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Featured Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 74x12, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Who can say that Paul was one of those whom Jesus warned against? As Saul, he was an extremely zealous Pharisee; one of those who were totally against Jesus and all that he stood for. But after his conversion and appointment, directly by the resurrected Jesus himself, did Saul continue in his opposition to Christians? Did he begin to sway Christ’s followers away from Jesus’ teachings? Or did he become the target of the same kind of persecution that he had levelled at the followers of Christ before? As a proud Pharisee he would never have become a Christian and made himself the target of derision and persecution from his peers.

    He contributed more to Christian scripture than any other apostle. He was also accepted by the other apostles, who were endowed with Holy Spirit. Since God is the one who inspired scripture, don’t you think that he would have exposed Paul as a fraud and rejected his writings if he was not genuine?

    This is why one has to have faith. You either accept God at his word, trusting that he is powerful enough to record and preserve his instructions for us......or not. It’s our choice.
     
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  2. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Ok, I cant drag it out of you, but you could at
    least just say so rather than talking about
    something else as if it is somehow a response.
     
  3. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Ha. Now whose pantaloons is spinning seemingly out of control!
     
  4. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Short night!
    Off to work.
     
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  5. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    As someone else pointed it out it is often easy to grasp the surface meaning of a verse; but the depth of the meaning is not immediately apparent. And the more you learn the more you correct what you once thought was true. Then you find out you didn't know as much as you thought.
    Basically correct. No one knows except God.
    1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

    2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

    You may know when you have the right interpretation because God gave it to you.

    John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    Because they don't listen --enough-- to God. They make up their own teachings.
    You breathe don't you?
    It's true of all scriptures but I agree with another poster on here that the scriptures are like the layers of an onion. So often enough the surface meaning is not so difficult to grasp; but that doesn't mean you "know" the scripture yet. Because only God knows all the ends and outs of every verse. The holy Spirit can always show us more.

    1 Corinthians 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
     
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  6. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    So if you put spikes on your roof can you blame the birds for not landing there?
    If you change the lock can you blame the old key for not opening the door?
    And if you plant good seed in bad soil is it the seed's fault for not growing?
    So then you can put two cups one right side up and one upside down next to each other. Then dump water on both; which one is filled?
     
  7. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    I would say he probably is due to the many times he contradicts Jesus, showing more anger and less love (so much so that he even encouraged violating to oft repeated command of be fruitful and multiply, which, of course, his sayimg no sex is best prevents covenants with Abraham (and others) that their descendants will be as numerous as the stars). Jesus said he is the way, you go to the father through him, and many will come in his name and many will be decieved.
     
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  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Does this make sense to anyone? Is he claiming that his god is wicked again?
     
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    And I am sensing a theme here too.....those who think independence from the Creator is beneficial, and want to do things their way, not his, usually find out the hard way that independent thinking is not all it’s cracked up to be.
    “I Did It My Way” was a song, applauding a life lived “their way”, but in reality unless people submit to a rule of law, anarchy will prevail. Put all the free thinkers together and ask if this will create the world you all want? Someone has to be in control. Why not the Creator who designed us to look to him for our definition of right and wrong? Can you depend on humans to get that right?

    This might have become the mindset of Christendom, but it was never the mindset of original Christianity. Please don’t confuse them. We are children....infants in comparison to an eternal God. Like it or not, we are his children. But as a good parent, he allows us to learn from experience. He instructs us in the way that is beneficial for us, but he will not prevent us from experiencing the consequences of our own decisions. Free will must have accountability..... that only works if you are a responsible adult.....so many are not. If we are only accountable to ourselves, what does that mean for the irresponsible ones.....and those who must deal with their irresponsible behavior?

    Good for you. But what of those who care little about your life and are only intent on promoting their own......to your detriment? Who do they answer to? What of those who don’t have your responsible attitude or respect for anyone else? If there is no answering to any authority, should there be vigilantes?

    Hierarchies have existed ever since human civilisation began. We are all accountable to someone.....in life, in business, in law, there has to be order, so how do you achieve this by rejecting hierarchies?

    That all sounds nice in theory and is entirely your choice....but all of that only works if you are surrounded by like minded people. If you live in a bubble that the rest of the world does not share, then your attitude seems to be “as long as my life is good, the rest of the world doesn’t matter”....if you think that you are accountable to no one, then try breaking the law, especially in a country with a corrupt legal system.....(who doesn’t have one? Some are just more blatantly corrupt than others.)

    I don’t know how the life you promote is achievable?......on a desert island perhaps.....or some place that is not connected to the rest of the world....? :shrug:
     
    #149 Deeje, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  10. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Hypothetically; Someone invents a way to become invisible. For some reason you must find him. How would you find an invisible man? Wouldn't you look for clues? Maybe he is leaving footprints or something. Cannot God be revealed to us by undeniable circumstances and experiences?

    You can use your senses to keep yourself from falling off a cliff edge. You can use your senses to drive a car or to safely perform a dangerous activity and you'll die if your senses are faulty. So you literally trust your senses with your life. Yet you think you can't sense God? If God can do anything then He can make us sense Him.

    But suppose you're right. You can't trust your mind; then you can't trust any sense because all senses are processed by the mind. Then is science trustworthy? It's based of Empiricism.

    So you're betting everything on it; then what's wrong with the logic of Pascal's wager? Not that I need it because I can sense God.

    Those who are full of doubt are those looking around at the world which is full of confusion. But if you look to God then you will know the truth. That's our only hope in my opinion because Satan has sown his seed in the world and it's full of deception and poison.

    The logic of faith is that it is like when a little brother trusts his older brother to defend him from schoolyard bullies. Or like when people run to a police officer to save them from someone. So why would God make it so that "faith" would save us? Because the devil is real and he is stronger than us and if you don't trust in God then the devil will deceive you. Because only God (and His kingdom) are stronger than satan. That's why God said have faith. Because the illusionist(satan) is putting on his great show.
     
  11. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I’m sorry, I may not be understanding you. Do you mean that I presume to think they do worship the God I worship, or that I think they don’t?

    Actually, I think that many don’t.....some worship Jesus; some on here worship Thor & Odin; some even worship Satan.

    None of those are my God. I (try to) worship Yahweh, the God of the ancient Israelites, the One that Jesus worshipped - John 20:17.
    He requires exclusive devotion - Exodus 20:5-6

    Would you agree that people are inclined to sex w/o marriage? Fornication is forbidden.
     
  12. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Many good points, as usual Deeje. I just wanted to add to this:
    We all live under Laws, don’t we? But, even though they’re imperfect human laws, they’re usually beneficial, designed to protect the population: “Drive 55 (mph)”, etc.
    Jehovah’s are no different. If you really think on them, you can see the benefits, ultimately.
     
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  13. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Word of God is freely proclaimed to all; but receivable by only a heart that is right.

    But ... people's hearts can change.
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Show me where he contradicts Jesus.


    When did Paul ever promote no sex except to uphold the laws of God? These were the laws that Jesus also upheld as a devout Jew. They included homosexual acts, bestiality, and any illicit sex (practiced outside of lawful marriage). He advocated singleness as a way to serve God ‘undivided’ and he was correct. Single people can devote more time and attention to the service of their God. But he never insisted that people should not marry. It is Gods arrangement for human reproduction. Though Paul was unmarried, some of the other apostles were married. How hard must that have been on their wives?


    Yes, many are deceived....because it suits them to shut out an uncomfortable truth. The Bible itself condemns them whilst they promote nothing that Jesus taught. Christendom is NOT Christianity.....how can it be when they are so divided and collectively more concerned with being ‘friends with the world’ than they are being friends of God? (James 4:4) Why do you think that Jesus would say that “few” are on the road to life? (Matthew 7:13-14) The ‘cramped and narrow way to life’ is not for the faint hearted. Some want to bring in a bulldozer to make it easier......
     
  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    This is nonsense because it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy when people do not agree with you. You need to do better than this. If your God is real he needs to do better than that. You are in effect claiming that your God is evil.
     
  16. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Now go back and read your last paragraph again. When big brother doesn't bother to defend little bro in the schoolyard, little brother starts to lose trust. That happens and it's normal. But when God doesn't answer prayers (as millions who've died with prayer on their lips might testify -- if only they hadn't died), believers try to find reasons to excuse God and go right on believing. I find that bewildering.
     
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  17. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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  18. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    I assume then since you have not renounced all of your worldly possessions and interests you too need this bulldozer?
     
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  19. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    People's heart's should change. It is called growing toward God/righteousness.

    I might like to do a little bit of trolling. Please.

    The JWs are so very funny to trust The Governing Body Of Jehovah's Witnesses to interpret for them. Maybe so very sad that it is leftover very funny.
     
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  20. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The approach each person takes to their faith is one issue. Another is what exactly is the foundation of that faith? There are many factors to consider here, not just whether one is either lukewarm or somewhat of a zealot.

    1/ What scriptures if any do the practitioners of a given faith rely on. For example the New Testament, Tanakh, Quran, Buddhist Pali Canon, Vedas or some other text? Some religions have no scriptures, for example pagan religions.

    2/ To what extent do practitioners of a religion rely on reason, science, the knowledge and wisdom of others, and the wisdom acquired through experience (in other words what any other sensible person would do).

    But there are tried and tested methods. Reason, experience and considering the advice of others whom we respect work well for most of us. It is exactly the same process for may theists who in addition may glean wisdom and inspiration from their sacred writings.

    It is true that a medical doctor can not continue to practice medicine if his methods are out of date. He will soon come to the attention of regulatory authorities who will rightly evaluate his practice and either make recommendations for continuing professional development that he updates his practice or deem him incompetent and revoke his licence to practice.

    The problem with many religious practitioners is there are no consistent regulatory body and where there is that body itself is out of date. So we may have a Christian who insists that the earth is no older than 10,000 years old based on literal interpretation of Genesis, yet totally disregards the overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary. The acceptance or denial of science is just as much a religious principle as being truthful, courteous and loving towards others.

    I've addressed that point above.

    In regards the New Testament, which is the book the OP follows, it is the most studied book in the world over the last few centuries. Given how long ago its 27 books were written it is remarkable how it has stood the test of time and remains a credible source of inspiration and guidance to so many throughout the world. However there will always be limitations in applying the learnings of what was written down two thousand years ago to our modern era.
     
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