trump. And honest. And competent.

If you are comparing the two, I would have to agree. Intelligence, honesty and competency are very important qualities. By that is water over the bridge now.
His character always matters, and will determine his behavior. Expect more lies because his character isn't good enough for him to care. Expect more ignorance. Expect more damage to America because of him. America very much needs qualified leadership at a time when all it has is incompetence. It needs a seasoned captain at the helm, not this incompetent narcissist.

Expect much more theft and violence, and need for police and military because the crisis is more severe than it needed to be. Trump's character will matter again then. And I think we know how he'll respond - more lies, division, and misinformation just when the opposite is needed. He'll be angry like a tyrant rather than reassuring and presidential.
To his credit, he has been more reassuring and presidential lately. You can choose to believe that is an act if you want to, but I think there was some sincerity underneath the narcissism.

I never said I do not care about his character, and I know character determines behavior, but I am realistic so I know there is nothing I can do about his character or his behavior.

We will see how it unfolds. I have no great expectations but I still live in the United States so I have a bigger reason to worry than you do.

Do you like Joe Biden? I like him and of course it is like night and day compared to Trump. I also like Bernie Sanders but I do not expect him to get the nomination.

I know that atheists do not believe in God but I think they should pray to God just this once,
before the election, because there is no reason to believe that God does not listen to atheists.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
His policies have More Americans Gasping Air. You'll be breathing so much you'll get tired of breathing.



No, that means that more will die than needed to. The curve will have two parts: an initial spike followed by a slower, more prologed period of contagion with lower numbers sick at any given time. The first group will have a higher death rate, since disproportionately more of them will be unable to receive potentially life-saving care.



The Trump administration may simply be ordering the CDC to publish false statistics, something he has no control over with the others. We should expect that given what we know of Trump, his values, and his history of removing or altering inconvenient information on government web sites. Trump is a continual liar. It's unwise to forget that.

Here's a good example of how his administration manipulates public information in support of business interests and agains those of ordinary people: https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envi...on-removing-climate-change-epa-online-website



Assuming that we are talking about Americans, why were they overseas? Why are Americans currently quarantined on cruise ships? For every person that would answer that it is because they considered the threat a hoax, that's one you can hang on Trump.



But you'll have to do it with Trump in opposition. Expect him to resist error identification and correction if he thinks it reflects poorly on him, and he will.

And I think it is to excuse lack of preparedness, or more correctly, a refusal to simply say that Trump failed America. No Trump voter wants to say that "yeah, maybe I shouldn't have voted for that man - maybe I damaged my country and fellow Americans."

I don't expect anybody at all to say, "I should have known better than to vote for a person with those values, and maybe the people who realized what a problem this man was earlier than I did weren't deranged after all. Maybe they had a point objecting so strenuously to this degree of immorality and incompetence."

But that's not going to happen. Just comments that deflect from that.



That's not unanswerable. What's unanswerable is exactly how much more quickly Hillary would have been all over this and in exactly what way on what date.

Are you really unsure whether Clinton would have run circles around Trump outperforming him? How could Trump have done worse?



That's American Republicanism. That's what they do. If Americans keep voting for these people, they should expect more of the same.



The past informs us of the future. Expect more of the same from Trump.



This is not the time to whitewash or protect Trump. This is the time to acknowledge that he was a mistake and continues to be a problem for America and Americans. How many more Americans will die for believing Trump and getting the infection altogether up front? America needs to learn to stop listening to that man.

So I'd say that this is very much a time to reflect on what went wrong and how to do better next time.

Determining what went wrong in the past helps us to not make the same mistakes again in the future. There's an election coming up. People obviously didn't know what a mistake Trump was. Those that had the foresight and judgment to recognize this before November 2016 don't need to learn. The others do before they vote again.



We can know many things about the future with varying degrees of certitude without being gods. Extrapolating from the past is often helpful. Simply being a human being is enough to know that Hillary Clinton would have handled this matter more intelligently. She's more intelligent than Trump. And honest. And competent.



His character always matters, and will determine his behavior. Expect more lies because his character isn't good enough for him to care. Expect more ignorance. Expect more damage to America because of him. America very much needs qualified leadership at a time when all it has is incompetence. It needs a seasoned captain at the helm, not this incompetent narcissist.

Expect much more theft and violence, and need for police and military because the crisis is more sever than it needed to be. Trump's character will matter again then. And I think we know how he'll respond - more lies, division, and misinformation just when the opposite is needed. He'll be angry like a tyrant rather than reassuring and presidential.

Yours is the mistake that white evangelical Christian American made in 2016 and again in Alabama when the credibly accused pedophile Roy Moore was narrowly defeated by people who did care about character.



The people who trusted Trump will die in greater proportion than those who understood not to listen to him since so many of them will be in the initial peak when they will more likely to be be sent home from overcrowded hospitals and left to fend for themselves.



You shouldn't. Nor those from America.



Do the math. A million Americans is about 1/325th of the nation's population. Any (infectivity rate x fatality rate) product equaling 0.003 or more will translate to a million deaths. If the death rate is 1% (0.01) and the infectivity rate is 30% (0.30), there's a million deaths.

And these are conservative estimates. What if the infectivity rate is closer to 50% and the fatality rate closer to 3%?

50% (0.5) x 3% (0.03) is 0.015. That's 5 million deaths (about 1/60th of all Americans).

You can do the math for 70% and 5% yourself.

We don't know what these variables will be, but a million Americans is a conservative estimate. It uses lower numbers than any being bandied about at this time.

I don't buy it.
Mrs Revolt is in the health care analysis business,
& has great respect for the CDC, & yet hates Trump.

My wife has been an RN for 35 years. She has commented in past years on the CDC having to constantly try to do more while successive administrations have continued to cut their budget. And that has been done by both Republican and Democratic administrations......
And then there is the panel that was responsible for formulating and implementing pandemic response plan that was disbanded in 2018. Maybe their work was done and the plan was in place.....I don't know........but the evidence so far doesn't seem to bear that out.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Thinking about your post some more...
I can see that disaster/crisis preparedness should be a permanent
cabinet level organization....like a Department Of Peace. Such
matters deserve high level continual attention.

I agree. I would really like to know what their stated objectives were and if they reached any or all of said objectives. I mean, did they write a detailed thousand plus page tome outlining a complete nationwide response to a pandemic and it is now turning yellow in the bottom drawer of some bureaucrat's filing cabinet? Or did they accomplish little to nothing except burning cash by attending seminars and having impromptu meetings at tony Washington restaurants. Not accusing them of either......just would like some daylight here.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
My wife has been an RN for 35 years. She has commented in past years on the CDC having to constantly try to do more while successive administrations have continued to cut their budget. And that has been done by both Republican and Democratic administrations......
And then there is the panel that was responsible for formulating and implementing pandemic response plan that was disbanded in 2018. Maybe their work was done and the plan was in place.....I don't know........but the evidence so far doesn't seem to bear that out.
Let's hope that not only Trump, but ever politician learns
from this that we need a well designed system in place
to deal with pandemics & other crises.
If we're gonna have a big spendy government, it might
as well be really useful to us.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I agree. I would really like to know what their stated objectives were and if they reached any or all of said objectives. I mean, did they write a detailed thousand plus page tome outlining a complete nationwide response to a pandemic and it is now turning yellow in the bottom drawer of some bureaucrat's filing cabinet? Or did they accomplish little to nothing except burning cash by attending seminars and having impromptu meetings at tony Washington restaurants. Not accusing them of either......just would like some daylight here.
I'm thinking of a department with the power, funding & attention to
continually improve its understanding & procedures, which would
include monitoring & educating us ordinary schlubs.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Let's hope that not only Trump, but ever politician learns
from this that we need a well designed system in place
to deal with pandemics & other crises.
If we're gonna have a big spendy government, it might
as well be really useful to us.

If politicians were rational and intelligent, they probably would not be politicians. Sorry for the cynicism. Well, not really.
 
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