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Featured Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 74x12, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I'm trying to better understand your reasoning. In doing so we can clarify where we agree or disagree. I had wondered from a question you had asked me personally whether you presumed Baha'is followed a different God from Jehovah witnesses and therefore were lawless? I agree Satanists and pagans of the Thor worshipping ilk don't follow the God of Abraham.

    Baha'is have laws based on the Teachings of our Prophet Baha'u'llah. Sex is not permissible before marriage. I am a Baha'i and follow that law. So even if you consider that Baha'is follow a different God, we still have laws that have similarities to the laws you follow.
     
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  2. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    It is a terrible thing to presume that a worshipper of God, the true and only God, doesn't. I think that the Baha'is do not commit that sin.
     
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  3. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    We dont expect yours to grow up, but, who knows.
     
  4. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    The story science in a male life is his own story....to contradict self, to be God and Holy.

    Which is spiritual, natural and self present.

    O males used the wisdom of stone and said God O is without beginning for stone did not being creation and it owned no end.....as a science quote.

    For cold space was known to his psyche to have allowed stone to exist.

    If a male spiritually says, I was never meant to be living in the creation, I owned a spirit from eternal he would say....

    I will still exist after my life form is removed...for I am a higher self.

    He never owned that statement about God O for he stood on that stone planet and knew that space cold and deep is what owned stone presence.

    So science had to form a theory about how to use that incident against God...from its highest presence if you thought, all reasons historical as I did.

    To reason why such hatred, human pain and suffering, religious deceit, and inhumanity was lived when it was preached against.

    Made no common sense or logic to a suffering human at all.

    Therefore spiritually I applied a female method to ignore everything a male ever said and studied my own self.

    Yet I had to refer to all of his information to own realization.

    Therefore science is a male brotherhood of same life mind psyche agreement, and it is stated that when the DNA diversified brothers joined together against God in one purpose they would destroy life on Earth....as prophecized.

    And that is science telling science that science will do it....by numbers and maths and predictive circumstance.

    So I learnt that males decided to use space against God the Earth by the knowledge of Satan the black hole stars, that the Sun had already dropped deep into space and exploded them in that pressured mass of cold versus a heated body.

    In modern times our Holy Father, who infers to God in science, but was always just a manifested male spiritual self, our Father, was not his brother, the scientist.

    He manifested with our Mother after new animal spirits did after the ICE AGE...they came back out of the eternal spirit due to changes to the atmosphere.

    Father was not a scientist.

    Spiritually the atmosphere evolved and remassed and cooled, so newly born babies, became higher spiritually in mind and body than original Father.

    Which makes no common sense today as to why higher spiritual males did science again....except for one meaning.

    They preached that the sexual act was coercion, for they never wanted to return to life if you used common sense....for science is to want to apply all reasonings to own the powers to destroy life....so we know scientists own self destructive psyche....which the HOLY brothers realized also.

    So they said self to Father in the past memory, I am spiritually higher than him...….yet by DNA genetic reasoning, evolved. Why they did it again...thinking self was safe...yet they were not the original first spiritual Father in natural life...and were proven wrong...self contradictory.

    They always claim by mind by use of information both by predictive reasoning and also by psyche and conscious spiritual awareness what they believe is rational just to self.

    Why our HOLY brothers decided that they owned no rationality about natural circumstance in life and proved that teaching their own selves.
     
  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for immediately recognising the point being made. It is indeed a terrible and shameful act to speak the words "You are not a believer" to one who is a believer. It is also completely contrary to the Teachings of Christ (Matthew 7:1-4).
     
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  6. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    I guess that means you are the right side up cup.
     
  7. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    It is also against forum rules.
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Lets compare these verses and see if there is contradiction or merely clarification of what was written in Hebrew scripture for Christ's followers who had been neglected and forgotten by their appointed shepherds.....the scriptures used by both Jesus and Paul.

    Matthew 5:7, as part of the Sermon on the Mount...[/COLOR]
    “Happy are the merciful, since they will be shown mercy."

    Romans 9:16-18...

    "So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharʹaoh: “For this very reason I have let you remain: to show my power in connection with you and to have my name declared in all the earth.” 18 So, then, he has mercy on whomever he wishes, but he lets whomever he wishes become obstinate."

    Where is the contradiction? Using God's own example with Pharaoh, the very one who was responsible for the 10 plagues and the annihilation of his entire military force through his own pride and pig-headedness.....did God show mercy to him....NO! Why not?

    Same principle applies to all of us. Mercy is not based on sentiment, but on circumstances that merit justice to be mitigated. Its the difference between reasons and excuses....some people can't tell the difference. God does not accept excuses.

    Matthew 22:37-40...
    "He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”


    Roman 13:9? I think it helps to see that passage in context...How about Romans 13:8-10....
    "Do not owe anything to anyone except to love one another; for whoever loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law. 9 For the law code, “You must not commit adultery, you must not murder, you must not steal, you must not covet,” and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this saying: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore, love is the law’s fulfillment.


    Again...where is the contradiction? The whole of the Law was summed up by the two most important ones....that is why it is called the Law of Love, which Paul here is clearly advocating.


    Luke 20:38...

    "He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.”

    Romans 14:9....

    "For to this end Christ died and came to life again, so that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living."

    Jesus' words in Luke have to do with those who have lived and died faithful to God. Their resurrection is so certain, it is as if to God, they never died at all.
    The "dead" he refers to are those who are spiritually dead. They were never 'living' as far as God was concerned anyway. (Ephesians 2:1)

    Christ being "Lord" over both the living and the dead carries the same connotation. These are the faithful.

    Matthew 23:9...

    "Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One."

    1 Corinthians 4:15...

    "For though you may have 10,000 guardians in Christ, you certainly do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus, I have become your father through the good news."

    The one thing that is clear to me is the use of the term "Father". This is not like the Pope being addressed as "Holy Father".....which is directly disobeying Jesus' words....using the term that way puts the Pope on a level with God. However Paul uses the term in a familial way...he became like a father to his spiritual children because he was the one through whom they learned the truth about God and his Christ. Again, no contradiction.

    Whoever supplied you with this "list" has very little knowledge of the meaning of scripture.....so again interpretation is key. God has never left it up to individuals to interpret his word. He has always assigned them shepherds. He warned that many would go astray and seek their own way.....but the "faithful slave" is there guiding and directing Christ's followers in this time of the end....we just have to know who they are, and accept the spiritual food that they provide. (Matthew 24:45) There is no self service.

    Paul wrote....2 Corinthians 8:11-15
    "So now, also complete what you started to do, so that your readiness to act may be completed according to the means you have available. 12 For if the readiness is there first, it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have. 13 For I do not want to make it easy for others, but difficult for you; 14 but that by means of an equalizing, your surplus at the present time might offset their need, so that their surplus might also offset your deficiency, that there may be an equalizing. 15 Just as it is written: “The person with much did not have too much, and the person with little did not have too little.”


    A sharing of our possessions has always been the foundation of Christianity. It doesn't mean living in austerity or abject poverty, but sharing resources, which JW's have always done. No bulldozers required.
     
  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Jesus says the merciful shall receive mercy. Paul says there's nothing we can do and god will do what he wants as it doesn't depend on effort.

    Really? Jesus says first and foremost is love of god. Paul neglected that party entirely. Then Jesus moves on to love thy neighbor as a second and separate law. Paul says that's really the only one.

    Then why did Christ not say that and instead say he is the lord of specifically the living and not the dead


    Paul used it exactly as the Pope, and regardless Jesus said call no man in earth as farmer for their father is in heaven. Don't do it does not mean it's ok to do it.
    Then why did Jesus say to do it time and time again, when saying that you can't be his disciple if you don't?



     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Tell me what is worse.....telling someone that you believe they are mistaken in their spiritual choices when those choices mean their ultimate life or death....or not saying anything that might cause them to reevaluate what they believe and put themselves on the road to life? According to Jesus we have only two choices. One road leads to life...the other to eternal death. We had better know which road leads where. (Matthew 7:13-14)

    Which is the true man of God in your estimations....the one waving his arms around like a madman trying to warn people of a grave danger around a blind bend....or the one sitting by the roadside, reading his scripture and letting them round that corner and dropping into a ravine to certain death?
    Which would you rather be? And which one would you rather have on the road you were traveling?

    If the warning is given, the man warning others has at least tried to save their lives.....he is not responsible before God because he has done all he can to give them that warning........the other man has done nothing, so he does bear some responsibility before God for his silence.

    To his prophet Ezekiel God said...
    “Son of man, I have appointed you as a watchman to the house of Israel; and when you hear a word from my mouth, you must warn them from me. 18 When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you. 19 But if you warn someone wicked and he does not turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked course, he will die for his error, but you will certainly save your own life. 20 But when someone righteous abandons his righteousness and does what is wrong, I will put a stumbling block before him and he will die. If you did not warn him, he will die for his sin and his righteous acts will not be remembered, but I will ask his blood back from you. 21 But if you have warned the righteous one not to sin, and he does not sin, he will surely keep alive because he was warned, and you will have saved your own life.”

    What do you take away from that?

    If the two greatest commandments are to 'love God with your whole being and to love your neighbor as yourself', what is the point of trying to fulfill the second commandment if you don't worship the true God? He is not the god of Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, or any other form of worship. He is Yahweh, the God of Israel. He has no other name and he will not tolerate the worship of any other gods. (Exodus 20:3) You cannot pick and choose which parts of the Bible to accept and ignore the rest.
    If we are not obedient to his commands, we have no part in God's plans for the future. That is what his word teaches....we can believe it or not. :shrug:
     
  11. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    From my very human and limited experience I would see two options:

    1/ Following teachings based on a very human and obviously flawed person such as Charles Taze.

    Charles Taze Russell - Wikipedia

    Charles Taze's work founded a publishing company that led to the watch tower which has in turn has repeatedly made explicit claims for the future which have never come to pass.

    Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia

    I don't know what you call that but it moves into the category of false prophecy.

    Regardless continuing to regard the leadership of as authoritative and authentic.

    From there imagining you have the only true religion, and labelling everyone's religion as wrong including all your fellow Christians.

    2/ Remaining silent, listening to others and taking the time to properly investigate the truth.

    I choose the second option.
     
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  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That is a lousy interpretation of the situation.
    Do you base this assumption on just one or two verses....what did Paul teach overall that contravened anything Jesus said? Mercy at the final judgment is at God's discretion.....but mercy to those who sinned under law required mitigating circumstances. This was allowed for in the Law. An accidental manslayer e.g. was still guilty under law for taking a life. He had to flee to a "city of refuge" where he was to remain until the death of the High Priest. If he strayed outside of that city, the next of kin of the one whose life was taken, was legally allowed to avenge their death. This was a merciful provision because the life was not taken pre-meditatively or with malice...it was accidental, but still required a penalty because of the sanctity of life.

    Oh please....that is utter hogwash.

    Paul said...Romans 5:8-11...

    "But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more, then, since we have now been declared righteous by his blood, will we be saved through him from wrath. 10 For if when we were enemies we became reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more we will be saved by his life, now that we have become reconciled. 11 Not only that, but we are also rejoicing in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."

    You act as if Paul never expressed love for God. Clearly you have never read all that he wrote, and neither did the one who provided your list.

    For the same reason that he didn't always explain his illustrations to the people in his audience. The apostles often asked for an explanation because his words were for the spiritually minded.

    Paul never used the term except as a familial one. He was never comparing himself to God, which is what Jesus said....."one is you Father...the heavenly one". When Jesus said to "call no man your Father on earth", he was indicating that this was in the spiritual sense because his direct reference was to God....not to 'fathers' in general.


    If Jesus lived by the Hebrew scriptures, which we know he did, then he would have been aware of Solomon's admonition.....Proverbs 30:8-9....

    "Remove untruth and lies far from me.
    Give me neither poverty nor riches.
    Just let me consume my portion of food,
    9 So that I do not become satisfied and deny you and say, “Who is Jehovah?”

    Nor let me become poor and steal and dishonor the name of my God."

    Jesus never advocated either extreme....both lead to trouble.


    He encouraged the rich to downsize because he said we 'cannot slave for two masters.....God and riches'. (Matthew 6:24; Matthew 19:23-24) Christians always provided for their poor brothers. Its about being content with what you have, especially now in a world where materialism is running rampant. Contentment is an art, not swayed by clever advertising. Our needs are very different to our wants.
     
  13. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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  14. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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  15. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Right is right. Wrong isn't right and never will be.
    Isaiah 50:11
    Behold, all you who kindle a fire, who array yourselves with firebrands, walk in the light of your fire and in the firebrands you have lit! This is what you will receive from My hand: You will lie down in a place of torment.
     
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  16. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    From a Baha'i perspective:

    That seeker must, at all times, put his trust in God, must renounce the peoples of the earth, must detach himself from the world of dust, and cleave unto Him Who is the Lord of Lords. He must never seek to exalt himself above any one, must wash away from the tablet of his heart every trace of pride and vain-glory, must cling unto patience and resignation, observe silence and refrain from idle talk. For the tongue is a smoldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endureth a century.

    Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 264-270
     
  17. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    I go by the idea that "what you see is what you get." Jesus said actions matter, Paul says they don't.

    The OT makes for such distinctions. However, this has nothing to do with Jesus saying the merciful will receive mercy - that actions matter - while Paul says that actions don't matter because god will do as he will to whomever he wants.

    Still nothing to do with the contradiction.

    I dont doubt that. What I deny is him stating it as law. Jesus said that is the first and foremost commandment. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. But Paul neglected to include that. Your own words expressed love for god, but not as a commandant.

    Except Jesus specifically stated lord over the living and not the dead, Paul differs and says the living and the dead. Something Jesus himself denied.

    Paul used it like a priest or pope. Jesus said call no man on Earth father. Paul made people do what Jesus told them not to do.
    We know according to biblical accounts that Jesus lived a life of poverty, living by the charity of others. He is also recorded many times having told his followers to follow suit. And he also said its basically impossible for a rich man to get into heaven.
     
  18. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Sorry? How on earth does faith lead to anything? You can use faith to believe in Universe Creating Pixies, and have the exact same justification of anyone else who uses faith.

    Because faith is not a path to knowing. Absolutely not a path to that.
     
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  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Charles Taze Russell was not a prophet and never claimed to be one. We have no prophets except the ones chosen by God, whose words are recorded in scripture. Jesus was God's last prophet and it was Russell's intent, along with a group of like minded ones to examine the scriptures intently to see if Christendom's teachings were founded on scripture or whether they had fallen into the same trap that Judaism had....substituting man-made doctrines for God's word. These men pored over the scripture trying to find the scriptural back up for all of Christendom's doctrines.......they found none. This prompted the group to advertise their findings in a newsletter published across the USA. It was the forerunner of the Watchtower magazine which is still printed today. It outlined the clear teachings of the Bible and exposed Christendom for the "weeds" of Jesus illustration.

    As people began to see the truth of Russell's words, he gained quite a following, debating well known clergy on scripture that they were ill equipped to refute. The groundwork was begun that we believe was foretold in Daniel 12:4-9-10...

    "As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant. . . .Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand."

    It was time for the truth to be told and we believe that God selected the ones who would create the means to have it declared in all the earth, as Jesus said it would be...in Matthew 24:14...
    "And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."
    This was all to take place in "the time of the end" which we believe began with the outbreak of WW 1. All of the features of the sign that Jesus gave to confirm that his return had taken place (Matthew 24:3-14) have all been in evidence since 1914.

    Do we expect Christ's chosen ones to be well received? If the son of God was persecuted and put to death for daring to expose the hypocrisy of his own religious leaders, then would we expect those who have a similar work in this "time of the end" to be well received? No, not according to Jesus. (John 15:18-21)

    Which is exactly what Jesus did. His greatest enemies were his fellow Jews....the leaders of his own religion. They were responsible for his murder.

    Jesus said that the days of his return would be 'just like the days of Noah'. What were the circumstances of Noah's day? Regardless of whether you believe it was a real event or allegory....what is the lesson?

    The earth was filled with violence and immorality because of the rebellious angels that caused wickedness to increase to a shocking degree in those days. We see those levels of violence and immorality again today when we are supposed to be more civilized in this 'age of reason'. Not content to practice it themselves, they do so through their entertainment choices. Young children are raised on a steady diet of violence and immorality on their electronic devices, Hollywood movies and even in their school yards, posting videos on social media to brag about it...

    Noah preached to the people of his day for the whole time that he and his family were constructing the ark. Peter calls him a "preacher of righteousness", but it fell on deaf ears. By the time the ridicule turned to fear, the water was swirling around their knees as they probably tried to get to higher ground. The rain was torrential and relentless for 40 days and nights....nothing outside of that ark survived. What is the lesson?

    Jehovah's day of judgment will not be kind to those who fail to "do the will of the father". (Matthew 7:21-23) No one left knocking on the door of the ark as the water rose, was permitted entry. They had their chance to listen for decades, and then, when they realized that Noah wasn't a deluded fool, it was too late.

    Remaining silent and listening to others is not what God is telling us to do...he is telling us to listen to his son, who is about to return and deal with this wicked world once and for all. Listening to others is just confusing the whole issue. IMO, Baha'i teachings are not in line with Jesus' teachings at all...they are at odds with them.

    Baha'i's seem to be trying to squeeze everyone's religion into one tidy box when that is nothing like what Jesus taught. Jesus himself said..."Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters". We cant have feet in several camps...we have them firmly planted in just one. God has only ever had "one" people, because there is only one God and and one truth.

    To accept a prophet with no credentials at all except a claim to be from God, who demonstrated no abilities that Jesus did, whilst claiming to be Christ returned, is to me quite gullible. No offshoot from Islam will produce the return of the Messiah....The second coming has not yet occurred because we would all be living under the blessings of the Kingdom of God and experiencing the words of Revelation 21:2-4....

    "I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.

    We would not have any human governments ruling over us because God's Kingdom will replace them all. (Daniel 2:44) This has not come to pass yet...but I believe that it will very soon. The world is falling apart at the seams....people are full of trepidation about the future......if Christ has already returned, then he is an abject failure, accomplishing nothing that he promised. :(
     
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  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You have a very warped view of the whole situation IMO....but you can believe whatever you like. Its your life.
     
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